Will everybody stop arguing about this! There is nothing of value being added anymore, so agree to disagree already!

"Agree to disagree" when used in such a pathetic, debate-ending way is nothing less than the mewling complaints of someone who doesn't like the way that the argument is going. It's not even cute. It's simply an attempt to shut down a fairly well-reasoned civil debate between several participants, who were mostly posting paragraphs of reasoned argument, with a dull, meaningless, thoughtless one line.

It's especially bad when someone like @Amorous Intent brings out a point which brings into question all of Worms's claims to having sci-fi as more than a mere secondary aesthetic, and the best you can manage is "Let's agree to disagree". Do you also pull that out when the Flat Earth Society comes to town? "Let's agree to disagree" is a transparent disengagement attempt - except you weren't even engaged. So you just strolled into the thread and decided the best thing to do was to try to shut down the conversation, which was relatively on topic and at least somewhat interesting.
 
In that case:
Then we have the powers of Coil and Dinah. Despite what you might think, word of god is that both of these are precognition powers performed by computers the size of a planet. Okay, simulating a planet with sufficient detail to predict the future is a transcomputational problem, so that makes sense. But there's a problem here. Coil can perfectly predict the answers Dinah will give, in blatant violation of the halting problem, which states that no computer of equivalent mathematical complexity can determine the answer to an algorithm faster than running it, and this is true for the entire arithmetical hierarchy. The only side effect is that Dinah's numbers change, meaning that her shard is capable of predicting the actions of an actor that has full access to an even more powerful computer!
No, there is no Word of God on how pre-cog operates. Wildbow intentionally went out of his way to avoid explaining. That said, information time-travel makes a lot more sense, for both the reasons you outlined, and others, such as Phir Se and Epoch having actual time-travel powers.
 
In that case:
No, there is no Word of God on how pre-cog operates. Wildbow intentionally went out of his way to avoid explaining. That said, information time-travel makes a lot more sense, for both the reasons you outlined, and others, such as Phir Se and Epoch having actual time-travel powers.
While I agree, when adding time travel to the mix is the thing that makes more sense, we know the author's gone too far...
 
In that case:
No, there is no Word of God on how pre-cog operates. Wildbow intentionally went out of his way to avoid explaining. That said, information time-travel makes a lot more sense, for both the reasons you outlined, and others, such as Phir Se and Epoch having actual time-travel powers.
I don't have the quote on hand at the moment, but the main thrust of my point is true regardless of whether the shards are CTC computers or Turing machines, as the halting problem applies to every machine in the arithmetical hierarchy, both Turing and oracle. It still falls apart because Coil's power doesn't actually spin off a new universe to query Dinah in:

Wildbow said:
Coil's power doesn't create universes. It's essentially precognition in the present, purely thought based.
This means that Coil's power necessarily simulates Dinah's. Invoking some physical process that is exploited to make the computation easier (or even trivial) only pushes the brunt of the work over to an oracle. It doesn't make the problem go away or be any less problematic. Invoking time travel only gives you a Merlin oracle, not a Get Out of Jail Free card.
 
This means that Coil's power necessarily simulates Dinah's. Invoking some physical process that is exploited to make the computation easier (or even trivial) only pushes the brunt of the work over to an oracle. It doesn't make the problem go away or be any less problematic. Invoking time travel only gives you a Merlin oracle, not a Get Out of Jail Free card.
The shards can and do communicate with each other(especially when Triggering, but also with Trump stuff), but intersecting precognition gives him difficulty because remember what Dinah said whenever Coil uses her power while using his power?
"The numbers change"

Coil was acting on bad data because he was using his power to get additional questions per day out of Dinah. So he dug himself into a hole, because either his alternate route, or the real Dinah is giving bad data because the information is changing the future.

It's also implicit that there are different routes to seeing the future used by the shards. The power consumption varies. Path to Victory is apparently a near absolute peek ahead and back seek, but it consumes massive amounts of energy, even from Scion. Future modeling, mining parallel timelines for data, alternative information acquisition, polling minds/shards, etc, get used in a mix of combinations
 
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Isn't there a bigger problem here in that you've got multiple precogs who don't operate in the same way walking around, leaking information like crazy, somehow not crashing each other's powers in a von Neumann catastrophe clusterfuck?

