An alternate evolution of the castle in fantasy

mage rarity: roughly 1 per village, that is not there is one in every village; but in general, there is a mage for every village. Mages prefer isolation and the fact that a mage has a higher chance to parent a mage creates a huge disparity in the mage distribution.
So about 1 Mage per 150 or so Normies, and if you have magic your children are more likely to have magic?

Boy, that's going to make things fun when some country discovers how genetics work, and decides to eugenics it's way to Wizard Master Race.
 
What's the most powerful wizard like? I realise OP stated not to discuss magic so much but you really can't avoid it considering magic can range from artillery to mind control.
 
Don't invoke magic if a mundane solution exists? So never invoke magic?

You can't throw something out to 100m. That's over 300 feet. That's twice as far as a soldier can throw a grenade.

Regardless, a 120mm explosive going off anywhere on a castle wall is not good for any medieval fortification.

Then what's the point? I mean, the only other thing to talk about is stuff like dragons, to which the answer is just,"put a fireproof roof over everything."

Also, you said one mage a village, but then say it's a low fantasy setting. That's like the exact opposite of a low fantasy setting.

Unless by low fantasy you mean,"Fantasy but in the real world", but then there's still magic.

What if it's a permanently enchantment using a soul like with a golem?

Your OP specified magic as one of the factors, so you can't blame people for talking about it.
Then make your own damn thread about it.
This topic was plagued with people making up random shit and then claiming "regular soldiers and castles are useless and if not then I make up a new ability which makes it so". That's not a constructive debating at all.

Anyways, 120mm shells can have 3-5kg HE filler and assuming TNT that's indeed not going to be weak at all. Still, far from undefensible by the methods we described prior.
Basically you jump to the 16th century star-forts or preferably their direct continuation since rather than (relatively) high-velocity impacts of stone and lead you worry about explosions that doesn't bother with the steep angles of the walls.
Article:
The crater

Generally speaking, the blast of the artillery projectile creates a crater (or a shell hole) , if it penetrates the soil, and explodes underneath the surface at an optimum depth. The blast throws up soil high into the air, from which a part scatters around the point of impact, while a part falls back into the crater and to the edges of the crater creating a small embankment surrounding the hole. The maximum depth, where this type of a crater will be formed is roughly 10 times the caliber, which is usually also the radius of the blast.
Of course, the soil is also a factor. It's obvious that the resulting crater in soft sand in different than it is in a hard and rocky terra
Not sure if this is a reliable source but according to it a spell with 120mm HE level of explosive power would only penetrate about 1.2m earthen wall while forts can have several meters of his. I say this is sufficient to call a protection, especially with a multi-meter stone wall encased within it.
With roughly 1 spellcaster per village density you can probably acquire armies of such mages the same way as cannons were a thing. And of course this means mages in forts for counter-artillery defense. Again, points towards star fort style development.
Mages are also far easier to "transport" and "set up" so potentially they can bring some 18th century style artillery warfare to the battlefield.
On the other hand if they don't have defensive spells they are squishy as hell and really only can be interpreted as "artillery but magic". Which is actually a good thing if you try to otherwise envision a down to earth and historical setting.
 
This topic was plagued with people making up random shit and then claiming "regular soldiers and castles are useless and if not then I make up a new ability which makes it so". That's not a constructive debating at all.
I mean, when you're brainstorming all of the ways that a castle could fail in a relatively undefined 'Fantasy' setting, in order to determine how the castles would be altered, it's basically going to be taken for granted that doing so... Involves regular castles and soldiers failing.

If you're going to complain about the thread which is meant to discuss how castles would fail and be adapted in a fantasy setting involves people talking about XYZ ways a castle could fail in a fantasy setting, and insist on treating magic as nothing but an analogue for artillery (And thus leading to the same adaptations as artillery) you may be missing the point somewhat.

EDIT: I mean, this is a worldbuilding thread, not a VS debates.
 
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I mean, when you're brainstorming all of the ways that a castle could fail in a relatively undefined 'Fantasy' setting, in order to determine how the castles would be altered, it's basically going to be taken for granted that doing so... Involves regular castles and soldiers failing.

If you're going to complain about the thread which is meant to discuss how castles would fail and be adapted in a fantasy setting involves people talking about XYZ ways a castle could fail in a fantasy setting, and insist on treating magic as nothing but an analogue for artillery (And thus leading to the same adaptations as artillery) you may be missing the point somewhat.

EDIT: I mean, this is a worldbuilding thread, not a VS debates.
Um, what?
You may wish to second check what I wrote. The fact I talk about mages are artillery is because of the conditions set by the OP now. Not that mages must be only an artillery here.
The problem is that people very soon veered this conversation into their own wank fantasies about invincible mages and how they make everything irrelevant. That's the opposite of a constructive debate, even if there wouldn't be a set standard for the power of mages. They basically refused to cooperate and made up their own army of super magicians that make regular soldiers pointless and even a detriment to actual battles.
 
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Castles are where Lords live and plan, right?

Well a decent scryer wouldn't even need to attack the castle to conquer it if they could listen to all the internal conversations
 
Castles are where Lords live and plan, right?

