Azeroth: The Silent War and the Illusion of Peace [Warcraft AU Worldbuilding]

Kylia Quilor said:
Unlike with some of the factions we've explored so far, and will going forward, I don't actually enjoy spending time in and around Ironforge, so... less exposure to begin with.
I hope you don't mind me asking -- and, of course, you don't have to answer -- but I'm curious, given Ironforge was probably the non-neutral city I spent the most time in back when I played WoW: why?

(I've been enjoying the... story? Is this a story? Well, whatever this is, I've been enjoying it for a while, by the way; thank you for writing!)

(Oh, and while I assume you've heard of it already, as I'm commenting anyway and think it's both quite good and not lacking relevance here, I thought I'd provide a link to make sure you at least had a chance to look at Travels through Azeroth and Outland.)
 
I hope you don't mind me asking -- and, of course, you don't have to answer -- but I'm curious, given Ironforge was probably the non-neutral city I spent the most time in back when I played WoW: why?

(I've been enjoying the... story? Is this a story? Well, whatever this is, I've been enjoying it for a while, by the way; thank you for writing!)
Well, I don't like dwarves, to put it bluntly. Dwarves are, 99% of the time, my least favorite fantasy 'good guy' race (i.e. like how in D&d 3.5 there's the 7 standard player races, in Warcraft the Alliance was human elf dwarf and gnome originally technically, etc). The tropes they tend to represent, the narratives they tend to use, and the look they tend to have prototypically just isn't that interesting to me. Add to the fact that the Ironforge are without significant baggage, flaws, dark sides or negative issues (a common problem with all the Alliance, but the Ironforge are the worst of it, since there's not even much you can draw from to make them more interesting in that sense. The NElves and Stormwind and even the Draenei have things you can work with to make more flawed and problematic) and they're just kinda boring even among dwarves.

I tend to just call it a 'Project' in my head, since yeah, story or 'fic' in the conventional sense doesn't apply. There are supposed to be narrative parts eventually, when I get that far, but that'll probably not happen until like 2030, so 😅

Glad you liked it!
 
Ah, thanks. And interesting point about the Bronzebeard/Ironforge dwarves not having much in the way of interesting flaws; I don't believe I'd thought about that before, but now that you mention it, aye, nothing much is coming to mind. I mean, there's the thing with Moira... but even that's more "This one Bronzebeard, who just happened to be the king's daughter, joined the Dark Irons" rather than an Ironforge thing.

(Though, personally, IIRC I only ever had a banker/auction-house-interacter dwarf character. Those, as I recall, I levelled them up and scrounged gear enough to kit them out looking like a Warcraft III rifledwarf.

Instead, I was there because, in both my periods of playing WoW, my main was a gnome. A race that, now you've gotten me thinking about it in those terms, definitely did have significant baggage, what with the whole, you know, Gnomeregan thing.
Not that Blizzard did much with that. Bits, here and there, sure, buuut not much. And at least the blood elves didn't get turned into comic relief, and got to actually have their own active city despite it being way off out of the way.)

(Oh, and I think I heard that, at some point after I stopped playing, some lost gnome city, which was also an instance, was found, and after that plotline Gelbin Mekkatorque (sp? It's been a while, sorry.) ended up becoming king of all gnomes, somehow. A somehow that, IIRC, didn't actually involved the voters. I kind of wonder if Blizzard just at some point forgot that Gnomeregan was an elective monarchy.)

(Oh, heh, though this has reminded me of some thoughts I had a while back here, IIRC before I finally, after years of lurking, made an SV account: if the Alliance drags its feet too much on retaking Gnomeregan, resources needed elsewhere, you know, and it just happens to keep the gnomes as basically a dependent client of the dwarves, well. Not like there's actually a war on with the Ghostlands Pact, is there? Surely, if some gnomes wanted to see if there were any good samaritans up north who might feel like helping the gnomes out of the goodness of their hearts, there'd be nothing wrong with that, right? And if such pure-hearted folk were found and the gnomes, to make it easier for them to ship supplies in, were to give members of the Ghostlands Pact access to airbases and supply depots in western Dun Morough (sp?, see previous), well, aren't we all friends here? And that spirit of friendship is why some of Gnomeregan's top people are now in Quel'Thalas, helping about a fellow recently-badly-damaged civilization that uses arcane magic a lot -- and they've got some very interesting confidential military magical research they assure us is intended to be used against the Lich King, but they asked us, as friends, not to spoil the surprise yet. Of course, though, we gnomes only need to look for friends so far away because our nearby friends are so busy with other things, but don't worry! We're sure plotting war against the peaceful orcs on the other side of the ocean is very important, so don't mind silly friendly little old us over here...
No idea if that's going to happen in this, but it seemed like an interesting and somewhat amusing possibility. :D)

Kylia Quilor said:
I tend to just call it a 'Project' in my head, since yeah, story or 'fic' in the conventional sense doesn't apply.
Ah, thanks.

Kylia Quilor said:
There are supposed to be narrative parts eventually, when I get that far, but that'll probably not happen until like 2030, so 😅
Ah well. :D
('Tis the way it goes, sometimes.)

Kylia Quilor said:
Thanks! And aye, the fact that I got bored of WoW, twice, already indicated that I was somewhat dissatisfied with it, but there's a lot of stuff in it I'm interested in. It's just that the game, ah. Didn't seem likely to explore much of it. And occasionally (and as I understand it, possibly even more after I stopped playing for the second and likely final time) just decided that things I found interesting nope, didn't exist anymore, too bad.

Like, the Old Gods, for instance. My understanding is that current lore has them first arriving at and attacking Azeroth after the Titans had already done a fair bit of on the place, and being only the servants of alien beings who seek to snuff out all life or something like that. So... great. The Burning Legion, but with more tentacles and explicit insanity. Wooo.

Whereas, what I remember being the lore at one point was that the Old Gods were there first. Hence their name: they are quite literally the gods of pre-Titan Azeroth. Which was a different world, hostile to life as we know it, life as the Titans prefer it, but did, in fact, have flourishing civilizations of its own. Then the Titans showed up, decided they didn't like the place, smashed those civilizations, locked the Old Gods up, and only didn't destroy them utterly because the Old Gods had managed to basically chain themselves to the rock the Titans wanted to make a new Titanformed world on, and the Titans were confident enough in the prisons to proceed with that anyway. And so many millennia pass, and the situation now is that we have the Old Gods and their followers -- including survivors/descendants of the species from their rule -- who were legitimately here first and were attacked unprovoked by the Titans, who maybe weren't actually so capital-G Good as they portrayed themselves to us. But we also have a world mostly inhabited by descendants of the Titans' creations, even if many of them have been influenced by the Old Gods. We're not to blame for the Titans' actions, and don't we have a right to life, too? But because Titan-descended life and Old God-associated life have different preferred/required environments and ways of living, we have a morally grey conflict. Further complicated by grievances on both sides, and, of course, there's a lot of Titan stuff still lying around -- some of it still able to think and act, and wanting to do so on the Titans' orders. Is peaceful coexistence possible, if the past can be overcome, or are we doomed to a tragic struggle, to either perish nastily ourselves or finally finish off a world that was just trying to defend itself? Can the Old Gods be destroyed without taking Azeroth with them? And how does this knowledge coming to light change our societies? Is it even believed? What of, say, the dwarves who have placed great store in their Titanic origins? How do the dragons approach this?

Imagine what they could have done with all that potential!

But, nope. Scary Always Chaotic Evil tentacled monsters from outer space. Want to kill all humans/orcs/insert-playable-species-here. Go get twenty-four of your friends together and kill them over and over again for loot, and don't worry about any moral implications because we've made sure there aren't any.

And every troll city we have in game is ruined, uniformly hostile, or both, the few survivors of a massive disaster and recently lost homeland stemming from a drama of betrayal are comic relief, the other group of survivors of a recent national trauma have little agency in their own story and had their prince go from an interesting character to a raid boss palling around with demons, the free undead are demonstrating that Actually Dark Is Evil After All (I did, I admit, run a character through the Forsaken Cataclysm starting zones and found the war interesting and fun to play through in its own way, but that was already kind of "um", with Sylvanas's character assassination getting worse as things proceeded, as I understand it.)...
(Also, I know someone who's an Arthas fan who was not happy about how Shadowlands treated him, but I don't know much about that personally. I'm sure there are many such grievances I'm not aware/thinking of, though.)

...Anyway, I'm glad, here but far from only here, that we have fanfiction. :D
 
(Oh, and I think I heard that, at some point after I stopped playing, some lost gnome city, which was also an instance, was found, and after that plotline Gelbin Mekkatorque (sp? It's been a while, sorry.) ended up becoming king of all gnomes, somehow. A somehow that, IIRC, didn't actually involved the voters. I kind of wonder if Blizzard just at some point forgot that Gnomeregan was an elective monarchy.)
What happened is that the last King of the Gnomes was found, still alive, having led his followers to some glorious mechanical paradise where they could all become robots again. Gelbin still has the title King of all Gnomes, but it is a meaningless title due to the fact that it his position as High Tinker that holds power. It would be like if Queen Elizabeth got elected Prime Minister somehow. She'd have power again, but not because she's Queen. (Though as far as I understand how this works, you can't actually be a royal and serve as PM so)

(Oh, heh, though this has reminded me of some thoughts I had a while back here, IIRC before I finally, after years of lurking, made an SV account: if the Alliance drags its feet too much on retaking Gnomeregan, resources needed elsewhere, you know, and it just happens to keep the gnomes as basically a dependent client of the dwarves, well. Not like there's actually a war on with the Ghostlands Pact, is there? Surely, if some gnomes wanted to see if there were any good samaritans up north who might feel like helping the gnomes out of the goodness of their hearts, there'd be nothing wrong with that, right? And if such pure-hearted folk were found and the gnomes, to make it easier for them to ship supplies in, were to give members of the Ghostlands Pact access to airbases and supply depots in western Dun Morough (sp?, see previous), well, aren't we all friends here? And that spirit of friendship is why some of Gnomeregan's top people are now in Quel'Thalas, helping about a fellow recently-badly-damaged civilization that uses arcane magic a lot -- and they've got some very interesting confidential military magical research they assure us is intended to be used against the Lich King, but they asked us, as friends, not to spoil the surprise yet. Of course, though, we gnomes only need to look for friends so far away because our nearby friends are so busy with other things, but don't worry! We're sure plotting war against the peaceful orcs on the other side of the ocean is very important, so don't mind silly friendly little old us over here...
No idea if that's going to happen in this, but it seemed like an interesting and somewhat amusing possibility
Certainly an interesting idea. :rofl:

but there's a lot of stuff in it I'm interested in. It's just that the game, ah. Didn't seem likely to explore much of it. And occasionally (and as I understand it, possibly even more after I stopped playing for the second and likely final time) just decided that things I found interesting nope, didn't exist anymore, too bad.
That's a mood and a half.

