Ask the CC Anything!

[Lazer Raptor]

I don't know about everyone else (Though I feel that the whole confidentiality thing is a major strain in that regard.) but for me, again, I'm not sure what exactly to ask nor how to go about it. Do I just make threads? Mass PM a random group of people? How should I respond to them? The Staff and the CC (well mostly Whiskey really.) consider me bit of a gun jumper and that I should tone it back so I'm rather cautious about starting things. However, I'd like to change that, as late as it is, so feel free to air your dissatisifactions here.





Somewhere along those lines. Usually, those who appeal got in trouble for good reasons and so the punishment sticks, rarely is it because of the mod making a mistake. (That does happen though.) So we don't end up certing a lot of appeals because we agree with the Staff directive most of the time. It's only when they push it to Tribunal, there's disagreement among the CC and they cert it, or the Staff ask us to take it because it's something that would alter the atmosphere of SV.

But to address the elephant in the room, I suppose some of it could chalk up to "Why bother." considering how the Staff can elect to completely ignore the CC's decision and do their own thing. Admittedly CC is merely an advisory board, not an actual jury so it makes sense that the Staff can overrule us. However (Speaking in vague terms here since I actually don't know if that's how my fellow colleagues feel.) it is a bit disheartening to argue about a case (Especially if it succeeds.) only for all that effort to be tossed into the trash due to staff directive. I ain't saying that's the main reason why, but an answer that's different from the nearly standard boilerplate message of why CC don't cert.

Oh and to answer your other question, uhh...good point. Guess since it's more of an "informal' thing since they let me do it, I don't think they actually planned for this thread to come about so quickly. So probably will happen in a few hours/a day or so.

@Lazer Raptor

EXCUSE YOU THIS IS AN AMERICAN FORU- nah ahh...iunno what any of that means. Uhh, we're relatively low in terms of influence. More than a normal user as we can speak directly to the Staff daily and they come to us to ask for guidance but there's nothing more we can do. We can't actually force them to do anything if that's what you're wondering.

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That pretty much answers my question yeah.

I was referring to various Russian governing bodies in the aftermath of the Febuary Revolution.

The Petrograd Soviet was the one which had most popular will behind it, but it lacked recognition, even if it was effectively the Russian legislature. The Provisional government had power, but increasingly they began to grow irrelevant and unable to control the country. The Constitutional Assembly would have theoretically held both. The Supreme Soviet essentially rubberstamped decisions made by the top levels of the USSRs government.

Soviet approximates "council" in Russian.

Can you tell I've been reading Ten Days That Shook the World recently? Next thing I know I'll be asking people if they are a Left-SR or Menshevik.

 

[Hykal94]

Ahh but that's so awkward though!

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Listen PLOM people voted for you, awkwardness isn't an option. Besides, everyone is awkward so who cares.

 

[Private Lee O'Malley]

So the staff does not feel that knowing how councilors work, or that they work at all is an okay scenario? That council being elected on popularity and lulz is fine, and no extra show of skill should influence the votes?

There has been many a doubt that council is actually useful ever since squishy just ignored the council vote, but isn't this just pushing to make that view incredibly widespread?

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Honestly I'd say the fact we're voted in on popularity and lulz kinda discredits our rep in their eyes, NGL. Also uhh, okay I'm dumb, I can't parse the first sentence. Are you trying to say that the CC being effectively useless is an okay thing in their eyes or something? I woudn't go as far to say that, but we're just here to provide feedback really so us being powerless and not being able to effect much is probably "working as intended."

Again, the whole feedback thing but uhh...yeah Squishy is uhm...hm yeah an issue. As much as I loathe saying it, basically "We're working on it." Opinions are quite divided to say the least.

@Rodyle

Do you remember Polemarchos?

Because that's how you get Polemarchos.

 

[Rody 1/2]

Do you remember Polemarchos?

Because that's how you get Polemarchos.

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No I don't, so this is effectively not an answer.

I do however, note that juries who the defendants aren't allowed to plead their case to hardly seem like juries. Especially when those juries can freely decide of their own accord to start calling for heads to roll.

You seem to view your role as largely pointless because the staff will ignore you. By the same token, the users seem to consider you a hostile and, until just now, cloistered body. Perhaps being less hostile would help that reputation. You seem to want to solve the communication issue, let's solve this one too.