Well a decent scryer wouldn't even need to attack the castle to conquer it if they could listen to all the internal conversations
That's exactly why such an ability would be either rare and almost unheard of or there are existing magic defenses against it. Perhaps both so both potent scrying magic to spy with is rare but defenses exist which are similarly rare and expensive.
That almost goes back to my previous ire. We talk about a setting here, not about how to break it. There needs to be a healthy balance.
 
Also, you said one mage a village, but then say it's a low fantasy setting. That's like the exact opposite of a low fantasy setting.
I said I'd make it a low fantasy setting if the only continuously discussed subject was magic.
Your OP specified magic as one of the factors, so you can't blame people for talking about it.
my OP mentioned magic, which was apparently a mistake. It also mentioned dragons, how many posts do you see discussing that?
120mm shells can have 3-5kg HE filler and assuming TNT that's indeed not going to be weak at all
I suppose I wasn't clear on this, it is the energy contained within the explosive filler that I was talking about. With the 3-5kg of TNT you mentioned 12.552 MJ to 20.92 MJ as the maximum amount of energy a spell can transfer.
Castles are where Lords live and plan, right?

Well a decent scryer wouldn't even need to attack the castle to conquer it if they could listen to all the internal conversations
Lords live in their castles, yes. they also plan things within its walls, but no, this is not its main function. castles were mainly built to keep unwelcome visitors out and to keep the inhabitants safe from said visitors. Also one doesn't conquer a castle to get intel, the objective is usually the occupants or the castle itself. scrying wouldn't necessarily help attack a castle either, there are tales of really well made castles being held by 5 men.
...
defense from Giants, the Skyrim or game of thrones kind
 
I mean, when you're brainstorming all of the ways that a castle could fail in a relatively undefined 'Fantasy' setting, in order to determine how the castles would be altered, it's basically going to be taken for granted that doing so... Involves regular castles and soldiers failing.

If you're going to complain about the thread which is meant to discuss how castles would fail and be adapted in a fantasy setting involves people talking about XYZ ways a castle could fail in a fantasy setting, and insist on treating magic as nothing but an analogue for artillery (And thus leading to the same adaptations as artillery) you may be missing the point somewhat.

EDIT: I mean, this is a worldbuilding thread, not a VS debates.
There's a very large difference between planning a defense against an army supported by 5th level mages, and an army being supported by 20th level mages, and the thing that people like to do in this thread is that they start out by describing an army supported by fifth level mages, and when someone points out that fifth level mages can't actually achieve the sweeping changes to the way war is fought that they claim to describe someone else pops in and starts describing an army supported by a 20th level mage who of course can totally effect those sweeping changes, and then the entire discussion falls apart because the two scenarios have about as much in common as 40k space combat and star wars, but people insist on treating them like they are discussing the same thing.

Replace 5th and 20th level with Harry potter and Elder scrolls if you need an alternative analogy.
 
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yes but if they go for the gatehouse the gate wouldn't stand much of a chance against them
Gatehouses are pretty tight, and designed specifically to kill anybody who breaks into it. I'd say the giant is the one who doesn't stand a chance.

They could be useful for moving siege engines though.
 
yes but if they go for the gatehouse the gate wouldn't stand much of a chance against them
Assuming they can fit inside it. It's entirely possible that gatehouses could be designed to just not let giants get inside in the first place, let alone what murder holes do. As Sassy Sauron mentioned, I suspect they'd be better for logistics than actual combat.
 
The more magic wars resembles a nuclear exchange, the more castles will resemble nuclear bunkers.

I actually like this idea a ton.

It's worth noting that for the spans of time when full-on intercontinental magical missile exchanges aren't currently ongoing, your castle still needs to be able to perform the useful functions of a castle. This implies some ability to dominate and overlook the surrounding landscape, be able to relatively quickly deploy its garrison into the surrounding countryside, and receive visitors and supplies from its immediate environs. A minimalist concession to this would probably be a single above-ground structure, likely a tower or citadel, which could overlook the surrounding landscape, project power outwards, be a highly visible symbol of control, and make a more convenient drop-off place for supplies and trade goods than letting random mule traders into your underground vaults.

In an outright cataclysmic magical conflict, the overstructure itself would be destroyed or ruined very quickly; which is no huge loss as it's only one building which has done its job. Alternately, if the artifice exists, something compact like a tower or citadel might be able to be densely warded or built out of extremely robust materials in a way less practicable to do for an entire sprawling fortress. In this scenario the citadel itself might actually be the equivalent of an ICBM silo or NORAD in the magical nuclear exchange; the terrible focal seat of power for a sorcerer king whose dread gaze can cast death half the world away. Meanwhile the storehouses, barracks and armouries sleep below, waiting for the thunder and fire to cease, and the smoke to clear.