Whereas, what I remember being the lore at one point was that the Old Gods were there first. Hence their name: they are quite literally the gods of pre-Titan Azeroth. Which was a different world, hostile to life as we know it, life as the Titans prefer it, but did,
That's still the canon. The timeline of events is something to the effect of: Void Lords see titans. Void Lords jealous of TItans. Void Lords throw a bajillion Old Gods out into the multiverse. Four land on Azeroth and do their thing.

Milennia later, Titans arrive on Azeroth and try to get rid of Old Gods.
 
Kylia Quilor said:
What happened is that the last King of the Gnomes was found, still alive, having led his followers to some glorious mechanical paradise where they could all become robots again. Gelbin still has the title King of all Gnomes, but it is a meaningless title due to the fact that it his position as High Tinker that holds power. It would be like if Queen Elizabeth got elected Prime Minister somehow. She'd have power again, but not because she's Queen. (Though as far as I understand how this works, you can't actually be a royal and serve as PM so)
Ah, thanks! And I'm a bit embarrassed I forgot about the the details of the High Tinker title -- but, like I said, it's been a while.
(Heh, I remember one car ride when I pretty much recited an overview of the history of Azeroth to my mom from memory. Might be able to still piece together some of it, the broad strokes, but I'd at least be a lot less confident in what I was saying now than I was all those years ago.)

Kylia Quilor said:
Certainly an interesting idea.
You know, like the Vulcan Bridge thing.
Only the bridge is an entire city packed with knowledge and technology and strategically located, and the people asking for help have a bunch of powerful mages and brilliant engineers, not to mention either a rather good covert ops group or the potential for one, depending on whether it's been founded yet, instead of just the population of a small former mining town.

Kylia Quilor said:
That's a mood and a half.
[nods]
And I think I recall that part of why I quit the second time was when I started increasingly failing to suspend my disbelief that what my character was doing meant anything. I think it may have been a mistake, at least for how I like to play the game, to increasingly treat the PCs as Legendary Heroes at the higher levels and in the later expansions. Because Random Adventurer #786345678345? Sure, she can run around having adventures, doing dungeons, getting loot, etc., and it's not too hard to ignore that she doesn't have that much real influence on things -- because if the game mechanics, the levels and such, are ignored, she's just not that highly placed. Likewise, there are plenty of others like her, and sure, the player may know that they're actually all running the same dungeons, that that boss has already been killed many, many times... but if the PC isn't treated like it's a big deal, it's easier to ignore that it maybe should be. But if NPCs start referring to her as the famous mage Playercharactsia, who's one of the first people world leaders call on to solve their problems... well, if we have so much influence, why are we still so much on rails? Why can't we say "Actually, Your Majesty, all due respect of course, but from my long experience on the ground, I think you may be lacking certain information that would alter your planning..."? Why can't we shape the story and world more, the way we'd be able to if we were playing a character that prominent in a tabletop game with a live GM? And what about all these other people, who out of character I know are getting the same treatment? And, if I'm this famous hero now... what about those dungeon bosses from low levels? Sure, in game mechanics terms they weren't much to write home about, but in the lore some of them were pretty significant. But, no, we can't make decisions; we can't alter the course of events. For all that we're told we have the ears of the kings and chiefs of the world, we can't attempt diplomacy when we're told to kill, or assassination when we think our leader's blind to the evil of the person they're negotiating with. The conflict between the Alliance and the Horde will never end, never even, whatever form the conflict takes, really shift in balance between the sides, because it's fundamental to the game. And there's always going to be a new, bigger threat. Killed the Lich King? Great, now the world's at pe-- and then Deathwing attacked. Killed him? Well, now there actually has been some change, as the former leader of the Horde and his splinter faction -- no, don't be silly, of course you can't join them even if you've been roleplaying a fanatical Garrosh loyalist who wouldn't actually change their mind here -- is summoning an Old God! Now he's doing something with time travel and an alternate version of a different planet I still don't fully understand, but he's got an even bigger army! Ah, and now the Legion is showing up again, better go beat them up some more. Wow, now even the afterlife is in danger. The threats will never really ratchet down, because, what, are the Great Heroes supposed to go back to killing rats in an inn's basement? There'll always be something bigger, and whatever it is, some things will never really change, and the things that do change will be totally out of the players' control even when they logically shouldn't be.

And an MMORPG requires either a fair bit of suspension of disbelief, to ignore that not only has that boss been killed already, they've been killed already multiple times by you because they've not dropped the item you wanted yet, or just not caring about the roleplaying aspect and going in to make one group of pixels project another group of pixels towards a third group of pixels, which then change to pixels portraying an explosion as a number goes up. Which, don't get me wrong, can be fun! But I like roleplaying, and there are plenty of other games out there offering roleplaying and/or pew pew pretty well, ones that don't require a monthly subscription fee or hold out the threat of an update retconning something I liked.
(Or the company I'm repeatedly paying to play their game doing something that makes me question whether I actually want to still be giving them money, but I got out of WoW long before that applied there.)

And for Warcraft well, in fanfiction, maybe I still can't change the story, but I don't expect shouting advice to the characters to do anything, unlike when I'm playing those characters and ostensibly defining who they are and what they'd do. The thing that finally got me to make an account on Sufficient Velocity was a Warcraft quest, where I actually do have at least some influence to create real, sensible change -- but I do also know that I'm not the only one defining the characters, and if they do something different than what I'd have had them do? That's not me being railroaded. And I've played some of the Warcraft mod for CKII, which has its limits but also it's own kind of freedom.

...Er. That's a bit of a wall of text up there isn't it? Sorry.
...Though, yes, does indeed seem to be rather a mood and a half, possibly more than a half. :D

Kylia Quilor said:
That's still the canon. The timeline of events is something to the effect of: Void Lords see titans. Void Lords jealous of TItans. Void Lords throw a bajillion Old Gods out into the multiverse. Four land on Azeroth and do their thing.

Milennia later, Titans arrive on Azeroth and try to get rid of Old Gods.
Oh! Well, thanks; that's not quite as bad as I thought, it sounds like.
[looks up the Void Lords]
Wowpedia said:
Merciless and cruel beyond imagination, they seek only to twist reality into a realm of eternal torment,[2] and ultimately to devour all matter and energy and the universe itself.
...I see that they're still Always Chaotic Evil, though. Because moral complexity would just confuse people, of course.
(And sure, sure, it can be useful to have an Evil Faction... but WoW already had that. Did I miss some character development for the Burning Legion that made them a complex group raising a number of genuinely good points? You know, the Burning Legion, the already-extant group rampaging across the universe causing great suffering and destruction (The driving force behind the First, Second, and Third Wars, to list just some of the local examples!) and aiming to unmake the world? I'm pretty sure I didn't.)
 
Well, you sort of did actually miss something for the Burning Legion. Namely, that they still exist inside reality and the Void Lords don't. Sargeras's whole schtick was that he believed the risk of a void-tainted Titan was so great, the danger they posed so immense, that it was better to wipe reality clean and start fresh. Life started once, it could start again, but this time without the taint of the Void.

Granted, that's not all that great a design choice by Blizzard, but there's nothing wrong with different flavors of Always Chaotic Evil anyway, not inherently.

And yes, you're big block of text pretty much encapsulates all my issues with WoW as an MMO. MMOs, by their nature, are generally terrible vehicles for storytelling. There's no way to give the players meaningful choice in the direction of the narrative.
 
Well, I don't like dwarves, to put it bluntly. Dwarves are, 99% of the time, my least favorite fantasy 'good guy' race (i.e. like how in D&d 3.5 there's the 7 standard player races, in Warcraft the Alliance was human elf dwarf and gnome originally technically, etc). The tropes they tend to represent, the narratives they tend to use, and the look they tend to have prototypically just isn't that interesting to me. Add to the fact that the Ironforge are without significant baggage, flaws, dark sides or negative issues (a common problem with all the Alliance, but the Ironforge are the worst of it, since there's not even much you can draw from to make them more interesting in that sense. The NElves and Stormwind and even the Draenei have things you can work with to make more flawed and problematic) and they're just kinda boring even among dwarves.


Well there was that thing with Magni Bronzebeard being kind of sexist that led to his daughter becoming Queen of the Dark Irons.

And then there was that whole mess with the Alliance Dwarfs desecrating Tauren burial sights.
 
Well there was that thing with Magni Bronzebeard being kind of sexist that led to his daughter becoming Queen of the Dark Irons.

And then there was that whole mess with the Alliance Dwarfs desecrating Tauren burial sights.
The first doesn't appear to be endemic to the dwarves as a whole, and while sexism is bad, the worst we see is 'I won't name my daughter heir', not the kind of full scale, truly malevolent sexism that makes for a dark side of a faction.

And as for the latter, that's not present in Ironforge, so it's again not necessarily a quality of dwarven society I can actually work with. My contrast I can work with the fact that Stormwind has out of touch nobles so bad you got a Defias Brotherhood, that the Gnomes are desperate to reclaim their homes and that one of their number did that whole radiation bombing thing that fucked up stuff, and the Night Elves (though not part of the Alliance) have the whole 'natural savagery and the arrogance that comes of immortality' going for them, as something I can work with to explore a dark side.

Any potential for an Ironforge Dark side was basically outsourced to the Dark Iron and the Wildhammer
 
I get what you mean. In WoW I always thought it was weird how the dwarves were this advanced industrial power with tanks, that was untouched by all the wars, but never really took the spotlight. Gnomes got a lot more focus, and ended up being the tech-savvy race. They just don't DO anything. And I feel like dwarf questgivers tended to be drunks or something, race just got no respect.

