An Analysis of Original Quests on SV (Draft, under discussion and revision)

That just means there are more sellouts :V

But seriously, as someone who basically writes weird ass vaguely literary fiction using other people's characters, I don't want to have to be a marketer instead of a writer. So I never write original shit (on SV). If I'm going to sell out, I want to get paid for it :V

I don't really think most of the stuff from the OP is very helpful. I just leave it up for context.
 
I'm pretty sure fanquests have pretty steep rates of attrition as well. Creative writing is tough in general, and most people have other priorities in their life that pull them away.

Fanquests have the benefit of a pre-existing fanbase that can keep the author's motivation up, but even so... A few dozen more voters in a quest at most doesn't really compare to 'crap, another late night (at work/studying/whatever), I'll just write tomorrow,' and a few days like that later you realize tomorrow is never coming.
 
It's not that big of a difference; original quests have lower longevity in that sense but this number could be disrupted by older original quests; it'd be hard to say how things have changed.
 
I don't really think most of the stuff from the OP is very helpful. I just leave it up for context.

Looking over the competition after getting into the quest racket recently, a lot of the bones of the OP still seem valid: Skinner Boxes, constant updates for minutia, IP scrubbing/heavy established style derivation, complex (or at least complex seeming) mechanical focus.

The thing is fanquests do these things too. :V
 
The problem is frankly a lot of this is endemic to most media. Being derivative is the basis of several genres.
 
The problem is frankly a lot of this is endemic to most media. Being derivative is the basis of several genres.
I'm still disappointed nobody has run with 'Dread Captain John Luck and his merry crew of pirates who are definitely not a fantasy ripoff of Star Trek,' after I pointed out how easy it was to take a well-written fanfic and convert it to an original work.

I mean, I certainly can't write it, I've never even watched Star Trek.
 
The problem is frankly a lot of this is endemic to most media. Being derivative is the basis of several genres.

And when derivative original work is competing directly with first order derivative work (fanfiction), then there's no points given for being original if it's more derivative than the fic, imo. I understand using tropes and story structure, but if I wanted to read Muv-Luv with a woobie or Harry Potter/Mahouka/LWA/The Magicians/Generic Isekai #35719 with the serial numbers filed off, I'd fucking read those works instead of the biters. If you're going to write original, fucking be original. Originality made Hedge Maze cool.

This is actually why I don't particularly like Worm; edgy, morally grey superheroes were played out in the 90s. The comics industry lampooned and pushed back against that mess while I was still in grade school. Kick-Ass and Soon, I Will Be Invincible do the first and second half better. And it still bites Evangelion for Cauldron (and the Endbringers, if you squint).

I would rather a writer tell a unique story with established properties than write hack work with their homegrown. I don't give a shit about your OCs, and your writing probably isn't good enough to make me care if you need to rely on quest gimmicks for Likes. I personally find fishing for Likes distasteful, but I've never been a very likable person :V

Now the quality pure original quest is a Holy Grail that very few have reached (OP being one of them), but there's always reading literary fiction (nobody reads literary fiction). :V
 
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And when derivative original work is competing directly with first order derivative work (fanfiction), then there's no points given for being original if it's more derivative than the fic, imo. I understand using tropes and story structure, but if I wanted to read Muv-Luv with a woobie or Harry Potter/Mahouka/LWA/The Magicians/Generic Isekai #35719 with the serial numbers filed off, I'd fucking read those works instead of the biters. If you're going to write original, fucking be original. Originality made Hedge Maze cool.

This is actually why I don't particularly like Worm; edgy, morally grey superheroes were played out in the 90s. The comics industry lampooned and pushed back against that mess while I was still in grade school. Kick-Ass and Soon, I Will Be Invincible do the first and second half better. And it still bites Evangelion for Cauldron (and the Endbringers, if you squint).

