Another Way [Nanoha oneshot]

[Winchester]

Chaos theory, as far as I'm aware (though I'm not exactly well read on the subject) doesn't *guarantee* anything. It *might* cause Hayate to not be born. It *might* cause everyone in the entire universe that hadn't been concieved yet at the time to not be born. There's no way to predict this, though, because while in some cases the knock-on changes will shift things further and further away from the OTL, in others they'll cancel each other out. Even on the microscopic scale.

The beauty of Chaos Theory is that we can't test it full-scale, because we can't recreate exact starting conditions and then change just one thing, so we don't *know* how bad the effects will be.

 

[Iron Roby]

Um, not really. Because the chance that Hayate was born was incredibly small in the first place, even a very small butterfly would more than suffice. Hayate being born is not some "set condition" that would have guarantees or could protect itself against ripples.

I was sad, but EarthScorpion's explanation made perfect sense. I remember wondering about the same characters still being born myself, when I read time travel and alternate universe stories and I didn't even know about the Chaos Theory yet, just about butterflies and the process of human egg fertilization.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Its "Any sufficiently advanced technology" and it works only when the observer is not sufficiently advanced himself. There should be an achievable threshold of "sufficiently advanced" in our material universe when one can safely say "that's only possible if its supernatural/extra-universal".


And Nanoha-verse magic is science and magic, it's a field of science about magic. The scientific "magic" can coexist with mythical "magic" in the same way that real science can coexist with the fictional descriptions of comic book "super" science. TSAB people can understand the difference just by living in their society, like we understand that comic book science has nothing to do with the real one.

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Which is one of the obnoxious things about Nanoha, from Yuuno's point of view, in Game Theory. "Oh," she goes, "magical girls do it in stories, so I should be able to do it too!"


"No, Nanoha," he begins, "magic doesn't work that w..."


"Look!" she says excitedly. "I just managed to make high-explosive petals fan out from my Divine Shooter shots, like a cluster-bomb effect! Isn't it pretty!"


...


And it should be noted that in the Gamesverse, and in Another Way too, there's rather a lot of translation-convention going on. Fate, and everyone else from dimensional space isn't speaking Japanese; their Devices are just dubbing them in (to the extent that observant people can notice that their lips don't quite match up with their words), and likewise Belkan isn't really German. It's just a language which has the same relationship to Mid as German does to English. Fate and Nanoha in Game Theory, if you took their Devices away from each other, wouldn't even be able to stumble through a conversation; they have no language in common at all.


Arf, in her role as Best Familiar, can translate, because she's compatible with Device language update protocols.

Hence, when the narration and the characters use the word "Magic", they're translating a concept which probably doesn't really exist on Earth into its nearest equivalent. It's like how in AEE, the sentence "Please. This isn't magic, it's sorcery," makes perfect sense.

 

[Jonen C]

On a tangential note, one wonders if - after years of studying English in Japanese schools - it is the one language both Fate and Nanoha can converse in with mutual and equal understanding (that is to say, neither part misses any subtleties of the others meaning) without device aided translation. Or I should probably say Engrish.

Of course, by then Nanoha has probably learned Mid enough to be fluent, if with a weird accent, and Fate can probably manage Japanese and only occasionally flub an idiom or two.

 

[Aleph]

If it helps, sequels of Another Way probably wouldn't focus on Hayate/person in her role much. Though I suppose I might make them male, just for a change, and possibly have it happen on the other side of the Dimensional Sea, and have Graham's plan go off without a hitch so that they're sacrificed as part of the cost of destroying the Book permanently. As one possibility.

But things would be rather knocked off course before that, by the changes that happen prior to the original series even starting.

 

[Aleph]

Personally, I wouldn't expect Alicia and Momoko's day to change too much for the TSAB (hell, if we assume my theory on the cause of the explosion on the jewel seed ship is correct, not even that will happen), mostly because all she has is a natural aptitude and the magical equivalent of how to how to ride a bike with training wheels. Sure, she could figure out more, but the likelyhood of the TSAB noticing is rather slim.

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It is truly adorable how you think that someone who has an incredible natural aptitude for magic and who is friends with the beloved daughter of one of the most powerful and skilled mages in Dimensional Space is going to stay on earth, teach herself and not make waves.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Yeah, but if you go by pure real life physics thats exactly what would happen. These guys aren't running their universes off narrativium. Aleph also has no compunctions against OC's either. Mostly because she does them very well.