I think there's possibilities, though. The Explorer's League could be a kind of British Museum, brushing aside concerns from ancestor-worshipping Horde factions for the sake of archeology. *They* were the titan-appointed stewards of the Earth, after all, they're just fulfilling their divine mandate. Maybe take that further, and say that they have a right to oversee and manage natural resources.
 
Kylia Quilor said:
Well, you sort of did actually miss something for the Burning Legion. Namely, that they still exist inside reality and the Void Lords don't. Sargeras's whole schtick was that he believed the risk of a void-tainted Titan was so great, the danger they posed so immense, that it was better to wipe reality clean and start fresh. Life started once, it could start again, but this time without the taint of the Void.
Ah, thanks.
...Though I'm pretty sure that wasn't his schtick in the lore back when I was still playing...

Kylia Quilor said:
Granted, that's not all that great a design choice by Blizzard, but there's nothing wrong with different flavors of Always Chaotic Evil anyway, not inherently.
Not inherently, no, but it seems a waste in this case.

Kylia Quilor said:
And yes, you're big block of text pretty much encapsulates all my issues with WoW as an MMO. MMOs, by their nature, are generally terrible vehicles for storytelling. There's no way to give the players meaningful choice in the direction of the narrative.
Yeah. Even a single-player CRPG, while having nothing like the potential for impact of a live-GMed tabletop game, can take advantage of its finiteness to offer the player some ability to change things. Kill a character, they stay dead for that playthrough; save them from death, they're not dead, at least yet. That can have major ripples programmed in, up until the "The End" appears. But an MMO? Of just the four possibilities from those choices, several million people make each? And now each of those different states has to be somehow handled, expansion after expansion, into the indefinite future, along with all the others? Yeah, no.

And it's also hard to create a character in advance who'll fit the story, the way one could do with a single-player CRPG, because the story keeps evolving and growing even if retcons are discounted. Your character was carefully crafted to be able to naturally follow the game's rails anyway, rendering them invisible -- and then Blizzard sends an NPC you were loyal to to a different faction, explicitly with some followers from yours, that the character you made would definitely have joined? Well, that's your problem to figure out, if you can. Or just make a new character to fit the new story.

Even "Well, my character would have X instead of Y, or done Z offscreen between A and B, and even though that's not supported by the game, it's not incompatible with the game's events, so I'll imagine that having happened" can fall afoul of new developments. Your character backstory includes a group that was harmlessly out of the way when you made the character, only for them to become the main villains two expansions later, without changing such that your character wouldn't still side with them? Tough.

For a drastic contrast, in the first campaign of my RPG group, at one point, as one of the villains was making a dramatic just-in-time escape from us in an ornithopter, one of us lifted a rifle and just took a potshot out of frustration. Basically no chance of it doing anything, given the circumstances, but we rolled for it anyway.
Major crit.
Ornithopter goes down in flames, along with one of the main villains, much earlier than expected.
And the GM goes with it. That one random rifle shot, which no one expected to do anything at all other than reduce an ammunition count by one, reshaped the rest of the campaign. The conspiracy members started turning on each other, because none of them believed that it could possibly have been a single random rifle shot that shouldn't even have hit, much less taken down the ornithopter. We ended up allying with part of the conspiracy against another part, launching an unauthorized assault on a compound in Guatemala (in a game where we started as alternate-universe LAPD officers), and having to flee to Vanuatu at the end of the campaign, plans to liberate the Mars colony at least temporarily on hold.

Kylia Quilor said:
and the Night Elves (though not part of the Alliance) have the whole 'natural savagery and the arrogance that comes of immortality' going for them, as something I can work with to explore a dark side
For one thing, I'm recalling, I think from Travels through Azeroth and Outland, but if not there somewhere, a character commenting that the night elves tend to somewhat overlook their own special relationship with nature when judging others. Yes, other races cut down trees to get wood -- but that's because they can't get wood the way night elves do. The kaldorei can be interpreted as looking down on others for not following a way of life that those others in fact can't follow -- and if you believe orcs could learn to harvest wood from trees the way night elves do, you're probably still more likely to convince them by trying to teach them than by killing them for it.

Embler said:
I think there's possibilities, though. The Explorer's League could be a kind of British Museum, brushing aside concerns from ancestor-worshipping Horde factions for the sake of archeology. *They* were the titan-appointed stewards of the Earth, after all, they're just fulfilling their divine mandate. Maybe take that further, and say that they have a right to oversee and manage natural resources.
Oh, hm. Now, there's an interesting idea, yeah.
After all, the dwarves do have perhaps the most sophisticated technology of any of the mortal races if the gnomes and goblins, and technology that was found or given by titans or naaru or the like rather than self-developed, are excluded. And Ironforge has good sense the gnomes and goblins, why, many of the other races don't, the dwarves might say. Ironforge dwarves can appreciate a nice bit of nature, but they don't let it control them the way the night elves or tauren do. They're not savages like the orcs and trolls. They're appropriately wary of arcane and fel magic. And, of course, Ironforge indeed did stand through all three wars. And speaking of war, sure, the War of Three Hammers happened, but just look at how much the humans fight each other!

Why, one might just start thinking that, if anyone was to bring order, peace, and prosperity to this wide, rich, and war-torn world, Ironforge was best-placed to do it. Might even see it as a duty, a good dwarf's burden, to spread the light of Civilization...

I'm not the author, of course, and have no idea if something like this will show up, but thanks for the idea!

(And the more I think about it... yeah, Ironforge is the one with the Explorer's League, which says your cultural artifacts belong in our museum. They're the ones with the famous big game hunter and his blood-soaked companions. They're the ones, as NMS mentioned and I'd forgotten, desecrating Tauren burial sites, and sure, that's not happening in Ironforge -- but something about the Ironforge dwarves produced that behavior.)
 
I think there's possibilities, though. The Explorer's League could be a kind of British Museum, brushing aside concerns from ancestor-worshipping Horde factions for the sake of archeology. *They* were the titan-appointed stewards of the Earth, after all, they're just fulfilling their divine mandate. Maybe take that further, and say that they have a right to oversee and manage natural resources.
Definitely something I could work with. The Blood Elves (and the pact in general) have the Reliquary , but they're at least (so far) only opening tombs and pulling out shit in territory they have permission to do it in from the local political authorities in the GP (Dalaran, Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas, Jintha'Alor)- Primal Torntusk has given the permission to take magical items out of tombs in Jinthite territory (as long as the bodies themselves aren't disturbed) partially out of necessity, and partially because she knows it'll make Zul'jin even more furious. (Primal is at the point where if any opportunity to spite Zul'jin arises, she'll take it, even if it it might not be the smartest course of action)

The Explorer's League could definitely start operating beyond territory where they have permission to do things, and you could have a special breed of 'we're special because I mean, look at how much better we're handling things' arrogance developing that the League's habits are a factor of, as @Reese says...

🤔 That's not a bad idea, at least as something to work with. Thanks, both of you!
 
Ironforge - Modern History
Emperor Dagran Thaurissian: You can bluster all you want, Envoy, but the Shadowforge Empire is under no obligation to open it's doors to you just because you demand it.
Gnomegeran Special Envoy1​ Bannydill Finewrench: I wasn't aware that I was blustering. Gnomegeran is the only nation apart from your orcish allies to be willing to even entertain the concept of diplomatic relations with the Shadowforge, I merely advised that you bear that in mind.
Dagran Thaurissian: Please. We both know that when Magni the Magnificently Stupid finishes lathering up his people to support him in his war of aggression, Gnomegeran will march right alongside Ironforge.
Bannydill Finewrench: And we both know that the reason you're not willing to let us look for Moira Bronzebeard is because you have her and want to keep preteding you don't. Unfortunately for you, I'm the only gnome in Gnomegeran who hates playing word games.
Dagran Thaurissian: Good. Then get out. Bring your war - it will be your people, and Bronzebeard dwarves that die by the score. The Dark Iron will make you pay rivers of blood for every inch of land. Even Ironforge does not have that many people to spare. And your people certainly don't.
Bannydill Finewrench: Bold words, Dagran. I recall reading that one your ancestors said much the same thing. I don't recall his ambitions working out for him either.


The War of the Three Hammers left no one satisfied. The Bronzebeards who had nominally won the war found the victory a bit hollow. Yes, they'd taken control of the core areas of the Kingdom, and won the allegiance of the most clans, with more population and wealth than those who had fled with the Wildhammer and Dark Iron, but they'd lost half the territory of the Kingdom in the bargain, and the Dark Iron and Wildhammer both still claimed that the Bronzebeards had no right to the throne.

Of course, if the Bronzebeards found their victory hollow, both the Wildhammer and the Dark iron found their defeat infuriating. Neither clan nor their allies liked the new reality, and both wanted to resume the war as soon as they were ready, to take what was rightfully theirs. Unfortunately, though both sides tried to resume their old alliance, recriminations, mistrust and accusations back and forth quickly destroyed such efforts - less than a year after signing the Treaty of Three Hammers, the Dark Iron and Wildhammer severed relations with one another. Ultimately, it was pride - neither side was willing to let the other one be king, once the war was over. They'd managed to set it aside during the first war... not so now, it seemed.

Still, even as Arkador Thaurissian and his wife Modgud plotted to achieve victory over the Bronzebeard, the original plan was to save the Wildhammer for last. The Wildhammer and the Bronzebeard hated each other too much for the Wildhammer to leap to their aid. Not until it was too late.

And that plan might have worked. But in their search for greater arcane power so they might win against the Bronzebeards, the arcane-wielding clans delved too deep.

Literally.

In Azeroth's past and on countless worlds beside, those who delved too far into the arcane invariably found the Fel. They moved from the orderly magic, the blues and purples of the Arcane, to the far more powerful, destructive and unstable green fire of the Fel.

But not the Dark Iron. Instead, they found, in the deepest parts of Blackrock Mountain, an area where the walls between the Firelands and Azeroth were thinnest - where conjuring elementals of flame was barely any expenditure of energy at all. Keeping them, and commanding them remained a drain of mana, but the calling was always the easiest part.