I would rather a writer tell a unique story with established properties than write hack work with their homegrown. I don't give a shit about your OCs, and your writing probably isn't good enough to make me care if you need to rely on quest gimmicks for Likes. I personally find fishing for Likes distasteful, but I've never been a very likable person :V

Now the quality pure original quest is a Holy Grail that very few have reached (OP being one of them), but there's always reading literary fiction (nobody reads literary fiction). :V
I feel like in today's society it's sort of impossible to have an idea that is completely original.
While writing my old (and now dead quest) TESMD(RDQ) I did my best to make sure it was as original and from my own mind as I could make it. And on quite a few occasions I got someone accusing me of ripping off Bleach or some other work. A couple of which I'd never even heard of.
I wrote TESMD(RDQ) for about a year and a half, maybe even a bit more. It went past a hundred pages. There were plenty of occasions for people to level accusations.
And uh, they did. A lot.

And they were wrong. So just, I feel like maybe some slack could be cut here? Maybe?
 
I feel like in today's society it's sort of impossible to have an idea that is completely original.
While writing my old (and now dead quest) TESMD(RDQ) I did my best to make sure it was as original and from my own mind as I could make it. And on quite a few occasions I got someone accusing me of ripping off Bleach or some other work. A couple of which I'd never even heard of.
I wrote TESMD(RDQ) for about a year and a half, maybe even a bit more. It went past a hundred pages. There were plenty of occasions for people to level accusations.
And uh, they did. A lot.

And they were wrong. So just, I feel like maybe some slack could be cut here? Maybe?
I also am uncomfortable with the condemnation of unoriginality. I think an important part of writing is that you are engaging with culture, and culture is basically made up of all the ideas that have already been thought of. To participate in a conversation, you naturally will need to echo back some of the words already being used in that conversation. (The 'words' of a story being things like tropes, plot points, character archetypes...) I think it's both normal and useful to encounter an existing story and want to do your own version where 90% is the same but the 10% that's different is the point you want to make to your audience, or your proposed fix of something you felt was wrong or misfocused about the original. Encountering a piece of writing that's really different from anything else you've read is disorienting, which is one of the main reasons postmodern fiction isn't popular.
 
Honestly, if you take just about any story and break it down, it comes to the most basic parts. You, of course, learn this in Creative Writing classes. You follow a person through some sort of conflict, the conflict reaches a high point, shit gets solved one way or another. And to make a series, you just make it take longer to get to the big bad, with lots of other conflicts popping up.

And the fact is...we've been writing, or even just making, stories for thousands of years. Even if one were to say, write a character that could become a god by turning trash into trees...it's been done before. Literally. It's an anime.

Lord of the rings, if I remember right, was made because the author had an issue with one of shakespear's plays.

And the movie Avatar is very similar in story to Dances with Wolves, but I enjoy both of them very much for their own reasons.

What ticks me off are a whole slew of video games that are starting to mash into each other and look the same, because they haven't been around nearly long enough to have the same problem, in my opinion...and that's related because of the usage of story and mechanics, but I wont go any further with it.
 
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I would rather a writer tell a unique story with established properties than write hack work with their homegrown. I don't give a shit about your OCs, and your writing probably isn't good enough to make me care if you need to rely on quest gimmicks for Likes. I personally find fishing for Likes distasteful, but I've never been a very likable person :V
*Sobs*

All right, I admit it: I'm a whore for likes! I need constant positive reinforcement. I'm as neurotic as a sack full of cats! Is that what you wanted me to say, you… you unlikable person?! :cry:

[/please don't take this seriously]

Seriously though, I'm ashamed that when I first read this thread I took it very much to heart. I was really enjoying writing A Hedge Maze Is You and wanted to share it with more people. I thought that a skinner box was something I needed to have. I was wrong and I regret it.

Anyway, I'm in the mood to do some writing, but both of my quests are up to date. What should I do? Well, I could start drafting or planning stuff that'll come up later on, but I'm much too impatient to bother with that. Instead, maybe I'll take a look at some other people's quests I've been meaning to start reading...