 

[DreamerGhost]

Honestly I'd say the fact we're voted in on popularity and lulz kinda discredits our rep in their eyes, NGL. Also uhh, okay I'm dumb, I can't parse the first sentence. Are you trying to say that the CC being effectively useless is an okay thing in their eyes or something? I woudn't go as far to say that, but we're just here to provide feedback really so us being powerless and not being able to effect much is probably "working as intended."

Again, the whole feedback thing but uhh...yeah Squishy is uhm...hm yeah an issue. As much as I loathe saying it, basically "We're working on it." Opinions are quite divided to say the least.

@Rodyle

Do you remember Polemarchos?

Because that's how you get Polemarchos.

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Yeah, I messed that first sentence up. What I meant was, seeing the tribunals, even if it's all just condemnations from the council, would allow people to see how the councilors think and allow people to consider that when deciding whether or not to reelect the councilors. That the staff considers this factor not be important enough to reveal the tribunals shows how little they think the actual work quality of the councilors impacts the election, making the reputation of position even worse.

 

[Ralson]

Are you the Petrograd Soviet, Constitutional Assembly, Provisional Government, or Supreme Soviet?

Basically, how much influence do you think you have, and how well do you think you do your jobs?

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The council has an advisory role, but has considerable leverage to apply social pressure to influence the staff, if it chose to act as a united body.

 

[Private Lee O'Malley]

Okay so I made a discord channel.

PM me if you want access. This thread should more than suffice, but if you're really paranoid about the Staff snooping on in, then the Discord chat is the way to go.

 

[Hykal94]

"There are no staff ninjas!"



hmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Private Lee O'Malley]

No I don't, so this is effectively not an answer.

I do however, note that juries who the defendants aren't allowed to plead their case to hardly seem like juries. Especially when those juries can freely decide of their own accord to start calling for heads to roll.

You seem to view your role as largely pointless because the staff will ignore you. By the same token, the users seem to consider you a hostile and, until just now, cloistered body. Perhaps being less hostile would help that reputation. You seem to want to solve the communication issue, let's solve this one too.

Click to shrink...

Heh yeah, suppose it's unfair to assume that everyone would know everything about SV's history. Basically Polemarchos started getting angry about what the CC were saying about him and then it lead to the CC arguing with him, capping it off with him going "Y'all have shriveled micropenises." (Yes he said that.) So that's why.

The Staff will listen to us, it's just, well, we're at the whims of the Directors if they actually enact on what we say. I'm not sure how we're being hostile but alright, we'll begin that today!

 

[Whiskey Golf]

Yeah, I messed that first sentence up. What I meant was, seeing the tribunals, even if it's all just condemnations from the council, would allow people to see how the councilors think and allow people to consider that when deciding whether or not to reelect the councilors. That the staff considers this factor not be important enough to reveal the tribunals shows how little they think the actual work quality of the councilors impacts the election, making the reputation of position even worse.

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As a general rule, Tribunals get revealed in the end tho, after deliberations and things are done. There are some who wax poetic about having the deliberations live for all to see, but I was there when we used to do that and it was not a very good experience and I am not in favor of going back to that.

Edit: I also want to stress that as a general rule Tribunals are made public. Now, there are cases where the Tribunal is made private and not public... but that is at the request of the apellant.

What's the point in not letting the plaintiffs and staff in an appeal respond to councillor accusations thrown against them, however wild, escalatory, or tangential to the actual appeal they might be?

To a degree I understand wanting to keep tribunal deliberations to the tribunal, however the tribunal, it seems, is fond of adding plenty of chafe of its own, so it is difficult to see how much worse the plaintiffs and staff could make it.

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No I don't, so this is effectively not an answer.

I do however, note that juries who the defendants aren't allowed to plead their case to hardly seem like juries. Especially when those juries can freely decide of their own accord to start calling for heads to roll.

Click to shrink...

Gonna put these two together to answer them - we're not a jury because we don't have the binding power of a jury, we're pretty much an advisory gut check body. As for why we don't allow back and forth between appellants and CC, it's because that sort of thing has a tendency to devolve into arguing and trainwrecks. That is never going to end well.

As for Polemarchos, well... yeah.


Edit: looking through this subforum you can publicly see the cases sent to tribunal.

 

[bidoof]

To all the councillors:

What do you think of the current state of N&P? What do you consider to be the most important problems facing the subforum, and how would you address them?

 

[Private Lee O'Malley]

To all the councillors:

What do you think of the current state of N&P? What do you consider to be the most important problems facing the subforum, and how would you address them?