But as the Dark Iron quickly tried to make up their numbers with masses of fire elementals, they drew the eye of Ragnaros. Showing an almost uncharacteristic subtlty, Ragnaros tricked the Dark Iron into what he called an Alliance, but what he most certainly did not see as one. He helped them on conjuring and in commanding their bound elementals, but the real danger he created lay in the second thing he told them.

The Dark Iron had found scraps and inklings of their Titanic origins, but there was so much they didn't know. Ragnaros, being a being as old as Azeroth itself, fed them an elaborate series of lies about the birth of the Dwarves. Even Arkador Thaurissian assumed that Ragnaros's claims that the Dark Iron clan were the 'purest' form of the original dwarves was nonsense, but it perhaps tricked him into thinking he'd found the flattery and he believed much of the rest. The Dark Iron did not summon Ragnaros to Azeroth yet, but their efforts only thinned the walls more, and let Ragnaros's influence slip into the world more and more.

But the rewards... the soldiers, the fires of the forges burning hotter than ever as their soldiers were armored in armor of the strongest steel, as they blacked their weapons with flame to bind the heat of Blackrock Mountain's depths into their hammers and axes and swords...

They listened to Ragnaros. He had an ulterior motive, he wanted to spread the power of his fire, True Fire throughout Azeroth once more. And the Dark Iron were more than happy to oblige.

And so when Ragnaros told Arkador and Modgud, and their inner circle, that a weapon created by the powerful beings that had shaped the dwarves from rock and dirt and given them life lay within their reach, sealed away in an ancient trollish tomb by Gurubashi many thousands of years ago...

Well, Xal'atath wasn't a particularly dwarvish name for a weapon, but it rightfully belonged to a dwarf, not sealed away by trolls that couldn't use it and had been scared of its power.2​

It was, of course, all lies. Xal'atath quickly got it's hooks into Modgud, and through her, into Arkador. Arkador's son and heir, Caladon was less enticed, but he found himself more and more shut out of discussions the more he voiced that opinion.

What exactly Xal'atath whispered in Modgud's mind is unknown, but it was those whispers, and the assurances Modgud gave that made the Dark Iron decide to rework their plans.

They would not launch all their forces against the Bronzebeard first. For had not the Wildhammer starved the Dark Iron, during the war? Had they not pulled their forces away from critical positions, at critical moments? The Wildhammer were just as much to blame for their loss in the war as the Bronzebeard, weren't they?

It took three years for the Dark Iron to be ready - even the most generous timetables had assumed it would take ten for them to be even slightly ready to launch a new war, before they 'found' Ragnaros, and Xal'atath. But greed, and pride, and ambition and the power they believed they had at their hands...

The Wildhammer and Bronzebeard had of course not been still or silent in those three years, but they too had planned for a longer time to get ready. Even the more populous and wealthy Bronzebeards and their allies had expected to take at least ten years - they had planned from the start to attack both the Wildhammer and Dark Iron together.

The Wildhammer's plans extended to little more than blockading Ironforge and the rest of the underground cities into submission. They saw no need to go back into the tunnels. They would claim the surface, and spend a generation or two starving the Brozebeard into submission.

But they too knew that such a plan required preparation. And the Dark Iron would need a different solution, as their command of the arcane would make blockade less effective.

Instead, of course, without formal declaration of the resumption of hostilities, Arkador and Modgud Thaurissian attacked the Bronzebeard and Wildhammer simultaneously - quite literally, they used magic to ensure that they communicated right up until the last moment. Soldiers, mages and elementals swarmed over the outer defenses of both their rivals - the Wildhammer were quickly overrun, and soon Grim Batol was already under siege. The Wildhammer ace in the hole, their griffons, proved to be useless against flying fire elementals, and massed mages ready to burn or blast anything with feathers from the skies.

The Bronzebeard proved to be a harder nut to crack. Though unprepared for the Dark Iron attack, and without shamanistic magic to at least provide some counter to the fire elementals swarming against their lines, the Bronzebeard had numbers, they had money, and they had the key defensive positions. Time and time again, the Dark Iron forces threw themselves at the Bronzebeard defenders. Time and again, they would succeed, pushing the enemy back - but only at great cost. They could always summon more fire elementals, but it took time, moving them from the depths of Blackrock to the front, and of course, they could hardly replace soldiers so fast.

Things seemed poised to be a failure - the Dark Iron strategy had assumed quick victories with overwhelming force. But then, calling on the magic of Xal'atath, Modgud was able to make the very shadows themselves attack the defenders of Grim Batol from within - this allowed her to break open the gates and lead her forces into the battle. The ensuing fight was bloodier than even the battles of the First Three Hammers War, but what little first hand records we have make it clear the balance of the atrocities were committed by the Dark Iron forces - the Wildhammer did massacre some captured prisoners, or the like, but either out of lack of opportunity, or lack of prediction, they committed far fewer sins.

The Wildhammer fought well, and they could hold in most places. But anywhere Modgud and her cursed blade arrived, the battle quickly turned, and though she could not be everywhere, she could be at just the right place...

But for some reason, at the last minute, as Khardros Wildhammer, in a desperate gamble, led his vanguard straight for Modgud, Xal'atath vanished, or failed Modgud, or even betrayed her. The details are disputed. What is known is that the shadows she had conjured fell upon the Dark Iron forces, and she fell to Khardros's strike. With her last breath, she conjured her considerable arcane might and laid a curse on Grim Batol - it took time for it to take effect, and be realized, but after the war, the Wildhamer found that Grim Batol was poison to any dwarf that tried to sleep within it's walls. And to this day, no dwarf has called Grim Batol home.

By the time word of his wife's death reached him, Arkador had managed to push all the way to the city of Ironforge itself. But by now, his forces were sapped. He could push no further. Where was Modgud? The Wildhammer were supposed to be beaten first, she should be here with her forces...

Word of her death broke Arkador, and word that the Wildhammer were coming with vengeance in their eyes, that all the forces sent to Grim Batol were dead...

He sounded the retreat. The Dark Iron fled, leaving their fire elementals behind to cover their retreat.

Khardros and Madoran met on the battlefield, destroying the last of this rearguard. In a famous moment immortalized in a dozen statues, poems, songs and even a famous painting (done by a High Elf artist) that hangs in the Ironforge Senate Chambers, the two leaders shook hands, surrounded by the disappointing husks of fire elementals.

There was bad blood, between the Bronzebeard, and the Wildhammer. But after the brutal surprise assault launched by the Dark Iron, there was a greater foe.

Arkador tried to make peace - he swore that if the Bronzebeard and Wildhammer tried to attack him in Blackrock Mountain, or his new capital of Thaurissian, they would pay a dear price for every inch. That his forces' magic would bleed them dry. He even offered to formally surrender any claim to the throne of Ironforge, and even the land that would become the Searing Forge, if he was left to independence and peace.

Of course, this was not taken. And despite his boasts, against the combined arms of the Wildhammer and the Bronzebeard, and all their allied clans, the Dark Iron were pushed back constantly.

And so, in a desperate gamble, Arkador gathered his greatest mages in Thaurissian, the heart of his power, the center of his magic. With a conduit to the Blackrock Depths at hand, Arkdador and his mages did the one thing they'd refrained from doing so far:

They conjured Ragnaros to this world to defeat their enemies.

To his credit, the Lord of Flame did indeed destroy the attacking Bronzebeard and Wildhammer forces. But first, he killed Arkador, and destroyed Thaurissian. Claiming Blackrock Mountain as his own, he completed the oath extracted from him when he was summoned (Arkador had not extracted an oath to not kill him or his people), by the expedient of making Blackrock Mountain erupt.

Madoran and Khandros escaped with their lives, as did a small number of the attacking Bronzebeard and Wildhammer forces, but most died, buried under ash or burned by lava. The Burning Steppes and Searing Gorge were born.

A new peace was born. The Bronzebeard could not attack the Dark Iron - not over terrain so hostile, not for land so useless... not after all they'd lost. And the Wildhammer soon found that Grim Batol was lost to them. But showing a remarkable restraint, with both Arkador and Modgud dead, it was perhaps the case that revenge had been had. Khardros hated the Dark Iron, but he saw no need for vengeance. Not when it would cost his people even more.

Madoran did, but he could do nothing about it, and he failed to pass that burning, personal hatred onto his successor. There was little love lost between the Bronzebeard and Dark Iron forever more, and to today, but revenge over old slights is a Dark Iron obsession more than an Ironforge one, at this point.

The years between the end of the Second War of Three Hammers - which wasn't formally ended until fifteen years later, when Madoran's barely adult grandson succeeded him - and the First War were... well, hardly uneventful, but not noteworthy. By now, the Wildhammer had ceded the Wetlands back to Ironforge, but maintained an independence, as many of them moved north, to Aerie Peak.

The Kingdom of Ironforge prospered, renewing old relationships, though the title of 'greatest power in the Eastern Kingdoms' slipped from their grasp and into Lordaeron's. A succession of capable Bronzebeard kings ruled until Magni came to power a few years before the Dark Portal opened.

When word of the strange invasion reached Ironforge, Magni was the ruler who came the closest to offering Stormwind aid. And unlike Terenas Menethil, it was not an advisor with honeyed words that stilled him, but the Senate of Ironforge.

With Stormwind not outright asking for help, with other matters closer to home seeming more relevant, the Senate was unwilling to simply throw men and money at the problem. Stormwind seemed to think they had it handled, and so if they needed help, they could ask. Magni didn't entirely agree with that logic, but in the end, he decided to save his political capital for other things.

Word of the Sack of Stormwind would, of course, leave him to regret that. He spat in the face - literally - of the orcish ambassadors that offered peace for submission, and fought on the front lines to prevent the orcs from breaking into the Kingdom's core areas - the Wetlands and Loch Modan may have fallen, but neither Ironforge itself, nor Dun Morogh was ever truly in danger, the orcs simply not prepared for what it took to break through dwarven defenses When the Second War turned, Magni joined the Alliance enthusiastically, and Ironforge forces fought all the way to the end, and the Kingdom contributed men to the expedition beyond the Dark Portal.

In the wake of the Second War, Magni, learning his lessons from the First, pushed through new laws through the Senate that allowed him far more freedom with the Kingdom's military and foreign policy - never again would be let 'the Senate would make it too much trouble' stop him from acting when he felt it necessary. He did have to make a number of concessions in domestic authority, but it was acceptable.

