An Idiot's Guide to the Underworld [Worm/Hades]
- Thread starter OxfordOctopus
- Start date
- Crossover
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
No, it is being downgraded from 'person' to 'property'.
Vaalintine
Wild Wondorous Wolfalope
Originally I was just noting that Hades was giving Taylor a reason to reject everything (not that she needs one for it to be justified), but now I'm wondering just what the point of the story even IS. Hades making her do "her job" doesn't even make sense when he is continually calling his son a failure when he tasks him with things Hades has refused to even teach him how to do. If Hades is in the right then it stands that the story and game shouldn't even happen, that both Zagreus and Taylor should just give up. And that just doesn't make sense given how the narrative of both the game and what you've written so far state the opposite.
Great Greedy Guts
Ceterum censeo Vigilam esse delendam.
Neruz, uh, isn't the author. The degree to which any of us talking about this are right is unknown, (though my opinion falls roughly into "Hades isn't right about a lot of things, but also comparing this situation to slavery seems a tad premature") but none of it should be taken as necessarily true given the whole... not being the author thing.
Blinktwice13
Underpaid Struggle Bus Attendant
- Location
- Eastern US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So not to speak on Oxford's behalf, but it seems like a character exploration story. The plot is secondary to character growth based on interactions. What if Taylor had a semi-heathy support system in a Post GM world? Because Lisa cared about her, but we can't call that healthy. The Wards weren't exactly family either. And Danny... well, wrong thread.
Nyx is actually a really good mom, and Achilles is a hell of a father figure now that he's had a few decades to cool his heels. They're the main reason Zag came out as good as he did.
Meg is actually considerate to other members of the house (she and Zag have History and that's the reason for how bad off they start). She looks out for Dusa as best she can - heck, a common sight is those two having Girl's Night. Speaking of, Dusa is as sweet as advertised, if a little neurotic.
Hypnos is goofy but nice enough, even if he's scatterbrained.
Hades is literally the only antagonistic force in the house. It's a great place for someone like Taylor to step into and gradually learn to trust and rely on others - undoing the damage Emma, herself, her shard, and Earth Bet in general did.
Sure there's a little power wank, but that's the nature of Worm and Roguelikes.
Note: these are just my observations. Oxford might have an entirely different plot lined up, and so far it's a wonderful story I hope to read more of.
Nyx is actually a really good mom, and Achilles is a hell of a father figure now that he's had a few decades to cool his heels. They're the main reason Zag came out as good as he did.
Meg is actually considerate to other members of the house (she and Zag have History and that's the reason for how bad off they start). She looks out for Dusa as best she can - heck, a common sight is those two having Girl's Night. Speaking of, Dusa is as sweet as advertised, if a little neurotic.
Hypnos is goofy but nice enough, even if he's scatterbrained.
Hades is literally the only antagonistic force in the house. It's a great place for someone like Taylor to step into and gradually learn to trust and rely on others - undoing the damage Emma, herself, her shard, and Earth Bet in general did.
Sure there's a little power wank, but that's the nature of Worm and Roguelikes.
Note: these are just my observations. Oxford might have an entirely different plot lined up, and so far it's a wonderful story I hope to read more of.
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It's notable that there aren't really any bad guys in Hades, everyone is trying to do their best for the sake of others except for Zagreus who is attempting self-actualization.
Even Hades' himself does what he does because of love and trying to be a responsible God of the Dead.
I think that's something Taylor will struggle with recognising and accepting, she's so used to defining herself and the world by conflict and opposition.
Even Hades' himself does what he does because of love and trying to be a responsible God of the Dead.
I think that's something Taylor will struggle with recognising and accepting, she's so used to defining herself and the world by conflict and opposition.
I disagree, she is not Taylor the mortal anymore, she doesn't have blood in her veins, she is now an expression of an aspect of reality.