Questionably Soteriological, here I come!
EDIT: Well, I tried it. It's quite amusing, but I've decided it's not really for me. I lack the patience. I'll try something else.

EDIT: Uh, guys, why am I getting *hugs* for this post? I meant it as a joke... Don't pity me, damn it! I could really go for some funnies... :p
 
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Re: Originality. I think it is a dire mistake to think trying to derive nothing from existing fiction is the goal or particularly beneficial. Rather, good original works tend to draw inspiration from so many disparate sources even down to a single character having multiple inspirations, that it is difficult, if not impossible, to pick out all the individual inspirations.

Even a lot of the great stories people pick out for 'actually original'... Well, Lord of the Rings, among other things, very obviously pulls from both Norse culture and mythology and has a great deal of elements very similar (almost certainly intentionally) Judeo-Christian theology, while for example Star Wars has, among other points, Vader in basically a Samurai mask while much of the force user stuff in general is drawing from eastern spiritual traditions and fighting styles.

Protip: Deriving from real world things is not, somehow, not derivative.

In general, it's not that you should avoid being derivative, I'd say... It's that you should avoid being merely derivative.

'It's basically Jedi' is not really bringing anything new to the table, sure. 'it's basically Jedi riding dinosaurs and wielding guns' may or may not pan out well in practice, but you can't say Star Wars did it first...
 
@sunandshadow:

I feel like we've personally done this song and dance before, but you continue to conflate derivative and unoriginal. Very few works are completely original and without comparison; no popular work ever is. There is no sin in being unoriginal: a strong foundation is built on time tested ideas, concepts, characters and plots. Where the problem lies, and where you consistently miss the mark, is when an author does not take those foundations and create something unique with those tools, instead making a derivative work. When the author does the same thing everyone else does with the same tools, and does not show craft or nuance enough to make the work their own.

Wanting to "fix" fiction is a profoundly fanficcy desire. Wanting to make an ideological point out of an existing work is the domain of bad literary professors. Postmodern literature, in the sense you're probably using it here (dense, confusing and masturbatory) both is made for a specific audience and comes out of the same modernist impulse that got us the modern novel style. The postmodern ideas of exalting "low" art, playing with the reader/writer dynamic and playing with assumptions in a given work is kind of why we have contemporary fanfic as a thing.

@Sendicard:

As long as the material was used in a way that engendered a strong story and wasn't thrown in as "hey, this is [Thing] now love me," or "hey, this is totally not [Thing] with the serial numbers filed off," you did all I'd ask for.

@Terrabrand:

What you're saying is the idea behind the saying "Good artists copy, great artists steal." When you steal something, you make it yours. You steal from a bunch of places, throw it together and it presents as a show of personal style. Stealing from Star Wars, Space Dandy and Moll Flanders at the same time says more about the author and the work than just making a knockoff of a single listed work.
 
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@sunandshadow:

I feel like we've personally done this song and dance before, but you continue to conflate derivative and unoriginal. Very few works are completely original and without comparison; no popular work ever is. There is no sin in being unoriginal: a strong foundation is built on time tested ideas, concepts, characters and plots. Where the problem lies, and where you consistently miss the mark, is when an author does not take those foundations and create something unique with those tools, instead making a derivative work. When the author does the same thing everyone else does with the same tools, and does not show craft or nuance enough to make the work their own.

Wanting to "fix" fiction is a profoundly fanficcy desire. Wanting to make an ideological point out of an existing work is the domain of bad literary professors. Postmodern literature, in the sense you're probably using it here (dense, confusing and masturbatory) both is made for a specific audience and comes out of the same modernist impulse that got us the modern novel style. The postmodern ideas of exalting "low" art, playing with the reader/writer dynamic and playing with assumptions in a given work is kind of why we have contemporary fanfic as a thing.