His daughter, Moira, did not agree, and their shouting match was the talk of the city for weeks afterwards - Moira actually moved out of the Royal Palace at that point, to a manor of the Bronzebeard royal line on the outskirts of the Capital, and quickly began gathering a faction around her - those who saw the Senate as a drag on Ironforge, or had any other issues with the cultural orthodoxy in power in Ironforge (including dwarves who had an interest in the arcane, which was slowly growing again among a counter-culture in Ironforge society).3​

Muradin and Bann, brothers to Magni for their part, took advantage of the new peace, and the opened lines of trade and knowledge offered by the Alliance to form the Explorer's League. A longtime ambition of both brothers had been to explore the furthest reaches of the world. Find the lost magics of ancient times, knowledge of the world before the modern races emerged. An endeavor like this would be most expensive, and so they set their sights smaller, to start. Something simple, but flashy, to attract attention, perhaps something they could sell.

This legendary runeblade, detailed in a book recently uncovered in the darkest parts of the Royal Library of Lordaeron seemed like a good place to start. Countless human noblemen would pay through the nose for an enchanted sword with the pedigree of this Frostmourne, right? It wasn't where they really wanted to go, but it seemed a good start. With that money, they could convince the Senate and investors from all over the Eastern Kingdoms to fund them more.

While Bann remained behind to continue to gather more funds, potential targets and research, Muradin took as many men and supplies as he could afford north, to the frigid continent at the end of the world.

When word of undead in Lordaeron reached Magni, he used his new power to dispatch many soldiers and war machines north, to every cause he could. To the aid of first Arthas and his effort, then to Terenas in trying to restore order, then to Jaina to defend and evacuate her refugees, and then finally to Garithos. News of Muradin's death was a tragedy, and he would later use that grief to forge Ashbringer, during this time.

But the Senate, despite having given him the power to do this, kept jostling his elbow. Perhaps he was being a bit too quick, to throw men and materiel at everything? Garithos was a racist and seemed to be fighting a losing battle, always going on the offensive and - did he just order the execution of Prince Kael'thas? And all of his soldiers?

Even that was too much for Magni - he had no specific love for the newborn Blood Elves, though he certainly felt for their tragic loss, but Garithos's choice to execute Kael and his men over what appeared to be nothing worth it was unconscionable and more importantly - stupid. Unfortunately, by the time he could send orders to his men fighting alongside Garithos to withdraw unless Garithos was removed from leadership, Detheroc had already enslaved the entire force to his will... eventually, once they were freed, and the capital retaken, the dwarves largely returned home. Garithos was dead, and while Sylvanas didn't say their services were no longer welcome, it wasn't as if they were thrilled to fight alongside this undead elf, even if increasing numbers of surviving Lordaeronic humans were (though as noted before some of Garithos's men did flee east, eventually forming a key part of the Scarlet Crusade's forces).

Things stabilized, for now. Moira continued to gather the discontented around her, but she posed no real threat to Magni, and he remained certain that if he gave her time, she'd grow past this youthful rebellion.

The Alliance was reforged, and Ironforge renewed it's oaths and memberships - and with the Dark Horde and Shadowforge allies, it seemed all too likely that someday, war would come anew between the two cousin branches of dwarvenkind. Magni did not great the idea with much love - he even entertained hopes he could convince the Dark Iron to break from the Dark Horde. He did not love the Dark Iron, but they were dwarves. The Dark Horde deserved no such consideration - still proudly waving the bloody banner of the same Horde that had slaughtered Stormwind (even if they had no great love for the architect of that slaughter, Ogrim) - they didn't even deserve the cautious 'I'm fine with them as long as they stay far, far away' that Magni had for the Horde in Kalimdor.

But still. There was no urgency. There were skirmishes between Stormwind and the Dark Horde, but nothing truly serious, yet.

And then, when travelling near the Searing Gorge with her inner circle, likely looking for weaknesses she could use to try to score political points against Magni and the senate, Moira Bronzebeard was attacked. Their guards were slain, and her and her entourage taken captive. Investigation soon made it clear where she was, despite Dagran's repeated protestations of innocence:

She was in Shadowforge City, the heart of the Shadowforge Empire, and he would get her back.

The timetable for war had just moved up.

Perhaps Madoran had been right, to burn to one day bring justice to the Shadowforge.

Perhaps Magni could be the one to do just that.



1: Because of the current state of alliance between the Shadowforge Empire and the Dark Horde, no nation other than the Dark Horde has official relations (or embassies) with the Shadowforge. Unofficially all three goblin cartels have relations, and course they're happy to buy and sell from the Shadowforge and Dark Horde. Additionally, while Gnomegeran has never had *great* relations with the Dark Iron since the end of the Second War of the Three Hammers, relations always existed even during the Shadowforge's most isolationist periods. While Gnomegeran does not currently have any sort of embassy with the Shadowforge Empire or vice-versa, they do maintain certain backchannel communications, which is what this 'Special Envoy' is a part of.

2: Xal'atath being involved in this is seventeen different kinds of nonsense, but it is canon. I debated just removing it, but I can at least use this nonsense to explain another nonsense (namely, the Dark Iron dividing their forces to attack Ironforge and Grim Batol at the same time).

3: I'm borrowing a page from ganonso 's book here, and squaring the circle of the shitty writing wrt to Moira and her 'abduction' by having her be an anti-Senate radical reformer, who basically wants to go the Absolute Monarchy route. There is a difference here in that in this 'verse, rather than being abducted five years ago and falling for Dagran in that time, she ended up falling for Dagran (and vice-versa) over the course of many years during a covert correspondence that began as a means to use Dagran against her father in some way. The 'abduction' was arranged for her to be taken along with her inner circle (all close allies that see things her way) so she and Dagran could finally marry. Dagran is counting on Ironforge and Stormwind to attack to rid him of the most Ragnaros-loyal soldiers and officers (who he is staffing the front lines with) and the Dark Horde, while he wraps up his plan to deal with Ragnaros once everyone is distracted by the war. He actually does have a good plan, and has already made contact with the Hydraxian Waterlords through Goblin Intermediaries. He just needs to get rid of more of the Ragnaros loyalists in a deniable way.
 
Ironforge - Modern Kingdom
Grand Mason Vardok Marblesten: I'm not saying the Kingdom should stop preparing for war, Light knows those Dark Iron bastards deserve a good thrashing, but it's mighty stupid of the Senate to keep moving back when I can present my petition. The Royal Stonecutter's Union can't just be ignored!
Senator Mehr Stonehallow: Aye, you're right there, but Magni will hear of nothing else but preparations for war - he holds his seal hostage on all sorts of measures so the Senate mines to his drum.1​
Grand Mason Marblesten: That is - it's mad! Mad and stupid! And not how the laws are supposed to work!
Senator Stonehallow: The Senate is usually supposed to hold their votes hostage until the King sees to their needs, true.


The Kingdom of Ironforge is, like many Kingdoms in the modern era, defined by it's capital city.

Sort of.

It would be wrong to ignore the import of cities like Menethil Harbor or Thelsamar or Kharanos. Or all the hinterland in the Kingdom, where crops are grown, animals are herded and resources mined.

And yet, as turns Ironforge, so turns the Kingdom.

Ironforge is, in terms of total area, the largest city in the world, a sprawling mass of tunnels and chambers and caverns underneath Dun Morogh, all the way up to connecting to the surface, and extending deep below the ground. While the largest caverns are the most notable, housing the major buildings of the city's government and business, and even the homes of most people in the city, the various tunnels and off-shooting caverns that extend from the city are occupied. The lowest tunnels are home to the slums of the city, the poor, the outcasts, the criminals. It is from these tunnels, and secret pathways connecting all levels of the city that the monolithic criminal organization known as the Hidden Circle operates.

Dwarves, despite their reputation for order, are as prone to criminals as anyone else, and once, crime was divided between many gangs and cartels and syndicsates, but over the recent decades, they became more and more consolidated as assassinations and gang wars in the lowest levels of Ironforge have brought them all under the control of the Hidden Circle. It is said that even the lowest of pickpockets must pay the tax to the mysterious leaders of the Circle, and that if a beggar steals a single hardtack biscuit from a store that's paid it's protection to the Circle, the Circle will take the beggar's hand before the Ironforge Guard knows there was a theft.

The power and reach of the Hidden Circle is of course, exaggerated, but it does speak to the problems in Ironforge. The city's focuses remain outward, on the coming war with the Shadforge, or on mining more and more to fuel the Kingdom's hunger. It focuses on the Explorer's League, and their search for the ancient mysteries of Azeroth's past, on claiming the artifacts and relics for Ironforge.

But Ironforge itself, at least those parts not dedicated to fueling the engines of wealth and war? Neglected, underserved, abandoned. Wealth concentrates more and more in the hands of noble families at the top of clans, or in the hands of large cooperatives like the Miner's League and the Stonecutter's Union - groups that serve to represent the common dwarf amidst the titanic power of the clan nobility, but does so through enforcing uniformity among it's members to ensure proper collective bargaining.

It would be wrong to compare Ironforge to the basket case that is Stromgarde, or the veneer of prosperity covering dysfunction that defines Stormwind. Because outside of the city of Ironforge, the Kingdom prospers far more, for now, with far less problems... mostly.

The Kingdom of Ironforge has always been a net food importer. While animals can be herded on the slopes of the mountains, including several species of goat and sheep, and hardy relatives of the common cow, providing meat and milk, the only areas Ironforge had that could grow much food was the area around Loch Modan. But that could never be enough. Food importation for Ironforge long came from Stormwind or from Lordaeron, but the longest time, the dwarven aversion to sailing prevented them from making much use of water transport - instead, goods would come overland, from Thandol Span, or across the lands that would become the Searing Gorge and Burning Steppes.

This of course made food expensive, but Ironforge could afford it. Apart from their besiegement during the Second War, Ironforge has almost always been a net exporter, accumulating vast gold and silver reserves from other lands, used to purchase metalwork, jewelry, enchanted items (dwarven enchantments rival those of Dalaran at it's height, at least on metal and stone), worked stone, sculptures... and of course, especially of late, the services of dwarven labor. The Stonecutters Union in particular has seen much wealth come it's way, as fellow members of the Alliance have made use of their services to build defensive fortifications. Recently they completed an expensive set of expansions and improvements to the walls of Strom, with Galen Trollbane wanting to have the ultimate impregnable city.