Click to shrink...

Leftist circle jerk that's currently on course to being even more hysterical. Gonna be blunt here: I feel like if I state one thing that's slightly positive towards the right, I'll be derided as a traitor of sorts. I think we need to remind people that the Right is still made up of living human beings and that screaming about how much they hate them is probably why no one goes there anymore. I mean, it's pretty much Center Left vs Far Left at this point ain't it? More civility will be nice.

Though to be honest, I've got no silver bullet for you. In fact, it's something we're discussing right now. Some say we should loosen up on Rule 4, some say we should tighten it, others think Rule 2 and 3 should be tightened in exchange for Rule 4 being loose, etc. I think we pushed it back since neither side have anything concrete to enact on yet. It's kinda left up to the Directors' hands at this point methinks.

 

[Rody 1/2]

That the politics subforum reflects the general politics of the larger forum seems logical. As an elected representative of those users, isn't it your job to stand for them, not to try and make N&P into Whitehall?

 

[Private Lee O'Malley]

That the politics subforum reflects the general politics of the larger forum seems logical. As an elected representative of those users, isn't it your job to stand for them, not to try and make N&P into Whitehall?

Click to shrink...

Explain? What do you mean, it should reflect the general politics of the larger forum?

"Not to try and make N&P into Whitehall" Define Whitehall and what you mean by your statement. (I'm trying not to do a Squishy I promise I actually don't know what you're talking about.)

 

[Rody 1/2]

Explain? What do you mean, it should reflect the general politics of the larger forum?

"Not to try and make N&P into Whitehall" Define Whitehall and what you mean by your statement. (I'm trying not to do a Squishy I promise I actually don't know what you're talking about.)

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Whitehall is SB's politics forum. If you aren't familiar it's not worth getting into. As for what I mean, SV is a board dominated by the left and center. That the right would be unwelcome, particularly in the politics zone, seems a feature, not a bug.

Gonna put these two together to answer them - we're not a jury because we don't have the binding power of a jury, we're pretty much an advisory gut check body. As for why we don't allow back and forth between appellants and CC, it's because that sort of thing has a tendency to devolve into arguing and trainwrecks. That is never going to end well.

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I can see why the staff would find the barrier between CC and appellant easier at least.

 

[Whiskey Golf]

That the politics subforum reflects the general politics of the larger forum seems logical. As an elected representative of those users, isn't it your job to stand for them, not to try and make N&P into Whitehall?

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Funnily enough, despite generating a lot of drama and a IMO a disproportionate amount of reports, N&P is actually pretty smalltime as far as forum activity goes. Quests and User Fiction see a lot more activity than N&P. Which kinda makes sense, since being a political forum isn't what SV was founded on being.

 

[Private Lee O'Malley]

Whitehall is SB's politics forum. If you aren't familiar it's not worth getting into. As for what I mean, SV is a board dominated by the left and center. That the right would be unwelcome, particularly in the politics zone, seems a feature, not a bug.

I can see why the staff would find the barrier between CC and appellant easier at least.

Click to shrink...

So it is a matter of opinion then, I see. Now, how do you suppose the politics of N&P (A relatively minor board compared to the rest of SV.) would apply to SV as a whole? I mean, I wouldn't mind if we had more quests about shooting Nazis if that's what you had in mind.

 

[Rody 1/2]

Funnily enough, despite generating a lot of drama and a IMO a disproportionate amount of reports, N&P is actually pretty smalltime as far as forum activity goes. Quests and User Fiction see a lot more activity than N&P. Which kinda makes sense, since being a political forum isn't what SV was founded on being.

Click to shrink...

It was not founded as that, no. It is, however, not a coincidence that SB dropped into the right wing crapper after the split and that SV is notably leftward of SB.

So it is a matter of opinion then, I see. Now, how do you suppose the politics of N&P (A relatively minor board compared to the rest of SV.) would apply to SV as a whole? I mean, I wouldn't mind if we had more quests about shooting Nazis if that's what you had in mind.

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N&P is what it is because of the site's userbase, not the other way around. It is a microcosm.

 

[Private Lee O'Malley]

It was not founded as that, no. It is, however, not a coincidence that SB dropped into the right wing crapper after the split and that SV is notably leftward of SB.

N&P is what it is because of the site's userbase, not the other way around. It is a microcosm.