And I expect its something rather out of any real control, I doubt a mortal name can properly function for a god.
jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
- Location
- Canada
Also in a rather blunt and harsh way, Hades is trying to push Taylor into breaking from her past/baggage.
She isn't Taylor the mortal/Shard host any more and needs to accept that. She is a deity now (no getting around it) and such a being choosing to be in denial about their very nature/existence is probably not a good thing for themselves and everyone in the vicinity. The problem is that A: Hades is naturally very blunt, B: is already annoyed in general, and C: is completely and utterly out of ****s to give regarding Taylor's opinion on this matter. He's already got the parchment-work apocalyse on his hands combined with his son rampaging through the Underworld. He is not interested in dealing with/babysitting a semi-insane godling that doesn't seem to comprehend basic facts of reality.
Also, other characters (Zag and Skelly to name two) find the name 'Taylor' to be rather weird. Makes sense considering their base language (and thus 'normal' titles and names) is rather different than 21st century American English. So there is the 'foreign name not meshing' aspect.
In a few decades/centuries. Depends on how hard it is to chip through Taylor's shell.
Worm. One of the few settings where sending the main character to the Underworld has the potential to make her a happier, better adjusted person.
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Epsilon Rose
The King of Unrest
The name thing's come up a few times and it seems like a mischaracterization of what's happening. Hades told her that the name she wanted to be known by sounds ridiculous for someone in her position, so she needs to choose a new one, as a matter of decorum. However, he is not actively imposing a name on her and would be perfectly happy to accept one of her other names or anything appropriate sounding she comes up with on her own.
From his position, it's a bit like someone unexpectedly being crowed a prince and appointed as his ward and then telling him they want to be known as Prince Fluffernuffernuff. No one is going to take that seriously as a royal title and it's going to make the both of them look bad. They can pick a new name, but it needs to be something that actually fits their new role. That leaves quite a bit of room for expressing their own identity.
All of that is compounded by the fact that Hades lacks a point of reference for where Taylor is coming from. The mortal world he's used to is perfectly aware of the existence of Deities. What's more, the idea of random people posing as gods and kidnapping potentially powerful teenagers with the intent of brainwashing them into also believing they're gods sounds preposterous. First off, the actual gods would inevitably find out about them and kindly impress upon the fools the difference between a god and a mortal. More importantly, powers simply don't work like that in the world Hades is familiar with.
In addition to being annoying, all of Taylor's paranoia comes off as really weird and completely unfounded. She isn't someone ranting about CIA funded, black-op, conspiracies; she's ranting about being a brain in a jar.
Of course, the reverse is true for Taylor. She considers master/stranger protocols standard, and she's dealt with the exact type of psycotic group Hades and Co look like. Any sane person would be worried. Espesially when they come from a world without magic or gods and where everyone claiming a connection to one or the other is some brand of insane, with people claiming to be the later favoring the highly destructive brands of insanity.
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Lagoon12002
How far have I fell down into this deep deep sea
And yet, the names she currently 'owns' have history. Problematic history, a different aspect of what Taylor IS. To define herself with any one of those names, who belong to a mortal, a villain, a hero and a monster, it would change who she is. Ares becomes Mars. Herakles becomes Hercules. History distorts, and belief changes.
To take the name Skitter, she would tie herself to filth and pests, a worm that stands against heroes, a tyrant surrounded in a black cloud; a mantle of plague, an ever-looming shadow that sees all within her domain. This could lead to the Saytr goddess thing...
To take the name Weaver, she would tie herself to the concept of heroics and rebellion. And heroics... do not work out well in Ancient Greece. Rebellion, yes, that worked plenty for the Olympians. But heroics? No.
And Khepri... The concept of a 'titan', no matter what it's origin, would be conceptually strong in Aincent Greece. In Tarturus, the tomb and eternal prison of the 'dead' Titans, a 'titan' would be significantly boosted conceptually, and may gain some sort of connection with them. Add in the god-slaying aspect... A baby titan alone seems like one of those things where Hades brushes off the Titan-slaying gear and chokes the threat in the crib.