Edit: Heh. Ninja'd.
 
I don't have the quote on hand at the moment, but the main thrust of my point is true regardless of whether the shards are CTC computers or Turing machines, as the halting problem applies to every machine in the arithmetical hierarchy, both Turing and oracle. It still falls apart because Coil's power doesn't actually spin off a new universe to query Dinah in:
He said that the power didn't create a new universe, not that it didn't take advantage of how a new universe is created for every quantum event, including decisions. So precog in real time, looking "sideways" in the timestream at what might've been instead of "forwards" at what will be.
 
The shards can and do communicate with each other(especially when Triggering, but also with Trump stuff), but intersecting precognition gives him difficulty because remember what Dinah said whenever Coil uses her power while using his power?
"The numbers change"
Oh, come on! You aren't even reading what I wrote!

But there's a problem here. Coil can perfectly predict the answers Dinah will give, in blatant violation of the halting problem, which states that no computer of equivalent mathematical complexity can determine the answer to an algorithm faster than running it, and this is true for the entire arithmetical hierarchy. The only side effect is that Dinah's numbers change, meaning that her shard is capable of predicting the actions of an actor that has full access to an even more powerful computer!
You're citing exactly the problem I identified as if it's a goddamn explanation!

It's also implicit that there are different routes to seeing the future used by the shards. The power consumption varies. Path to Victory is apparently a near absolute peek ahead and back seek, but it consumes massive amounts of energy, even from Scion. Future modeling, mining parallel timelines for data, alternative information acquisition, polling minds/shards, etc, get used in a mix of combinations
Contessa and Dinah are specifically two of the most powerful precogs out there, and Deutsch's prescription of the quantum mechanics of time travel shows that a Merlin oracle (Contessa) is equivalent in power to searching the multiverse for the answer (Dinah). Other, lesser forms of precognition can exist without making the issue any less of a problem. Coil's power is explicitly more powerful than the multiverse in spite of being contained in the multiverse. By the halting problem, this leads to contradiction.

He said that the power didn't create a new universe, not that it didn't take advantage of how a new universe is created for every quantum event, including decisions. So precog in real time, looking "sideways" in the timestream at what might've been instead of "forwards" at what will be.
One, in the many-worlds interpretation, every choice (and indeed, every quantum decoherence) leads to splitting the universe into one for each choice. Tagging a choice and viewing the "other" universe (a meaningless distinction) is exactly creating a universe for the choice. Two, Wildbow explicitly calls it "purely thought based." I'm really not sure how you think "purely thought-based precog in real time" is the same as "splits the universe based on a choice, watches both sides, and then completely arbitrarily declares one to be the 'real' one."
 
The thing is though, the shards are actively cooperating with each other. The most reasonable explanation therefore, is that Coil's shard pings Dinah's shard whenever it needs a prediction for one of Coil's alternate timelines.
Why would precog powers cooperate when literally no other power does this? Doubly so when the whole goddamn point was pitting powers against each other in competition.

Also, Coil and Dinah's powers come from two different Entities, making your claim even more implausible. I'm pretty sure Coil's power can also perfectly predict Contessa, in spite of her power being from a third Entity that had only brief contact.
 
Thinking seriously about precog implications makes me prefer to use Coil-as-timelines.

Thinking seriously about Doormaker and other multi-world gateways (like the one in Madison) makes me prefer to use Coil-as-precog.

In summation: Coil is a pain in the ass, do what Wildbow did and strenuously avoid having Coil encounter anything "interesting".
 
One, in the many-worlds interpretation, every choice (and indeed, every quantum decoherence) leads to splitting the universe into one for each choice. Tagging a choice and viewing the "other" universe (a meaningless distinction) is exactly creating a universe for the choice. Two, Wildbow explicitly calls it "purely thought based." I'm really not sure how you think "purely thought-based precog in real time" is the same as "splits the universe based on a choice, watches both sides, and then completely arbitrarily declares one to be the 'real' one."
First, he doesn't create a universe any more than you deciding to have ham on your cheese sandwich instead of beef creates a universe. He just forms a connection to an alternate him that made a different decision, then breaks the connection when he decides which 'verse he wants. The "purely thought based" power is the mental link between the two Coils. He doesn't declare one to be the "real" one, he just thinks he does. The other Coil is likely left confused and horrified as he realizes he misunderstood his power all along.