Usually, in these cases, a contract is worked out in advance, half payment provided up front, and then the dwarves - skilled experts in their craft - go to whatever nation they are hired for, with their maintenance (food, lodging and a suitable amount of ale being the most common) provided by their hosts, in most cases. The dwarves may work for whoever hired them, but whatever clan or organization they contract to is the one that pays them, most often (only rarely does an individual dwarf contract individually)

Even the Ghostlands Pact has hired dwarven experts for some tasks, though always with some caution, and never for military needs. But several projects by Alterac to rebuild damaged roads or other infrastructure has benefited from hiring a few dwarven advisors or specialist workers, for instance.

The dwarves, of course, are not stupid. Many times in their history, food importation has slackened, or slowed, and the dwarves are masters of food preservation. Canning, jarring, pickling, salting and more, all means by which the dwarves seek to store food away for lean periods. This served them well during the Second War, among other times.

Of course, these days, thanks to Menethil Harbor, food tends to arrive there, and then come to Ironforge, faster and cheaper than the entirely overland options.

However, that is no longer so simple. Once, it was straight forward, to travel from the Harbor, to Dun Algaz, to Ironforge and thence the rest of the kingdom. But during the most successful Dark Horde military action to-date, when elements of the Dragonmaw Clan that embraced their demon overlords once again invaded Loch Modan and pushed forward to Thandol Span, Dun Algaz fell to the forces of the Dark Horde. They fell short of Thandol Span, but they continue to squat in and around Dun Algaz, unable to break free, and running short on supplies. They will be starved out within a year, even with Dun Algaz's captured extensive food reserves, if the insects and other wildlife of the Wetlands (which even the Dwarves must combat regularly) don't get them first.

Unfortunately for Ironforge, the second most efficient path for transit from Menethil Harbor is also no longer an option. When the Dark Horde blew through the defenses around Loch Modan, they created an open space for the Loch Modan coalition, an odd collection of Gnolls, Murlocs, Troggs and Kobolds that came out of the woodwork and the underground, uniting in common interests. The Mosshide Gnolls do most of the interfacing with outsiders, and their stated ambition is to secure the entire Loch Modan for themselves, as a homeland for their people, safe from the predations of the great powers of the world.

Suffice to say, Ironforge is having none of it, but as long as the Stonewrought Dam and Thelsamar remain secure - which they are - Magni considers the Shadowforge and Dark Horde a greater threat and dealing with the Loch Modan Coalition risks exposing the flank. So far, the problem has been outsourced to mercenaries and adventurers, with bounties placed on the heads of known leading chieftains and others in the Coalition, and other payments for clearing out locations of the 'savage' races therein.

Magni can take this detached approach because there exists a third way to move goods to and from Menethil Harbor. It is more expensive and slower, requiring travel over rough terrain and bending, twisting tunnels, but it has not become so cumbersome that Ironforge is in any danger of starving or being unable to export their product. Once, all three routes were used, but with two unavailable, the last now serves all needs, creating slow, backed up traffic, but a boon for those small towns and villages that service the travelers along this single road

But the price of food is higher than it has been since the end of the Second War.

The Senate has tried to resolve this issue by improving the road and tunnels in question, but they can't risk shutting the trade down during the process, and Magni, in an effort to bring the Senate to heel on the preparations for war, has held hostage a number of bills designed to address these problems.


The route marked in Red was the primary artery for trade from Menethil Harbor to Ironforge, while the route marked in Orange is the second most used one, but now passes through territory controlled by the Loch Modan Coalition. The one marked in Pink remains open, but is now clogged with many times more traffic than it's used to and the prices of bringing goods through that route is not cheap.

But it would be wrong to overstate Ironforge's woes. Compared to Stormwind and Stromgarde, and of course, Gnomegeran, Ironforge is thriving. It gears up for war, but it can do so without risk of bankruptcy. And there are still many young dwarves, and old warhorses eager for a fight, so manning the expanding military is not hard. But there are many demands on Ironforge's resources - the Shadowforge/Dark Horde axis is the biggest, but the Loch Modan Coalition and eventually the need to help the gnomes take back their city will have to take priority (though until the gnomes can deal with the radiation issues, a mass movement of soldiers into the city is ill-advised).

In Ironforge itself, people buy and sell all manner of goods, priests of the light debate with historians who find meaning in the scraps of lore about the ancient origins of their kind, and for many of the noble clans and major organizations, business remains as usual. Weapons are forged, machines of war are made according to gnomish designs, and bankers count their gold. Loans flow out of the city like water, extending across the Alliance, while the interest payments flow back in, just as freely, though in many cases, the money stays in Ironforge the whole time, with loans made to buy things from Ironforge itself.

Sometimes, it's as simple as literally grabbing a few gold bars and just carrying them from one vault to another.

Ironforge is a bustling city, and though the Hidden Circle is powerful, they prefer to keep business running. Murder and theft are much reduced, with illicit gambling and protection rackets forming the bulk of criminal enterprises. Of course, a dwarf that tries to flip on their criminal patrons, or makes too many waves will still end up dead, their body chopped up and left to decompose in the mushroom fields, where mushrooms as tall as small trees are grown, and harvested to form part of the diet of the Kingdom.

Compared to many of its peers, Ironforge is thriving.

Unfortunately, that very prosperity may carry the poison pill that destroys Ironforge. For Ironforge's very prosperity marks it out. It survived the depridations of the First, Second and Third Wars. Only small portions of their population have actually fought in the fights during and after the Third War, and only a slightly larger portion have actually been to the lands far beyond Ironforge.

For many who never leave home, or rarely do, the success and continued prosperity of Ironforge isn't because of the luck of geography, the accidents of history or even the generally capable leadership of the Bronzebeard Kings and the Senate (even Magni, for all his recent shenanigans, is a conscientious ruler by Eastern Kingdom standards).

No.

Ironforge has prospered due to the intrinsic qualities of the dwarven people. Hard work. Industriousness. Thrift. Collaborative organization. Long-range planning (but with focus on the now, too).

And certainly, the dwarves are industrious, thrifty hard workers. But it is impossible to claim they have a monopoly on those, or that greed and sloth and short-sighted idiocy have no home among the dwarves.

And yet these thinkers and speakers, believers and dreamers think that there is something elevated of the dwarves - the good dwarves, anyway, the ones that stayed loyal to Ironforge (Dark Iron and Wildhammer need not apply after all) - something that makes them special. Better. It is still nebulously articulated, for now, but the root of it is that Ironforge prospers because the Dwarves are just... smarter. More moral. Blessed. Chosen. By the Light, or the Titans or the impersonal forces of the universe. The Dwarves are superior... and perhaps that superiority should be reflected in the order of things more generally, no?

Humans are foolish. elves, hopeless addicts. Gnomes can't fight for their own homes properly. Trolls are decadent, squabbling and weak. Orcs are savages, and everything else, little more than beasts.

Dwarves?

Dwarves are perfect.

This mindset may not be the dominant one, or even close but the undercurrent has spread, and is primed to play right into every bias and preconception many dwarves have. Magni and most of the Senate know better, and yet.

And yet.

Magni remains focused outward, and the Senate keeps having their attention dragged with him, even as they'd like to deal with the domestic issues that are their remit. They ceded all this authority to Magni in favor of a freer hand domestically, and yet, Magni doesn't seem to have really accepted that memo.

Ironforge prospers, but if the price of food continues to mount to unsustainable levels, if enough loans default, if the coming war turns south, if the Loch Modan Coalition takes Thelsamar....

To say Ironforge balances on the edge of a knife would be wrong. The fact is, those ifs are exceptionally unlikely. Already, some merchants in Ironforge have reached out to Mulgore, seeking to add Tauren corn to their food imports (primarily as feed for their goats sheep and cows, but still), or even to Durotar for their pigs. Sure, the orcs are savages and the Tauren not much better, probably, and even those with less racist outlooks aren't fond of the Grand Confederation, but food is food, and money is money.

The Loch Modan Coalition has almost no chance of taking Thelsamar, and the coming war... it may not be easy, but the odds are, in the long term, stacked in Ironforge's favor.

And as for defaulting loans? Well, yes, if enough loans default, it could be an issue, but Kul Tiran have capital as well, if Ironforge ones need a quick cash infusion, and at most, it will likely just be economic dislocation - as after all, so much of the loaned money remains in Ironforge anyway. Some may lose their fortunes, but not enough to cripple trade entirely.

Ironforge is by no means flawless, and like the rest of Azeroth, the compound stresses of everything the world has gone through in recent decades strains at it - but with Dun Algaz locked down, and the Shadowforge in no good position to hold back a concerted Alliance assault...

Ironforge may have the most secure future in the Alliance, as things stand now.

Then again.

Three Wars have shown how quickly fortunes can turn, in the modern age.

So perhaps you shouldn't place your bets with Hidden Circle bookmakers any time soon.

Then again, still good odds.



1: the Dwarven equivalent of 'Dances to his Tune' - dwarven miners use drums to keep working in time, and metaphors about mining and drums are common in general in Dwarven (Ironforge dialect) as well as Dwarven (Shadowforge dialect). The Wildhammer have most lose these idioms, of course.
 
Didn't entirely feel this post - the Ironforge stuff feels the weakest I've had so far in this project - but I did feel it more than the two history posts, so there's that. I have some good ideas for the Factions post, so hopefully that one will be more fun to write. Gnomegeran is next after Ironforge, and I'm honestly not sure where I land with that. I feel more enthused about it in principle, and it has some fun stuff to work with, but I don't tend to be fond of gnomes any more than dwarves, in fantasy, so we'll see.
 
Ironforge - Factions
Since the end of the Second War of the Three Hammers, the politics of Ironforge have been centered around the Senate. With the King playing a role as broker, as much as anything else. On some issues, the contest may have been Senate versus King, but just as often, with the Dark Iron and Wildhammer aligned clans gone, the Senate would divide into groups based on interests, alignments, needs and values.