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Well, we sort of do run them off narrativium (the development discussions on Skype and the beta-reading comments are... well, they'd probably be much like watching how people make sausages just before eating them), but we try to have it form a compound with verisimilitudygen. That rather limits what you can do, because verisimilitudygen is unstable, and decays if subjected to stress or shear on the SOD tensor, but it does mean that the universe runs in a much better way and needs far less maintenance, as well as being able to support more complicated things that an old-fashioned "we just had things happen because of story" would implode if it tried to do.

 

[Aleph]

The only problem with that approach, so to speak, is that verisimilitudygen is also highly volatile, and therefore tends to sublimate as we work with it. So we end up inhaling some, and then spend the next few weeks going "but look, seriously now, Mufasa probably murdered all the cubs of the pride leader he displaced, and Simba's going to kill all of the cubs that Scar has undoubtedly sired as soon as he takes over. And while we're on the topic of Simba, is this movie seriously trying to tell us that he went from a cub to a healthy adult lion on a diet of bugs while living with a warthog and a meerkat, otherwise known as "lunch" and "side dish"?"

Which is... an experience, to be sure. One that sort of tends to get in the way of watching or reading certain media.

 

[EarthScorpion]

The only problem with that approach, so to speak, is that verisimilitudygen is also highly volatile, and therefore tends to sublimate as we work with it. So we end up inhaling some, and then spend the next few weeks going "but look, seriously now, Mufasa probably murdered all the cubs of the pride leader he displaced, and Simba's going to kill all of the cubs that Scar has undoubtedly sired as soon as he takes over. And while we're on the topic of Simba, is this movie seriously trying to tell us that he went from a cub to a healthy adult lion on a diet of bugs while living with a warthog and a meerkat, otherwise known as "lunch" and "side dish"?

Which is... an experience, to be sure. One that sort of tends to get in the way of watching or reading certain media.

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Let's not even get started on the fact that, given the way that lion packs work, Nala is probably his half-sister, because Simba's father will have tried his level best to be the father of all the other lions of his generation. Or the fact that Scar's methods were perfectly normal for a lion pack. Hence, by lion standards, Simba taking the throne from Scar was just as legitimate as Scar taking it from Simba's father. Hence, that makes Simba a murderous, incestuous usurper/tyrant. Just like real world lion alphas!

So I just link Aleph to Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt bits, which is at least unshamed of the fact that the protagonists are terrible people, and so it can be watched in peace.

 

[Iron Roby]

@Aleph & EarthScorpion

You are not smoking enough verisimilitudygen, because you didn't notice that you are dealing with obviously sapient lions and other animals, possibly mutants born from Alhazredian familiar experimentation. The whole area is likely a nature reserve for animals easier to uplift.

The lions have probably overgrown some of their instinctual behavior with traditions and taboos, same like human society doesn't act exactly like chimpanzees or bonobos anymore.

And now, lions have formed a proto-monarchistic tribal culture and seek to subjucate, not just eat, other sapient savannah animals. They have even invented a deeply speciest lion supremacy ideology, that the lion is "the king of the jungle".

Ok, I am assuming that Precia's reaction to Alicia's day out will be to keep even tighter watch on her and disallow any further contact with Momoko. It seems to fit the presentation of her in the fic. Thus Momoko being forced to figure out the rest on her own, probably experiencing all kinds of hilarious hijinks while she's at it. If I'm wrong, there is no reason to be rude about it.

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That got me thinking. Messing with a native of an unadministrated world is potential legal trouble and potential legal trouble is the last thing that Precia needs. She probably still has enemies, that would twist it into her trying to take over Earth with a native puppet ruler or something equally crazy.

 

[Aleph]

@Aleph & EarthScorpion


You are not smoking enough verisimilitudygen, because you didn't notice that you are dealing with obviously sapient lions and other animals, possibly mutants born from Alhazredian familiar experimentation. The whole area is likely a nature reserve for animals easier to uplift.

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Nah. "Talking animals" is something we can accept as an axiom, in the same way as we can accept "magic exists". Verisimilitude just demands that things follow logically and realistically from the axioms. And while they may be talking lions, they're still fundamentally lions.

That got me thinking. Messing with a native of an unadministrated world is potential legal trouble and potential legal trouble is the last thing that Precia needs. She probably still has enemies, that would twist it into her trying to take over Earth with a native puppet ruler or something equally crazy.