@Sendicard:

As long as the material was used in a way that engendered a strong story and wasn't thrown in as "hey, this is [Thing] now love me," or "hey, this is totally not [Thing] with the serial numbers filed off," you did all I'd ask for.

@Terrabrand:

What you're saying is the idea behind the saying "Good artists copy, great artists steal." When you steal something, you make it yours. You steal from a bunch of places, throw it together and it presents as a show of personal style. Stealing from Star Wars, Space Dandy and Moll Flanders at the same time says more about the author and the work than just making a knockoff of a single listed work.
Okay that I can agree with. My apologies I may have taken your statements a bit too literally.
(Do people seriously do that? I get entire Quest posts that don't ever get likes despite multiple voters. People, like, ask for likes? That's a thing?)

(Edit: Closest thing I could ever see myself doing to that is if I caught a bunch of voters voting without actually reading the post, I might make a rule requiring they like the relevant posts to the vote before their vote can be counted. But even then I'd feel really sketchy about it. A brief summary in their own words would totally be accepted too.)
(Edit2: Actually a like wouldn't really solve that problem because they could just like it anyway XD
Probably solve that situation with a very brief summary of their thoughts and what happened)
 
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Okay that I can agree with. My apologies I may have taken your statements a bit too literally.
(Do people seriously do that? I get entire Quest posts that don't ever get likes despite multiple voters. People, like, ask for likes? That's a thing?)
When I'm struggling with stress and mental health issues and need a pick me up, I have a tendency to beg for likes.


Sorry.
 
Alright...so...how do you force a thing to happen if quest slowed down too much and has gotten boring? Random explosions come to mind....
 
While I won't deny that likes can be a motivational tool, I don't think it's typical to outright ask for likes.

It reminds me of the sort of numbers modification I used to see on FF.Net, where someone would go 'I will update as soon as I get XX likes' in a desperate bid to make their fics look more popular, but given there's not a 'Number of likes this story has gotten' feature on SV there's not a lot of incentive to puff up your numbers here.

Aside from the 'Notable Members' list I guess but that's not really directly relevant to story and writing ability in any way.
 
While I won't deny that likes can be a motivational tool, I don't think it's typical to outright ask for likes.

It reminds me of the sort of numbers modification I used to see on FF.Net, where someone would go 'I will update as soon as I get XX likes' in a desperate bid to make their fics look more popular, but given there's not a 'Number of likes this story has gotten' feature on SV there's not a lot of incentive to puff up your numbers here.

Aside from the 'Notable Members' list I guess but that's not really directly relevant to story and writing ability in any way.

On the other hand, I personally obsessively monitor likes in everything I do. Including Quests, since that sometimes tells you who is willing to read your Quest, but not vote, even though you need a damn tiebreaker.
 
@sunandshadow:

I feel like we've personally done this song and dance before, but you continue to conflate derivative and unoriginal. Very few works are completely original and without comparison; no popular work ever is. There is no sin in being unoriginal: a strong foundation is built on time tested ideas, concepts, characters and plots. Where the problem lies, and where you consistently miss the mark, is when an author does not take those foundations and create something unique with those tools, instead making a derivative work. When the author does the same thing everyone else does with the same tools, and does not show craft or nuance enough to make the work their own.

Wanting to "fix" fiction is a profoundly fanficcy desire. Wanting to make an ideological point out of an existing work is the domain of bad literary professors. Postmodern literature, in the sense you're probably using it here (dense, confusing and masturbatory) both is made for a specific audience and comes out of the same modernist impulse that got us the modern novel style. The postmodern ideas of exalting "low" art, playing with the reader/writer dynamic and playing with assumptions in a given work is kind of why we have contemporary fanfic as a thing.
We probably have had this conversation before. I honestly don't encounter derivative works where the author doesn't show enough nuance to make the work their own; I don't think it's a real problem, especially if you discount inexperienced teenagers who are still learning to write.