These disputes would often stall Senate business entirely, forcing the King to wade into the fray, cut deals, play broker, serve as middleman to make sure that what needed to be done, got done, and banged heads together to make it happen.

It was this sort of dispute that distracted Magni from sending aid to Stormwind during the First War, fights over mining rights and trade subsidies, tariffs and regulations. Someone wins, someone loses. Compromises need to be made, and promises need to be kept.

Today, however, that has fallen by the wayside. It is not to say that the Senate doesn't stll have divides, between various financial, business and political positions. But these days, it is King vs Senate that dominates the field.

Not that some Senator's aren't in the King's Camp, but most are outside it. The followers of the King, called a term that translates somewhat imprecisely as 'Eager Tunnelers' - implying people who tunnel too far, too fast, without providing support structures for the tunnel and then the tunnels collapse behind them - have clustered around Magni Bronzebeard. Magni wants the Kingdom to declare war on the Dark Iron as soon as possible, he wants the kingdom devoting all it's energies to that war, and then when his daughter is rescued, he wants to make sure the Dark Iron understand the cost of their actions.

But for all his thirst for war, Magni is not interested in blood for the sake of it. For those who want to destroy the Dark Iron once and for all, who want to see them defeated and forced back into the fold at the blade of an ax, they gather around General Vanndar Stormpike1​. Vanndar fought by Magni's side during the Second War, defending Ironforge from the Horde every day, and he lost many friends on that front line. The Horde would never have had such an easy time besieging Ironforge had the Dark Iron not acquiesced to their passage north, and now the Dark Iron did it again. Fool Vandar once, shame on you. Fool Vanndar twice?

You'll be too dead to do it a third time. Vanndar wants nothing less than the complete abolition of the Shadowforge state, the annexation of all Shadowforge land into Ironforge (less maybe some traded to Stormwind to keep them happy given their anticipated contribution) and finds himself much in agreement with people like Daelin and Varian about the 'Orc Problem', beyond just the Dark Horde.

On the opposite end of the scale from Vanndar is High Advisor Belgrum Deepaxe. The High Advisor has long served as the interface between King and Senate, and that remains true in this case. While loyal to Magni, and supportive of his military programs, he has consistently pushed for the eventual peace terms with the Shadowforge (not the Dark Horde, of course) to be as mild and non punitive as possible. With their losses in the coming war likely to be enough, Belgrum belives a more moderate peace will be more stable - he would like to see the Shadowforge brought into open trade with the rest of the world, forging better peace by turning the Shadowforge into productive members of Azerothian society. At the very least, it will do better than creating an excuse for another three hundred years of resentment.

But though there are divides within the Eager Tunnelers, the faction as a whole still puts declaring that war, defeating the Shadowforge, defeating the Dark Horde, and recovering Moira as the highest priority.

The primary opposition - if it can even be called that - to the Tunnelers and their 'mad rush to war' are the Senate Traditionalists, a coalition of Senators and their allies that would be at each others throats on matters of trade or law at any other time, but due to the need to hold the reins as the King barrels towards war without taking proper precautions, they have been forced together. The faction is led by two men - neither of them oppose the basic idea of war against the Shadowforge or the recovery of Moira, but they were simply of a mind that Magni is pushing for too far, too fast. As long as the Dark Horde continues to squat in Dun Algaz, and as long as the Loch Modan Coalition continues to hold most of the Loch in one form or another, it's perhaps not worth going quite so full hog. At least not until Stormwind is ready, not until more groundwork has been laid.

Senator Barin Redstone's position is that Ironforge needs to marshall it's forces more, raise more troops, and build more engines of war. While Magni presses for invasion of the Searing Gorge within three months, Redstone simply asks for nine, or perhaps six. He'd prefer a year, but he's willing to take less, if Magni will just give him more time. Magni's persistent habit of holding Senate business hostage to his war preparations, however, has increasingly alienated more and more of the Traditionalists, and Senator Mehr Stonehallow leads those of the faction that have found themselves inclined to stall more, as much out of polarizing opposition to Magni as a genuine desire for caution. Just as Magni holds Senate business hostage to get support for his war effort, Stonehallow has tried to hold war preparations hostage so Magni will do his actual job as King and sign the damn laws the Senate passes. This push-pull polarization has left Redstone and Stonehallow at such loggerheads they may have a formal break soon.

Within the armed forces of the Kingdom, several prominent figures are aligned with the Traditionalists, agreeing with the call for more time - most notably Thargas Anvilmar, who, as the commander at Thandol Span (and the one who held the Dark Horde Dragonmaw back from that critical bridge) who sees his men whittled away slowly, rather than being used for defense of Thandol Span, or the recovery of Dun Algaz, as well as August Foehammer, named an honorary Lordaeron Duke for saving the life of King Terenas from a Horde Assassin during the Second War (he'd been an Ironforge Ambassador in Lordaeron before even the First War started). Both men support the cause of war, and lean more towards Redstone, but they, like Redstone, simply want

More.

Time.

As a third faction within the government, and one with almost no Senate support, there are the self-styled Pragmatics. Once led by Moira Bronzebeard, she gathered together dissidents, philosophers and businessmen after her famous break with her father. Several of her closest allies were abducted alongside her, and the Pragmatics agree with Magni about the need for war sooner rather than later, but that is the only place the faction agrees with the King, and they have virtually no overlap with the Senate.

Put simply, the only thing that unites these so-called pragmatics is hatred of the Senate, and distaste for Magni's general moderation. More broadly, one could say that the Pragmatics include anyone who opposes the cultural orthodoxy of Ironforge. Included among their ranks are the mage Esmund Brightshield (who pushes for more dwarven mages and a brioader acceptance of dwarven mages as a concept socially), and the heterodox Light philosopher-priest Breanna Flintcrag (who has deployed the principles of the Light in argument of autocracy, most recently inspired by Galen Trollbane's centralization of real power in Stromgarde). Chief Engineer Hinderweir, in charge of Stonewrought Dam, has also drifted into Moira's orbit, as her program proposes vast infrastructure projects that she claims the Senate holds back through their short-sighted financial policies.

With Moira and her inner circle absent, the faction has been somewhat rudderless, but they continue to try to convince more dwarves that the solution to Ironforge's problems is to abolish the Senate, and allow the King do do his job unimpeded by anything other than the needs of Ironforge. Of course, their ideal solution, once Moira is found, is for Magni to be then forced to step down, as Moira clearly has the will to see this project through to the end.

Even to rescue his own daughter, the spineless Magni is unwilling to brush aside the Senate, the same Senate that led the people of Stormwind twist in the wind against the orcs, the same Senate that holds the Kingdom back, and has done so time again, in Ironforge's history. The Senate's weaknesses are, after all, the very reason that the Kingship exists at all.

So why should it continue to hold Ironforge back?

Outside of the halls of power proper, there are other influential groups in the Kingdom. Most notably, of course, are the Royal Stonecutter's Union led by Grand Mason Vardok Marblesten, and the Miner's League, led by Wilder Thistlenettle. Both dwarves are elected by their peers to lead their groups, and they are interest groups in the purest sense of the word. Individual members may have all sorts of political opinions, but the groups as a whole exist to promote the interests of their professions - stonecutting/masonry, and mining. They are unions of workers, representing the laborers in both financial and regulatory senses. They stand up to the wealthiest nobles of the clans, they work to ensure safety regulations that are both sensible and nonrestrictive, and represent the skilled craftsmen free of outside control. They push for more mining, ever more mining, and various subsidies for other members of the Alliance to avail themselves of the masonry skills of the Dwarves.

Of course, often opposing that subsidy approach is the Board of Bankers, a collection of the various banks and banking families of Ironforge. Led by Chairwoman Soleil Stonemantle, the Board is all for the Stonecutters continuing to do work for the rest of the Alliance, but they very much want to see it paid for by loans taken out from their banks, rather than subsidies from the government. The Bankers are not all greedy and rapacious dwarves, though there are some, but they are firm believers in greasing the wheels of the economy through the expansion of money through loans. They oppose most forms of regulation on labor, capital and business, including 'safety' regulations (which they claim are usually poorly implemented, and better left to the managers and laborers on-site) as well as high taxes. An expanding tunnel only finds more gold, after all, and the Bankers believe that growing the economy will increase tax receipts and thus raising taxes will be unnecessary.

They are, to be fair, also far from usurious in their lending rates. Indeed, Ironforge Banks have the most generous interest rates in the world, both for savings and for loans (with the sole exception of the Bank of Theramore's low interest rates for Theramore citizens). They believe in long-term business, and long-term value, collecting interest payments for years rather than asking for much work to be done on paying down the principal.

Of late, the Board has given out more and more loans to the rest of the Alliance - either the governments, or private entities therein, and some outside the Board worry that the Kingdom's banks are overextended. But given the fact that so much of the loaned money just ends up in the hands of the Stonecutter's Union, or some noble family or private company's accounts, the concerns are perhaps overblown. The Board certain insists they are, and while they are biased, they do have some of the best economic thinkers in the known world at their disposal, outside of a few professors at New Gearshaft University.

No discussion of factions in Ironforge would be complete without also discussing the Hidden Circle. Their leadership is unknown, though is believed to have fallen under the control of one dwarf as a master of all crime in Ironforge, or nearly so. The Hidden Circle's motives are simple, favoring stability and vice over chaos and overt crime. Gambling, protection rackets and a bit of light smuggling make up the bulk of their lucrative business, and they bribe officials up and down the government, across the Kingdom. Rumors persist at least one Senator is in their pocket, but they don't have much of a specific political agenda besides keeping them in power. They are, however, nearly at open war with the Pragmatics. The Pragmatics use the power and reach of the Hidden Circle as a textbook example of the weaknesses of Ironforge now. Crime runs rampant, and the Ironforge Guard refuse to do their jobs and purge these criminals from the city. The Pragmatics have organized their own investigations and attacks on the Circle and by all evidence, have never lynched the wrong target, but their lynch mobs are of course, just as made as the Hidden Circle, or worse, in the eyes of many.

In turn, of course, the Hidden Circle attacks the Pragmatics - businesses owned by members of allies of the group universally don't pay protection, and are thus free game and even especially targeted by the Hidden Circle, and there's the odd disappearance of mysterious death associated with the Pragmatics that is almost certainly the fault of the Hidden Circle.