Second, creating an exact simulation of a universe is practically the same thing as creating a universe. You still have people walking around, still have atoms and quantum foam, the only difference that there's an "off" button. So your interpretation is closer to actually creating universes.
 
Thinking seriously about precog implications makes me prefer to use Coil-as-timelines.

Thinking seriously about Doormaker and other multi-world gateways (like the one in Madison) makes me prefer to use Coil-as-precog.

In summation: Coil is a pain in the ass, do what Wildbow did and strenuously avoid having Coil encounter anything "interesting".

Revlid said:
Worm posits a universe of many realities, but introduces an increasingly high energy barrier to reaching those realities as they get closer your own - hence why Khepri could not pop next door to pick up a few dozen identical twins who made decisions like wearing different shoes to the Slaughterhouse 9 fight. Thirty years worth of differences seems to be the approximate minimum amount at which it's actually feasible to access another reality, and even then, doing so too often exhausted the power supply of a shard, the only time we've ever seen that happen.

With this in mind, I rather assumed that Coil's power was so limited - only one "fork" at a time, progresses in real-time, no ongoing communication between forks, provides no peripheral benefits, etc - because it was actually extremely high-cost and involved for the shard. I assumed it was a network permitting the transfer of information between Coil's shard and every other possible iteration of Coil's shard, activated by use and directed by his decisions. When Coil A split himself into Coil A1 and Coil A2, what he was actually doing was transferring information between himself - Coil A - and Coil B, a Coil in another reality who had, at that exact moment, chosen to make the same split into Coil B1 and Coil B2, with the decisions reversed. Should Coil A (Coil A1/Coil B2) choose to "collapse the timeline" and proceed on his own, he's actually severing that connection. Even when "our" Coil died, there were still an infinite number of other Coils out there, ones who'd split off earlier and were still briefly connecting to each other in the quantum bullshit equivalent of Liking someone's Facebook page. Having this be the case also explains Coil's ability to collapse timelines in an unbiased fashion, a "meta-Coil" who is aware of what is going on between connections at all times but does not or cannot share that information - it's his passenger, which we know to be able to guide its host's power-usage in this fashion.

Wildbow making it into a "precog" power - a completely accurate simulation, a sort of multiversal Laplace's demon - is much less satisfying, and doesn't actually seem to allow the power to work as described. For it to work as we perceive it working, both in Coil's interlude and outside of it, his power would need to create two totally perfect copies of the entire multiverse, play out the differences between them based on his decisions up until the point where he chooses to collapse one of them, and then subconsciously guide him down the non-collapsed timeline until the moment of collapse, at which point (and only at which point) it dumps all the sensory information from the collapsed simulation into his head. This is pretty fucking absurd, even before you get into questions or problems like his ability to predict/model unpredictable things (Leviathan, for one) or for his power to apparently mimic every single other information-granting power out there as part of its modelling.

Coil's power made a lot more sense (and was, therefore, cooler) before the multiverse became a big central plot point.
A LOT OF THINGS DID, FRANKLY
 
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First, he doesn't create a universe any more than you deciding to have ham on your cheese sandwich instead of beef creates a universe.
EXCEPT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS, FULL STOP.

Second, creating an exact simulation of a universe is practically the same thing as creating a universe. You still have people walking around, still have atoms and quantum foam, the only difference that there's an "off" button. So your interpretation is closer to actually creating universes.
Yes, that's why "purely thought based precognition" is absurd. What you're talking about is what happens when you actually respect undecidability instead of failing to understand its implications like Wildbow.
 
"Agree to disagree" when used in such a pathetic, debate-ending way is nothing less than the mewling complaints of someone who doesn't like the way that the argument is going. It's not even cute. It's simply an attempt to shut down a fairly well-reasoned civil debate between several participants, who were mostly posting paragraphs of reasoned argument, with a dull, meaningless, thoughtless one line.