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Actually no, not after this long. It's been five years, the funders of the project are all in jail, and she's basically dropped completely out of the public eye and has been a recluse for the past half-decade. And there are limited exceptions made for exceptional magical talent (Gil, for instance), which Momoko certainly qualifies as. What will probably happen is that Alicia will be grounded for a month, before badgering her mother enough to at least take a look at her "really talented new friend", and Precia will then go "... oh my," and take her on as an apprentice. Because seriously, the girl has some major talent there, and is an insanely fast learner. Teachers always like a student who can soak up knowledge literally as fast as it can be provided.


And then Momoko bowls onto the scene in Dimensional Space as Precia returns from her period of hermitage with an astonishing new prodigy as an apprentice. And things almost immediately start going off-track in various hilarious ways.

 

[EarthScorpion]

And then Momoko bowls onto the scene in Dimensional Space as Precia returns from her period of hermitage with an astonishing new prodigy as an apprentice. And things almost immediately start going off-track in various hilarious ways.

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Alicia: "We're moving back to Mid? You mean... I get to join an academy? And get to meet people, and make friends in school, and go out into towns more than a few times a year? I've... I've wanted to do that since I read about it in books! And... in time, I might be able to go out on my own - with friends of course - rather than being with Mama or Linith?" *pumps fist* "Best day ever!"

 

[Iron Roby]

Nah. "Talking animals" is something we can accept as an axiom, in the same way as we can accept "magic exists". Verisimilitude just demands that things follow logically and realistically from the axioms. And while they may be talking lions, they're still fundamentally lions.

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Nah right back at ya . Humans are fundamentally still talking apes too, but the talking part means that we have some form of a society that has suppressed some of our instincts with taboos and traditions. There is no reason to not think the same about talking animals, if you don't believe that humans are inherently special. If you take the consequences of magic existing to its logical conclusions, then the same applies to obviously sapient talking animals.

And then Momoko bowls onto the scene in Dimensional Space as Precia returns from her period of hermitage with an astonishing new prodigy as an apprentice. And things almost immediately start going off-track in various hilarious ways.

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That could create an interesting dynamic between Momoko and Alicia. Would she get jealous of her mother's attention and Momoko's talent or would she be too busy feeling joy for having a best friend and all the excitement it would bring?

 

[Aleph]

Nah right back at ya . Humans are fundamentally still talking apes too, but the talking part means that we have some form of a society that has suppressed some of our instincts with taboos and traditions. There is no reason to not think the same about talking animals, if you don't believe that humans are inherently special. If you take the consequences of magic existing to its logical conclusions, then the same applies to obviously sapient talking animals.

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Huh? Where's your evidence that talking suppressed instincts? That it would suppress leonine instincts in the same way? We have societies like we do because we're smart apes, not because we talk. It makes no sense to assume that giving an animal the power of speech will make its society more human-like, let alone speculating that it would fundamentally alter basic aspects of their behaviour.

That could create an interesting dynamic between Momoko and Alicia. Would she get jealous of her mother's attention and Momoko's talent or would she be too busy feeling joy for having a best friend and all the excitement it would bring?

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*smile*

 

[Iron Roby]

Huh? Where's your evidence that talking suppressed instincts? That it would suppress leonine instincts in the same way? We have societies like we do because we're smart apes, not because we talk. It makes no sense to assume that giving an animal the power of speech will make its society more human-like, let alone speculating that it would fundamentally alter basic aspects of their behaviour.

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No its the sapience that suppresses instincts by having those sapient beings form a society with taboos, like the one where they call their leader "king" Simba. And talking in a way that forms grammatic sentences and contains abstract terms and is inextinguishable from human speech, is empirical proof of sapience.

Yes, it's unnatural for the alpha male lion to not to kill the cubs sired by the previous alpha, like it is unnatural for humans to limit themselves to monogamous sexual pairings, but social taboos can repress reproductive instincts like that.

In a hypothetical society of sapient lions there would probably be a great temptation for the males to kill other's cubs sometimes, but the majority could be imagined to successfully suppress that desire most of the time, if the social taboos demand it, like they probably do in Lion King.

*smile*

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[Aleph]

No its the sapience that suppresses instincts by having those sapient beings form a society with taboos, like the one where they call their leader "king" Simba. And talking in a way that forms grammatic sentences and contains abstract terms and is inextinguishable from human speech, is empirical proof of sapience.