Click to shrink...

oookaaaayyyy so are you saying we should loosen up on Rule 3 for everything because N&P users want that? Like are you saying you want N&P to determine the rest of the site's course? (As minute as it is?) Maybe I'm not understanding you properly, but that sounds like a bad idea no offense.

 

[Ralson]

As a general rule, Tribunals get revealed in the end tho, after deliberations and things are done. There are some who wax poetic about having the deliberations live for all to see, but I was there when we used to do that and it was not a very good experience and I am not in favor of going back to that.

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1) Hi that's me
2) I was on the council at the time and it didn't seem a big problem to me.

oookaaaayyyy so are you saying we should loosen up on Rule 3 for everything because N&P users want that? Like are you saying you want N&P to determine the rest of the site's course? (As minute as it is?) Maybe I'm not understanding you properly, but that sounds like a bad idea no offense.

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That's not what he said. He just said N&P tends to be mostly leftist and center-leftist because that's what SVers tend to be.

I'm not sure if I fully agree, since maybe there's more right-leaning posters on the site who steer clear, but don't put words in his mouth.

 

[Private Lee O'Malley]

1) Hi that's me
2) I was on the council at the time and it didn't seem a big problem to me.
That's not what he said. He just said N&P tends to be mostly leftist and center-leftist because that's what SVers tend to be.

I'm not sure if I fully agree, since maybe there's more right-leaning posters on the site who steer clear, but don't put words in his mouth.

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Oh okay. I don't agree with that then, there's quite a few right leaning posters (Such as our resident Foamy) who do steer clear because of the climate in N&P. Right, sorry, I'll try not to do that next time.

 

[Rody 1/2]

oookaaaayyyy so are you saying we should loosen up on Rule 3 for everything because N&P users want that? Like are you saying you want N&P to determine the rest of the site's course? (As minute as it is?) Maybe I'm not understanding you properly, but that sounds like a bad idea no offense.

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Aside from Ralson's clarification, I am saying it is your job to represent the userbase, not to use your position to put your finger on the scale and attempt to turn N&P into something more friendly to your side of of the political spectrum.

 

[Private Lee O'Malley]

Aside from Ralson's clarification, I am saying it is your job to represent the userbase, not to use your position to put your finger on the scale and attempt to turn N&P into something more friendly to your side of of the political spectrum.

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My side of the political spectrum is Left, same as you actually so...

Plus I am trying to represent the userbase, not just your side. Some folks don't like the fact that you're making N&P more hostile, I mean, if everyone agreed with you, wouldn't have more people protested? Make a big stink about how they're oppressing the users? Saying how draconic the Staff is being? There are those who agree with you and there are those who don't. Otherwise N&P would actually be an echo chamber.

 

[Rody 1/2]

Plus I am trying to represent the userbase, not just your side. Some folks don't like the fact that you're making N&P more hostile, I mean, if everyone agreed with you, wouldn't have more people protested? Make a big stink about how they're oppressing the users? Saying how draconic the Staff is being? There are those who agree with you and there are those who don't. Otherwise N&P would actually be an echo chamber.

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What would they be protesting? Decisions made behind closed doors, weeks, months even after the fact? To who? The staff that makes those decisions, or the council that backs them? Where? The communication lines that effectively didn't exist until just now? Sure, they could contact you privately and, oh hey, they have, but private lines of communication with individuals or groups are not the same thing as an open thread for the whole forum to speak up in.

 

[Private Lee O'Malley]

What would they be protesting? Decisions made behind closed doors, weeks, months even after the fact? To who? The staff that makes those decisions, or the council that backs them? Where? The communication lines that effectively didn't exist until just now? Sure, they could contact you privately and, oh hey, they have, but private lines of communication with individuals or groups are not the same thing as an open thread for the whole forum to speak up in.

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The angry big red banner that says "THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE."? The Ask a Private Question Forum? Heck hold on...

"Discussion - Spaghetti Posting Announcement"

"Discussion - An Ongoing Discussion About the Ongoing Problem"

"Discussion - Re: Rule 2 Clarification"

"Suggestion - Please stop locking so many Current Affairs threads"

"Discussion - disgustingly excessive punitive action"

People have argued about Staff policy publicily before. While the Staff would prefer that this be done done through the AAPQ it is something people have done. If it's a general issue the users perceieve about the forum, they can discuss it publicily in this board.

Though I must admit it is something that does not happen often for possibly your reasons above.