It's especially bad when someone like @Amorous Intent brings out a point which brings into question all of Worms's claims to having sci-fi as more than a mere secondary aesthetic, and the best you can manage is "Let's agree to disagree". Do you also pull that out when the Flat Earth Society comes to town? "Let's agree to disagree" is a transparent disengagement attempt - except you weren't even engaged. So you just strolled into the thread and decided the best thing to do was to try to shut down the conversation, which was relatively on topic and at least somewhat interesting.

Interesting? To you maybe, but I found it boring. As I already said, a lot of the same points were being made over and over and over again, and nobody was making headway against anybody else. I don't find that interesting, I find it infuriating.

As you say, I have not contributed to, nor have I so much as voiced opinion on, the issue at hand, so your first point about how pathetic I was for using the phrase "agree to disagree" in the manner I did doesn't even matter.

As for the Flat Earth Society, yes I let them keep their views. It's no skin off my back what they believe.
 
Uh, no. Just because you have a snappy image to throw at me does not make the statement that shards don't cooperate make sense.


Shards cooperate everytime someone second triggers for one. But I'm sure you want actual powers that do that, so there's also:
  • Jack Slash's shard, which very specifically gets information from other shards on their connected parahumans.
  • Grue's shard, which when he second triggered let him borrow the powers of other shards.
  • Hatchetface, who prevented powers from being used around him- which only makes sense if the other shards cooperate.
  • Mantellum, same principal as Hatchetface, who could even effect Contessa.
And I'm sure many others that I could find if I bothered to take the time.

Now, I suppose the argument could be made that perhaps those shards are actively stealing information, or hampering the other shards in some way, but Occam's razor applies here- we know shards cooperate when they ping each other during second triggers. Given that, why would the shards suddenly not cooperate when they're actually acting out the powers? Further, we know that some shards are more powerful and have more importance than others- if the shards made the above examples happen by one shard attacking another, than obviously the more powerful shards should be able to ignore the weaker ones. but that never happens. We have at least two examples of this in fact- Grue used his power on Eidolon once and did not have his power not work; Grue was just annoyed that Eidolon left his power's AoE very quickly, and Mantellum's power working on Contessa. And Taylor's shard for that matter, which we also know to be one of the very important ones.
 
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Interesting? To you maybe, but I found it boring. As I already said, a lot of the same points were being made over and over and over again, and nobody was making headway against anybody else. I don't find that interesting, I find it infuriating.
However, you see, this is not your thread; it is Earth Scorpion's. As such, it ultimately falls down to him (and the site rules) in deciding what people may talk about in the thread. (Of course, a moderator may disagree with me- being as I have participated in the thread now, I can no longer act as a moderator here.)

As the argument is relevant to the thread's topic (being a discussion about Worm mechanics in a Worm crossover), frankly it's quite fine for people to continue to have it. Your opinion of the argument is irrelevant.

However, this in turn is now a meta argument about an argument, and as such has no place in this thread. As such, any further debate on what type of discussion should be allowed in somebody else's story thread should be taken to PM, so... PM me if you really want to, I guess?
 
I like the tinkertech/tinkerfab concept and I think it can be applied to the canon Worm which is WOG a materialist setting without a supernatural (albeit as soft as any superhero universe with the typical compressed/inconsistent sense of scale and effects that are provably impossible (see the above analysis of clashing precogs - not that I can follow it)). No one in story seems to make the distinction but it works.

Tinkerfab would be devices that work in and of themselves (including by unknown principles in in a superhero story so still plenty of room for bullshit!) Tinkertech relies for some of it's effect on calling for assistance from a shard which by definition can still only do possible things but is far larger, more powerful and more sophisticated than the object overtly causing the effect which therefore cannot be reproduced by merely reproducing the object. The shard could empower a properly copied object depending on how that particular Tinker's power is set up but it need not as it has other inputs than the object itself with which to determine its response, in particular its link to the Tinker's brain so it knows if the item was built by its host.