More often, for both sides, it is ambushes in alleys leaving people beaten to a pulp, but alive, sabotage, leaked secrets, stolen resources...

Compared to the chaos of Stormwind, or even the terrorism launched against the leaders of Jintha'alor by Amani loyalists this little turf war is... nothing. Gang violence endemic to any city anywhere, really.

The conflict between the Tunnelers and the Traditionalists, the Pragmatics and the Hidden Circle (and the Traditionalists, and Magni specifically), and the Bankers against the Miner's League and the Stonecutter's Union are real, and they threaten to paralyze the Kingdom.

And yet... even with all that, compared to Stormwind, Ironforge does well.

So well, of course, that some have continued to argue that the Kingdom, that the Bronzebeard Dwarves - the true dwarves - are blessed, chosen by the Titans, or fate, or... something, to be the natural rulers.

Certainly, Azeroth belongs to them.

Many of these people find their homes in the Explorer's League. While the League, as founded by Brann Bronzebeard and his brother Muradin, is a reasonably noble pursuit of knowledge, especially of the origins of the Dwarven people, not all hold goals of pure knowledge. High Explorer Dellorah is one of Brann's closest allies here, an insatiably curious woman who has ambitions to know... everything that can be known and quantified.

Others have motives that are more mixed. Others such as Muninn Magellas are genuinely interested in seeking the truth of the Titans, and the dwarves' origins.

But Magellas is also interested in finding more evidence to support the natural superiority of the dwarves. He believes that the Dwarves were chosen by the Titans, and that there is proof of that in the ruins of the Titans. To that end, he has dispatched teams all over Azeroth looking for traces of the Titan Cities, which the scattered records they have found suggest exist. That proof could convince more dwarves to see things Magellas's way. Maybe even convince non-dwarves of the natural superiority of dwarves.

Or find ways to make their lack of acceptance of that fact moot.

But equally, some have even less noble motives. Magellas may have a political dimension to his goals, but people like Khazgorm Lonebrow and Henrig Lonebrow seek to uncover the secrets of the past for little more than profit, and a greedy to own and accumulate. For these men, and their allies and backers, the goal is to find artifacts, and sell them, or hoard them, put them on display, to say 'look at what I have'. Conversation pieces to brag over, trophies to have for their own sake.

Of course, any given expedition may have a mix of all three groups, and all three have found themselves in alignment that there should be central repositories for these items. Perhaps even a place where some of the choicer bits can be put on display for the paying public to see. In Ironforge of course. All belonging to the League.

Finder's Keepers, after all.

To this end, Explorer's Leagues teams can be found all over Alliance territory, negotiating with local government and landowners for permission to what they can find. They do the same with the Cartels, who have little interest in sentimentality. But of course, Cartel land wasn't always goblin.

But some places are far less interested in seeing dwarves dig up their lands. In Azshara, or parts of the Barrens, the Thousand Needles. They have tried to avoid creating international incidents, but within, or near Hyjal Covenant and Grand Confederation territory, dwarves (and sometimes gnomes) can often be found. Digging. The Explorer's League is virtually at war with the Farraki after they broke open a Farraki tomb holding the remains of those trolls who were too damaged at one point or another to be raised.

The Night Elves and Tauren especially have protested to Ironforge, and Brann at least has tried to reign the worst excesses of the League in, but... on some level.

Isn't it better that these items belong to dwarves? That they be studied, and understood, rather than buried in tombs forever? A place where all the world can see them is good, right? He can understand and respect the positions of those who disagree, and yet...

The Explorer's League is the best and worst impulses of the dwarves - industriousness, diligence, a thirst for excellence and perfection. It is greed, and arrogance and pride. It is a thirst for knowledge, and a thirst for order at all costs.

The Explorer's League takes no sides in the disputes of the rest of Ironforge, and yet, it could be a microcosm of all of Ironforge, all it's own.2​




1: Given the reactive dearth of named Ironforge clans in the game, I am keeping the Stormpike as canon, but they're obviously nowhere near Alterac Valley. Given that Vandar was apparently willing to start a war with the Horde to get at some Stormpike relics in Alterac Valley (instead of, I don't know, just asking the Frostwolves for permission to dig), and what little dialogue he has, it's easy to place him as the bleeding edge hard-militarist wing of Magni's faction.

2: This whole bit is inspired by @Embler and @Reese here on SV, while I was discussing the dearth of major sketchy/gray/etc elements to the Ironforge as a whole. They mentioned the idea of the Explorer's League as a possible analogue to the British Museum and the cultural imperialism inherent in yanking all these artifacts from all over the world under the cover of some noble pursuit of knowledge. The IRL British Museum, and the whole discussion around countries (mostly in the global northwest) having stuff from other, poorer countries they may have previously ruled over or invaded, etc, on display and refusing to give them back is complicated, messy and not worth going into here. My own feelings on the subject are equally complicated, messy and again, not worth going into here. Regardless, it is an easy thing to sketchy/gray/morally problematic plot point for the dwarves, especially in line with the 'chosen by the Titans' and 'Ironforge really does seem to have escaped all the problems everyone else had' issues that could reinforce that tendency.

Bael Modan does not exist as of yet in this 'verse, but the mindset behind Bael Modan which included driving Tauren off their land because they were 'interfering with our digging' is certainly present within the Explorer's League.
 
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Ah, thanks.

By the way, I don't know if you'd thought of it already, but if you need more material for the Gnomeregan section, I had a thought earlier: What might various people and groups think it means for the old systems of society and governance that they failed this badly? That Gnomeregan fell not to an army of orcs or undead or demons, not to a mass uprising, not even to a magical accident -- but to a handful of traitors, who were able to so thoroughly bring the whole thing down?
 
Ah, thanks.

By the way, I don't know if you'd thought of it already, but if you need more material for the Gnomeregan section, I had a thought earlier: What might various people and groups think it means for the old systems of society and governance that they failed this badly? That Gnomeregan fell not to an army of orcs or undead or demons, not to a mass uprising, not even to a magical accident -- but to a handful of traitors, who were able to so thoroughly bring the whole thing down?
there is a strong 'anyone but Gelbin' constituency thanks to how he oversaw this failure, but that is a good point. Worth thinking on. Grazie
 
Kylia Quilor said:
there is a strong 'anyone but Gelbin' constituency thanks to how he oversaw this failure
...Huh. I'm really not sure how I hadn't thought of that before. Because, yeah, he not only oversaw it, it was an ostensible good friend of his behind it -- which he completely failed to notice or stop and which I'd guess actually made it easier for Thermaplugg to do what he did.
...Which just makes it even more odd-looking that, in canon, not only was Gelbin not voted out early on, he went on to hold the position of High Tinker for, well, WoW's entire run to date, as far as I know.

Kylia Quilor said:
but that is a good point. Worth thinking on. Grazie
Thanks. :)

(And it wasn't even any of the things outsiders might point to as the obvious risks to Gnomeregan. Allowing warlocks? Nope, no demons involved here. Willingness to engage in diplomacy with factions others consider too evil to be worth talking to? No foreign agents in sight here. Technology gone wrong? Sort of -- but only in the sense of being stronger than expected in the deliberate execution of a covert malign intent; it was the will and action of a user, not a malfunction, that was the trigger.

I could see there actually being warlocks, and their supporters, arguing that they should have a more prominent position in the government, because they've proven that they know how to keep dangerous systems involving sapient bad actors under safe control. Others arguing that the military and intelligence service should have more power -- not only might those being stronger have caught and stopped Thermaplugg, stronger existing military force might have worked well enough against the troggs that there was no perceived need to consider extreme plans such as the one he proposed. On the other hand, people arguing that what's needed is a less authoritarian system with a broader distribution of power, so that a friend of the High Tinker can't just get a handful of confederates together and do something like this. There might even be some people arguing that Thermaplugg had a point and was driven to extremes -- where things obviously went wrong -- by the system's refusal to consider his views.

And all of this debate, of course, is happening among the exiles -- meaning both that the question of how to retake Gnomeregan (or even whether to do so, vs. writing spending more blood and treasure on it off as the sunk cost fallacy and favoring building a new city (With the latest advancements built in from the start!) elsewhere) is still hanging over them, and that the debate will be happening in the shadow of the need to not annoy Ironforge too much (or, at the very least, quietly line up a difference sponsor first).

And while there may not have been foreign agents involved in the fall of Gnomeregan, I expect that there are different factions within (and possibly outside of) the Alliance involved in gnomish politics now. The exiles may not have much in the way of quantity of pretty much anything to offer -- but in terms of quality, they have brilliant engineers and mages, military special forces, probably most of the warlocks the Alliance considers acceptable to work with, all potentially available for relatively cheap at the moment due to the exiles' low resources... and there's the prospect of what deals might be available in the future, once Gnomeregan and its wealth are reclaimed.

...Well, I appear to have had rather more thoughts there than I was expecting. Feel free to use or not use any of that, as seems good to you here. :))
 
...Which just makes it even more odd-looking that, in canon, not only was Gelbin not voted out early on, he went on to hold the position of High Tinker for, well, WoW's entire run to date, as far as I know.
I'd say Blizzard's general unwillingness to get rid of characters is a big factor here. That and the Gnomes get the shittiest end of the stick as far as the Alliance members go in terms of actual focus. Which I'd guess Gnome fans actually prefer given the way Blizzard has written anyone they focus on.
I could see there actually being warlocks, and their supporters, arguing that they should have a more prominent position in the government, because they've proven that they know how to keep dangerous systems involving sapient bad actors under safe control.
Warlocks as the responsible ones? That is a frighteningly good point. :rofl: Thank you
probably most of the warlocks the Alliance considers acceptable to work with,
All of them right now. Gnomegeran actually has a number of human and dwarven warlocks as citizens, as (for now) Warlocking is illegal in all other Alliance members. Kul Tiras and Stromgarde will be the first to relax this rule once their observers/allies in the Argent Dawn see just how effective the Forsaken and Blood Elf Warlocks really are in mass numbers supporting conventional troops, in the Eastern Plaguelands War.

Jaina, ironically for all her being one of the more pragmatic members of the Alliance in most ways, will be dragged kicking and screaming into legalizing Warlockery in Theramore.
 
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