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I'm still stuck at the part where speech magically suppresses instincts and creates taboos. How do you know it'll create those taboos?

Yes, it's unnatural for the alpha male lion to not to kill the cubs sired by the previous alpha, like it is unnatural for humans to limit themselves to monogamous sexual pairings, but social taboos can repress reproductive instincts like that.

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It's not, actually. There are definite benefits to monogamy, and I'm pretty sure humans were pairing up before they got much of a language going.

It just seems like you're assuming these taboos will form without any real basis for why, or even (if we take it that some will), why those ones.


However. This is the Another Way thread, not the Social Implications Of Sapience On Leonine Behaviour As Hinted At In The Lion King thread. Perhaps a relocation to a more apt thread or a change of topic would be called for.

 

[Iron Roby]

However. This is the Another Way thread, not the Social Implications Of Sapience On Leonine Behaviour As Hinted At In The Lion King thread. Perhaps a relocation to a more apt thread or a change of topic would be called for.

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All right, I concede then. I'm not going into the annals of SpaceBattles history as that banned guy who made the infamous "Does Simba kill cubs and then have sex with his half-sister?" thread.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Yes, it's unnatural for the alpha male lion to not to kill the cubs sired by the previous alpha, like it is unnatural for humans to limit themselves to monogamous sexual pairings, but social taboos can repress reproductive instincts like that.

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I will point out that, actually, if you take the species devoid of the lies we tell ourselves, humans aren't strictly monogamous. The rate of cheating in relationships is enough proof of that; the blood-group-based "this child cannot be the child of the person allegedly their father" percentages are... interesting. Terms used for humanity as a whole are things like "weakly polygamous" and "ambiguously monogamous".


Which suggests that if these hypothetical lions have a similar "eating other male's babies" rate to the human "infidelity" rate... well.

And to tie it back into things, in a monogamous society, game theory holds that the optimal position for both men and women to be in is to have multiple partners, but for their "official" partner to be faithful - that's why we have social mechanisms to discourage it. And it would be foolish to over-apply the current Western paradigm to societies globally right now - certainly, when culturally building Alhazredian and Belkan-era cultures, we'll take account of the full heterogeneity of human societies.


So... it's a complicated, beyond the confines of this thread topic.

 

[TheLastOne]

I will point out that, actually, if you take the species devoid of the lies we tell ourselves, humans aren't strictly monogamous. The rate of cheating in relationships is enough proof of that; the blood-group-based "this child cannot be the child of the person allegedly their father" percentages are... interesting. Terms used for humanity as a whole are things like "weakly polygamous" and "ambiguously monogamous".

Which suggests that if these hypothetical lions have a similar "eating other male's babies" rate to the human "infidelity" rate... well.

And to tie it back into things, in a monogamous society, game theory holds that the optimal position for both men and women to be in is to have multiple partners, but for their "official" partner to be faithful - that's why we have social mechanisms to discourage it. And it would be foolish to over-apply the current Western paradigm to societies globally right now - certainly, when culturally building Alhazredian and Belkan-era cultures, we'll take account of the full heterogeneity of human societies.

So... it's a complicated, beyond the confines of this thread topic.

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Actually, humans have some level of "killing other peoples babies" instinct going on themselves, it's just that socialization and culture has almost completely suppressed it. Look at studies of how adopted children are treated (remember that you have to go out of your way to adopt).

Talking means that you start trading ideas, and you can internalize ideas until they seem as natural as instinct. That's what successful memes do, and a culture really is little more then a group of successful memes.

 

[Jonen C]

The Lion King is obviously a poorly hidden analogy for the DUTY of America and the First World to intervene in the affairs of Human Resource Rich Countries: Mufasa represents the old order of government who promoted the traditional, enlightened post-colonialist order - the Circle of Life, I'll discuss that in a bit, contrasting the Savannah with the Jungle - which is then overthrown by the dissatisfied scavengers and profiteers and their manipulative leader Scar.

Simba represents the proteges of the old order who flee the country to seek asylum in the western realm of plenty - the Jungle as opposed to the Savannah. On the Savannah, there are more animals than there is "food" (the animals are not presented as food and as such we can safely ignore that factor), so the only way things will work is by everyone accepting their lot in life and working together. No one rises above their station or leaves their place in the circle of life. No one strives to have more than their fair share.
In the jungle, however, food is plentiful but other animals are comparatively few and far between, and one is free to gorge themselves in what is available.
In this environment, Simba meets and makes friends with Timon and Pumba, presenting the carefree western view of life - No Worries for the rest of your days. Also gorge themselves on junk food, but discuss philosophy. Basically: Simba goes to university in the west.