As an analogy, Tinkerfab is like a database you can run on your own PC and tinkertech is a bulletin board where you need to be connected to a server via the internet to to use (and only a registered user can post.)

It is hard for characters in Worm to work out. Tinkerfab is still made by tinkers who are usually not engineers doing careful documentation, the principles may be genuinely new, it's black box by entity design and the production may require tinkertech tools/ power use. Meanwhile some shards may make copies of their tinkertech work (some made by anyone, others only if made by other tinkers) just to confuse things.

Some things we can be pretty sure are Tinkertech: eg. Lab Rat's potions which cause the human body change on a timescale that is simply beyond it and the changes reverse afterwards - it has to be a "target Bitch type power here" signal rather than a true teratogen.
 
Vague idea on the previous chapter:

Jack Slash's ability granted by the broadcast shard to essentially dissect and redirect the motivations of parahumans or people has been identified, if only by its effects. This has lead to the authorities killing off people who have met him. He doesn't actually have a master power or anything, he can just convince people with really really compelling arguments and information that their entire worldview is wrong and that everyone needs to die. And since its just convincing rhetoric, they can pass it on to other people. This would essentially create an 'information plague', where knowledge was a virus.

Or something like that. Obviously we don't have much information on the subject yet, but that's what I'm imagining they were talking about. They may just be trying to cover up inconvenient truths, because this seems like the sort of setting in which the government could actually be evil.
 
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...Personally, I've always liked to think that the shard Abbadon gave away that killed Eden was the one Coil got, and not PTV. If you set Coil's power higher by pumping in more energy from an entire entity instead of a single shard, you can justify it fully simulating multiple extra timelines faster than realtime, which means it can substitute for the creativity of other races the cycle is for, do it better by giving the most creative people different powers in different timelines, and if you're too busy powering and paying attention to it, you may not realize that you're running out of time to turn the danger sense and piloting shards back on with power you would have to take away from the simulation shard.

Also, this justifies it as a more computationally powerful shard than PTV and Dinah, so it can simulate them accurately, and then the numbers change as Dinah's shard struggles to calculate the changes after it is turned off.
 
Uh, no. Just because you have a snappy image to throw at me does not make the statement that shards don't cooperate make sense.


I give effort when people actually provide arguments, not just repeat arguments that have already failed virtually verbatim.

Shards cooperate everytime someone second triggers for one. But I'm sure you want actual powers that do that, so there's also:
  • Jack Slash's shard, which very specifically gets information from other shards on their connected parahumans.
  • Grue's shard, which when he second triggered let him borrow the powers of other shards.
  • Hatchetface, who prevented powers from being used around him- which only makes sense if the other shards cooperate.
  • Mantellum, same principal as Hatchetface, who could even effect Contessa.
And I'm sure many others that I could find if I bothered to take the time.
Jack's power specifically has higher privileges than other shards, and that's still limited to basic information on what the shard does. Similarly, Khepri's power has full admin privileges. Grue's power works to test adaptability, copying powers based on the same information Jack's shard gets. Hatchetface and Mantellum make just as much sense as suppressing the connection between host and shard.

None of these are "Use your power for me so I can pretend I actually do something."

Now, I suppose the argument could be made that perhaps those shards are actively stealing information, or hampering the other shards in some way, but Occam's razor applies here- we know shards cooperate when they ping each other during second triggers. Given that, why would the shards suddenly not cooperate when they're actually acting out the powers? Further, we know that some shards are more powerful and have more importance than others- if the shards made the above examples happen by one shard attacking another, than obviously the more powerful shards should be able to ignore the weaker ones. but that never happens. We have at least two examples of this in fact- Grue used his power on Eidolon once and did not have his power not work; Grue was just annoyed that Eidolon left his power's AoE very quickly, and Mantellum's power working on Contessa. And Taylor's shard for that matter, which we also know to be one of the very important ones.
We know shards cooperate under certain conditions. Those conditions are breeding. We also know the shards compete to determine the best powers. What you still haven't done is justify why shards would cooperate to fill in holes in the powers themselves, as they must for Coil's precog to be a collaborative endeavor. Your proposal sabotages any real test of the power, cribbing off of other, more powerful shards to give the illusion its power actually works when it doesn't. Congratulations, you just patched a single hole in the thin veneer of science that Worm covers itself in, at the low, low cost of utterly destroying the very premise that the setting runs on.