I also don't think that wanting to fix, improve, or twist an existing piece of fiction is exclusive to fanfiction. If you ask writers of original fiction, they will generally name several inspirations or influences for that piece. Writers of original fiction just combine more sources and mix the elements around more so it's hard for a reader to immediately spot what inspired what.

Basic example: I find One Piece quite frustrating because I really like the idea of a world made of islands and people who organize themselves into ship crews that are kind of like families, but I really don't like One Piece's whimsically nonsensical magical elements, character psychology, and the story's overall sense of humor. So what I want to do is build an original world which is directly inspired by One Piece, but 'fix' it by replacing the elements I don't like with ones I like better. I have no idea whether readers would think the result was derivative of One Piece or not, and I don't really have any control over what they think either. But since I can see my own creative process I know which elements were inspired by what.

Further, even if you want to call this a fanficcy process for creating original fiction, let's consider something like dragon rider stories. It's basically undeniable that Dragonlance and the Dragonriders of Pern are the ancestors of all modern dragonrider stories. But Eragon, even though I'm not that fond of it, is clearly not fanfiction, it's a normal piece of original fiction. And the same can be said for vampire stories - Buffy is clearly descended from Dracula,with some transformative steps inbetween because one writer after another thought "vampires are cool but they are used badly in this example, I can do something more interesting with them". If the change in worldbuilding, character, or plot needed to 'fix' whatever the author dislikes is a big enough change, then the result will automatically not be fanfiction.
 
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Alright...so...how do you force a thing to happen if quest slowed down too much and has gotten boring? Random explosions come to mind....

Quests, like pulps, require constant motion. Do something to change the situation and pull the story out of its rut.

Raymond Chandler said:
This was inevitable because the demand was for constant action and if you stopped to think you were lost. When in doubt have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand. This could get to be pretty silly but somehow it didn't seem to matter. A writer who is afraid to over-reach himself is as useless as a general who is afraid to be wrong.

E: Eragon/the Inheritance Cycle is deliberately derivative; the author flat out states as such. It wasn't made to fix or deconstruct anything; it was a fantasy fanboy wanting to make archetypical fantasy and hitting every trope in the book. You say so many goddamned words to prove my point and scuttle your own, @sunandshadow
 
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Alright...so...how do you force a thing to happen if quest slowed down too much and has gotten boring? Random explosions come to mind....
It's highly situational. I tend to plan dozens of events and run them all simultaneously in the background when things get boring. At least one of them will show up on screen. Sometimes I have to rig it, but normally if I preplan where all these events are and leave tiny hooks, someone will pick up on one. Overplanning makes for a more alive world, in my opinion. Even if a lot of my viewers tend to complain that they feel they miss out on things.

I could give a better answer if I actually knew what the situation was.

On the other hand, I personally obsessively monitor likes in everything I do. Including Quests, since that sometimes tells you who is willing to read your Quest, but not vote, even though you need a damn tiebreaker.
I personally have uh, done that.
Nothing pisses me off more than a Quest I really like writing fucking dying from lack of votes while there are like eight lurkers enjoying it.
Fuck them. Fucking, take turns voting or something, I don't care. Just make sure there are three votes per update that are well thought out, please. You can PM me the reasoning if you're that bothered. Fuck you can PM me the vote, I will post it for you without your name.
Just don't let the quest fucking die.

T_T I'm sorry!! It's just so stressful to vote...
No... No it's not. See above post to Laurent.
 
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T_T I'm sorry!! It's just so stressful to vote...

No... No it's not. See above post to Laurent.

Yes. Sometimes it is. Sometimes, when you're on the cusp on a situation where a lot is on the line, and you're not sure which vote is good or bad...and there's a lot of heated debating...and you don't want to be the one vote to fuck it up...yes, it can be.

I personally have uh, done that.
Nothing pisses me off more than a Quest I really like writing fucking dying from lack of votes while there are like eight lurkers enjoying it.

Still, this is a thing. If I see a good quest and that it needs votes, I'll try....because I wouldn't want my quest to die from lack of voting...
 
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