It's further worth noting that if we compare this idea to the archetype of the Dark Lord's fortress from classic fantasy, or the archetypal ruined dungeon from roguelike games, parts of D&D and other classic fantasy, there are remarkable similarities. Both tend towards a (relatively) small structure above ground, and then a vastly larger underground complex made up of various vaults and tunnels. With the added wrinkle in the ruined dungeon archetype being that the point at which we get to see the fortress is typically deep into the post-apocalyptic future after the magical nuclear exchange; often when it's being squatted in by the fantasy equivalent of The Lord Humungus and his dogs of war. This provides an interesting framework in which to view these old fantasy standbys, I think, although in some cases (Angband for one) it's notably more or less the original framework. Hyperlight Drifter also runs with this idea full pelt, perhaps unsurprisingly given its post-apocalyptic setting and the influence of classic fantasy on the game.

Fantasy castles and subterranean fastnesses which are as much Fallout as they are The Fall of Gondolin are definitely something it would be cool to see more of.
 
I actually like this idea a ton.

It's worth noting that for the spans of time when full-on intercontinental magical missile exchanges aren't currently ongoing, your castle still needs to be able to perform the useful functions of a castle. This implies some ability to dominate and overlook the surrounding landscape, be able to relatively quickly deploy its garrison into the surrounding countryside, and receive visitors and supplies from its immediate environs. A minimalist concession to this would probably be a single above-ground structure, likely a tower or citadel, which could overlook the surrounding landscape, project power outwards, be a highly visible symbol of control, and make a more convenient drop-off place for supplies and trade goods than letting random mule traders into your underground vaults.

In an outright cataclysmic magical conflict, the overstructure itself would be destroyed or ruined very quickly; which is no huge loss as it's only one building which has done its job. Alternately, if the artifice exists, something compact like a tower or citadel might be able to be densely warded or built out of extremely robust materials in a way less practicable to do for an entire sprawling fortress. In this scenario the citadel itself might actually be the equivalent of an ICBM silo in the magical nuclear exchange; the terrible focal seat of power for a sorcerer king whose dread gaze can cast death half the world away. Meanwhile the storehouses, barracks and armouries sleep below, waiting for the thunder and fire to cease, and the smoke to clear.

It's further worth noting that if we compare this idea to the archetype of the Dark Lord's fortress from classic fantasy, or the archetypal ruined dungeon from roguelike games, parts of D&D and other classic fantasy, there are remarkable similarities. Both tend towards a (relatively) small structure above ground, and then a vastly larger underground complex made up of various vaults and tunnels. With the added wrinkle in the ruined dungeon archetype being that the point at which we get to see the fortress is typically deep into the post-apocalyptic future after the magical nuclear exchange; often when it's being squatted in by the fantasy equivalent of The Lord Humungus and his dogs of war. This provides an interesting framework in which to view these old fantasy standbys, I think, although in some cases (Angband for one) it's notably more or less the original framework. Hyperlight Drifter also runs with this idea full pelt, perhaps unsurprisingly given its post-apocalyptic setting and the influence of classic fantasy on the game.

Fantasy castles and subterranean fastnesses which are as much Fallout as they are The Fall of Gondolin are definitely something it would be cool to see more of.
This is effectively what I'm doing in my own book. In it, everyone's a mage and mana can be losslessly stored indefinitely, leading to disturbing concentration of power over time by ancient houses. At the highest level, you have three continent-spanning empires with enough mana stored to let loose power on par with a couple strategic nuclear weapons, so the capital cities of the empires are hardened with sprawling underground networks and heavy magical shielding with the palaces very much resembling nuclear bunkers, aside from, as you mentioned, perfunctory above-ground structures that are more for general administration than national security.

I bring this up because this level of fortification need only apply at the highest level. The royal families are simply so ancient that their mana stockpiles have grown to the point that no lesser house has any realistic chance of usurping power. This leaves building such hardened fortresses unnecessary for anything other than the imperial capitals. Consequently, lesser lords need only build their castles to resemble bastion forts, enough to repel a land-hungry peer, the in-fighting being encouraged by the royals as it keeps the lower nobility from ever getting enough mana to threaten their rule.

In the real world, we don't harden everything either, only those that are strategically critical. NYC would suck to lose in a nuclear exchange, but nonetheless, it has no real defense because it isn't necessary for second-strike capability. The only places defended to the point that they could actually "withstand" WWIII are NORAD and Moscow. NORAD is under a mountain, and both locations are (last I heard) armed with defensive nuclear missiles. That is to say, not nuclear weapons that are used for counterattacking. I mean they are nukes literally aimed at the air above those locations with the sole intent being to blast incoming nukes out of the sky. Such defenses are exceptionally expensive and exchange long-term habitability with short-term invincibility, but strategically, they do their job: they ensure MAD still stands by guaranteeing second-strikes.

In a fantasy world, you're going to see the same thing where extreme defenses will only be where strategic-nuke-level mages reside to make sure they can retaliate. Everywhere else is just wasteful.
 
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Fantasy castles and subterranean fastnesses which are as much Fallout as they are The Fall of Gondolin are definitely something it would be cool to see more of.
I like the idea, and have played around with similar ones in the past, but I have a nasty tendency to get caught up in building the rules and settings for original fiction, and then never getting around to writing an actual story.
 
The other alternative is something like the Runequest set-up, where everyone has a little bit of magic, and it's woven into the fabric of daily life.
 
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