1. Chill
2. No his "power" doesn't create new universes, unless the ability to make decisions is somehow a superpower. Protip: if everyone can do it, it doesn't count as a superpower. His "power" just takes advantage of an already existing Phenomena.
TIL that flight isn't a superpower because birds and planes do it. Coil's (supposed) power is a power because it lets him exploit the creation of universes by his actions. It's still creating the universe to exploit, and that's what Wildbow ruled out.

...Personally, I've always liked to think that the shard Abbadon gave away that killed Eden was the one Coil got, and not PTV. If you set Coil's power higher by pumping in more energy from an entire entity instead of a single shard, you can justify it fully simulating multiple extra timelines faster than realtime, which means it can substitute for the creativity of other races the cycle is for, do it better by giving the most creative people different powers in different timelines, and if you're too busy powering and paying attention to it, you may not realize that you're running out of time to turn the danger sense and piloting shards back on with power you would have to take away from the simulation shard.

Also, this justifies it as a more computationally powerful shard than PTV and Dinah, so it can simulate them accurately, and then the numbers change as Dinah's shard struggles to calculate the changes after it is turned off.
No, it doesn't. When I talked about more powerful computers or equivalence, I'm talking about the mathematical definition--i.e., the Turing degree. To mathematicians, the 30 cent calculator, Watson, and your brain all have the same amount of power, because they're Turing equivalent and therefore of the same order. Dinah and Contessa's powers fully exploit the multiverse. Ergo, Coil's power must be larger than the multiverse (more memory and computational power in the sense you mean), or have a higher Turing degree than the multiverse. Since Coil's power necessarily exists within the multiverse, it leads to contradiction.
 
IMHO Jack's power can do its thing without any "higher priority" scheme in place. He's got the Communications shard, which includes both the broadcast and reception + interpretation of energy. The broadcasting is his kinetic knife thing and his cape-charisma thing, the reception + communication is his power-dodging thing.

In canon, Coil interacts with a precog often, and has fantastic synergy with her. He does not interact with world-jumping gateway powers. He is not shown to have any particular weakness to the usual precog blockers (e.g. Endbringers). So if you're keeping all of those bits of canon -- who he interacts with, and who he never interacts with -- then using Coil-as-timelines makes a lot more sense than Coil-as-precog.

Coil-as-timelines doesn't even require the creation of a universe: just read/write access to a different Earth. When Coil uses his power, that Earth gets overwritten. When Coil picks a timeline, Earth Bet either gets kept, or a region gets a bulk-copy overwrite.

Labyrinth seems to use a similar mechanism in that she seems to "design" various playground Earths and then temporarily overwrite portions of Earth Bet with one of those playgrounds. Overwriting the surface of a planet would seem to be less energy intensive than simulating the entire multiverse.

In this third case (Coil-as-overwrite) his power would still need some tricky way to deal with dimensional portals.
 
Hi EarthScorpion, just finished your story. I really enjoyed your world building. I'm looking forward to reading more. :)

One speculation on the world building here.
Apparently there is a big depression going on with a lot of unemployment. Which is actually a bit strange. If lots of stuff gets regularly destroyed (Endbringers, parahuman conflict, etc.), wealth should fall, yes. But employment should rise. It's like a constant post-war boom.
Now of course a modern economy can be badly mismanaged by the government and central bank. We also know that the government here employs thinkers in important roles. So shouldn't they be better than their real-life counterparts in preventing such an economic disaster? We only had a Great Recession after all and not a 2nd Great Depression.
The reason this might be happening, is that The Conspiracy (or one of the many conspiracies) is maintaining these poor economic conditions on purpose for whatever reason. Actively preventing any kind of recovery. Maybe it's Cauldron trying to encourage more Trigger Events? Radicalizing the electorate to grant the government more and more power? Some other reason?

Or is the depressing situation just part of the standard setting and I should just not think so hard about it?
 
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