Taylor Hebert is the starting point. The origin of this legend. The face behind the mask. A true name of immense conceptual weight.
She may don a new mask, take up a new name, one of a newborn goddess in the land of the dead. But Taylor Hebert is still important.
Epsilon Rose
The King of Unrest
Ooh. I really like your analysis.
Hades might want to do that, but he's already offered her hospitality, so he's stuck until she violates it herself. Honestly, if she really wants to get under his skin in a way he can't respond to, taking up the mantle of Kephri is probably her best bet.
Hades might want to do that, but he's already offered her hospitality, so he's stuck until she violates it herself. Honestly, if she really wants to get under his skin in a way he can't respond to, taking up the mantle of Kephri is probably her best bet.
Of course, part and parcel of Taylor being her true name is that you are not supposed to actually use your true name on a regular basis. Part of its power is that it's secret and hidden, protected by your other names. If that holds true for Taylor, then Hades advice is quite good: she really does need to choose a new name that others can know her by.
Lagoon12002
How far have I fell down into this deep deep sea
Thanks!
Very true. I admit, I didn't think of the Skulduggery Pleasant angle when I wrote my mini-essay, but it really does fit in quite well.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
No, they want her to accept her new identity as a goddess and stop pretending to be the mortal human that she used to be, and no longer is. Taylor Hebert is the name of the mortal who ascended to godhood, the name of the goddess is presently undecided.
In short:
This.
And this.
I don't think Hades is even aware that Taylor is from a different mortal world yet, so from his perspective she was a mortal that somehow did not know about the gods, which is completely ridiculous and makes no sense at all because everyone knows about the gods. From his perspective Taylor is literally impossibly ignorant and being totally absurd in her behaviour and attitude, and buried in work like he is Hades simply does not have the patience for another dumb rebellious teenager, especially one that isn't even his own child this time.
But as a grumpy groucho who is bad at communicating, none of this comes across to Taylor, and Taylor is too busy keeping all her cards close out of (justified) paranoia to explain anything to anyone, so both 'sides' are talking past each other and getting nowhere fast.
The other thing to keep in mind about Khepri (though it is by far the most appropriate 'established' name that Taylor could choose as her divine moniker) is that if the Greek Pantheon are extant, then other pantheons may also be extant. If the Egyptian Pantheon exists as well, then 'Khepri' is kind of taken and while it might take awhile for Ra to hear about the plagiarism, he would eventually and then the Egyptian gods would send someone to investigate, which could be problematic.
The big question regarding the name though is whether choosing a divine moniker will 'set' her powers in the theme of the name, or whether coming to terms with her new divinity will prompt an appropriately thematic name. (Or neither, and they are entirely unrelated, unlikely given the nature of divinity but not impossible.)
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Shinji117
Endless Troller
- Location
- Rokkenjima (Sydney)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There's relatively clear, if not direct "hey this other gods shows up onscreen", evidence that other pantheons are around to some degree or another: see the various divine-related 4th aspects like Enkidu's claws or Lucifer's laser. The story acts as if both Enkidu and Lucifer took place in the past, (with the hidden aspects being atemporal, what with Excalibur and the Green Dragon Blade being explicitly from the future) but both kinda-definitely require other pantheons to have been/be/will be around.
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TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
I mean, Taylor already has some symbols and themes. We just don't know what they mean or how they fit together yet.
Chess
Oh boy, here I go helping again!
- Location
- Washington state
- Pronouns
- Male pronouns
Also, if you make it to Hades with the claws, Hades says that Gilgamesh might be in Elysium.
Hades: Hrm. Provided he was flesh and blood at some point, then he resides within my realm. Presumably within Elysium somewhere, sadly bereft of his manticore claws, thanks to you.