Then, on meeting another protege of the old order who did not escape the country when things went bad, but who has now found her way to the realm of plenty, Simba realizes something must be done and brings his new western friends back to the Savannah to depose Scar and chase off the scavengers who have run the country into the ground with their exploitative methods. It is telling that when Simba and Nala present a new heir to the people of the Savannah, Timon and Pumba are in prominent positions as royal advisers.

To an extent it is possible to argue that this could also be seen as Scar and the Hyenas being a representative of a more exploitative Colonial regime, but you have to remember the hyenas are doing it because they wanted to eat more, and are residents of the country themselves, dissatisfied with their lot in the circle of life. This means that they represent the forces within the third world who wishes to rise above their current position in the world economic order and achieve a western standard of living, something which the Savannah's economy will not support for long, and certainly not without a great deal of grief and suffering for the other residents of the Savannah not of the privileged classes.

But that is the Lion King - this thread is Another Way.

Maybe Precia will take Momoko under her wing with the intent of training someone to look after Alicia when Precia herself is gone, realizing her mortality?

 

[Khaos]

The Lion King is obviously a poorly hidden analogy for the DUTY of America and the First World to intervene in the affairs of Human Resource Rich Countries: Mufasa represents the old order of government who promoted the traditional, enlightened post-colonialist order - the Circle of Life, I'll discuss that in a bit, contrasting the Savannah with the Jungle - which is then overthrown by the dissatisfied scavengers and profiteers and their manipulative leader Scar.


[..]

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I don't know how to say it, but you broke my mind

 

[Iron Roby]

The Lion King is obviously a poorly hidden analogy for the DUTY of America and the First World to intervene in the affairs of Human Resource Rich Countries: /.../


Maybe Precia will take Momoko under her wing with the intent of training someone to look after Alicia when Precia herself is gone, realizing her mortality?

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First, I'm not starting all that Lion King discussion again.


Second, that's an idea, although it's doubtful that the overprotective and repentant Scar Precia would not last at least until Alicia is an adult, given the position of this story on the Game Theory's timescale. And Savannah's TSAB's society seems enlightened enough, that you don't need a powerful alpha mage as a patron to get by, but having a strong big lioness "sis" watching out for Alicia may be a pleasant thought for Precia.


Unless taking Simba... *shakes head rapidly* Momoko as an apprentice will just cause more trouble to the cubs girls, than it would bring protection.

 

[MrEmperor]

The Lion King is obviously a poorly hidden analogy for the DUTY of America and the First World to intervene in the affairs of Human Resource Rich Countries: Mufasa represents the old order of government who promoted the traditional, enlightened post-colonialist order - the Circle of Life, I'll discuss that in a bit, contrasting the Savannah with the Jungle - which is then overthrown by the dissatisfied scavengers and profiteers and their manipulative leader Scar.

*snip*

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Oh Spacebattles, never change.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Um, not really. Because the chance that Hayate was born was incredibly small in the first place, even a very small butterfly would more than suffice. Hayate being born is not some "set condition" that would have guarantees or could protect itself against ripples.

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You know, the way you phrased that meant that a random thought struck me. Hayate has no temporal protection at all, so to speak, but Vivio actually has rather a lot. Jail is in play by this point, and that means that, Jail being Jail, he's going to eventually get the idea of cloning a Belkan king, even if he doesn't find the Cradle, and Vivio, considering that the relic with Olvie's blood on it is a known, not-that-guarded-to-someone-with-shapeshifting-ninjas artifact... there's a good chance that Jail will settle on an Olivie-clone.

The major Vivio-removing divergence I can think of is either something happening to Jail, or him getting his hands on another Belkan lineage first and not finding the Cradle. For example, if he got his hands in Ixpelia, he'd probably go into studying the Mariage. And then, yes, probably try to take over the TSAB with a horde of suicide-bomber murder-zombies.

Because that's how he rolls. Like a science-boss.

 

[linkhyrule5]

That said, someone being born anyway doesn't really strain my SOD. Hayate has precisely as much chance to be born as anyone else, and bigger coincidences happen all the time in fiction.