Hades: Hrm. Provided he was flesh and blood at some point, then he resides within my realm. Presumably within Elysium somewhere, sadly bereft of his manticore claws, thanks to you.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
Hmm, those 4th aspect things imply some interesting possibilities, like the Underworld once being owned by Ereshkigal in the past if Gilgamesh is there.
I wonder if either gods change identities over time, or if the Titans fought the previous owners and took over. Maybe whenever they get bored enough Primordial Chaos spawns a new Pantheon to fight with the current one?
Such tantalizing lore hints.
I wonder if either gods change identities over time, or if the Titans fought the previous owners and took over. Maybe whenever they get bored enough Primordial Chaos spawns a new Pantheon to fight with the current one?
Such tantalizing lore hints.
So, Taylor knows about the story of Persephone, and she knows that the mortal lands are locked in winter, so she ought to be able to deduce that the Queen of Hades ought to be around here somewhere. (Since the bit about Persephone separating from Hades but not returning to Olympus didn't make it into the myths.)
When will Taylor go looking for her?
When will Taylor go looking for her?
That would depend on individual belief of whether there are different version of the underworld or there is just ONE very BIG one that all the pantheons share, but it is SO big that they don't really overlap at all.
Or... someone has to look after the dead for some reason. And supposedly Gods/Goddesses fade (or die/get killed) over time, so someone has to take over right? Still, since i never played the game itself despite know it exist (and having a pretty good general idea of what it's about... who wouldn't?), i can't say one way or another if some lore in there hinted one way or another.
Honestly, it probably isn't all that relevant? And for all of those thinking Taytay should keep her mortal name, i say... why not? So long as she takes up another title that Defines her as a Divine. She can stay Taytay all she wants, but she needs to define who she is as a Goddess. No getting around that, as some said.
jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
- Location
- Canada
It'll be interesting to see Taylor meet the rest of the underworld cast. I can see her triggering Tisiphone (Fury that punishes murderers) and Theseus....all he'll need to do is open his mouth and she'll want to kill him.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
She can bond with Zagreus about that! The moment Theseus opened his mouth Zag lost every ounce of respect he had for him.
Taylor: In my defence, it was a potentially evil baby.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
Given that Hades has explicitly forbidden anyone speaking of Persephone in his house to the point that Zag only found out about her because the Narrator accidentally spilled the beans, probably never; Zag is the only person who will talk about Persephone right now and will eagerly explain that the reason he's suicide-zerg-rushing the Underworld is so he can find her.
So Taylor would only not find out about Persephone not being around if she somehow never asked Zag in response to everyone else refusing to discuss the subject, and that is ignoring the likelihood of someone like Nyx taking her aside and explaining why not to talk about Persephone in response to the first time Taylor asks.
e: Incidentally, I wonder if Taylor can hear the Narrator too.
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jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
- Location
- Canada
Tisiphone: "MurderMurdeMurdMurMuMMurderer!"
-Tisiphone blitzes after Taylor-
Zagreus: "Not the best reasoning to use on her, Taylor."
Taylor: "HELP ME!"
-After the first fight and suiting up for another run-
Taylor: "Hey Zagreus, that river Lethe that runs through Elysium; how does it work?"
Zagreus: "The Lethe? Shades that drink from it get the memories of their past washed away for future reincarnation. Doesn't really do much to us gods but you don't want take a dip in it, why?"
Taylor: "I see. Does the water keep those properties after it's removed from the river?"
-Later in the Elysium Stadium-
Theseus: "Ha! See my friend Asterius? The foul monster has returned. And in a futile attempt to supplement his pathetic combat skills he has brought his ill-kempt slatter-"
-Large container of Lethe water smashes into his face, causing him to inhale some-
Theseus: 'cough-hack' "You dare you toss that in my noble countenance you foul....I....who..huh...
"Asterius: "While his words were uncalled for, using the waters of Lethe in such a manner in a fight is foul play young one.