For those not familiar with the tolkien setting the limitation being that what is invested is a part of the maker and doing so permanently lessens them.
An Admirable Maia in the Phoenix King's Court Tolkien/Warhammer Fantasy
- Thread starter Silver Gambit
- Start date
- Crossover
Only Champion in Forging stuff? Mairon was the 3rd best Smith ever IIRC. 1st was Feanor. 2nd was Aule. He deserves a legendary rank in it. The Rings of Power were really spectacular in terms of feats they were capable of too.
Crucially he has not made the rings yet, it would be the creation of the rings of power including the one ring that would give him legendary, it is important to remember that this is Mairon post first age, he has not even begun to enter his prime power, that would happen during the second age.
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But I would think that he would need the skills at Legendary to make the Rings. They are the sort of item that need Legendary skill to do, after all.
True. On the other hand, the Warp(and soon the winds) is another source of power for our arts that we will be able to draw upon soon enough. It may even be possible for our soul to grow via faith of people praying to us or otherwise viewing us as a god, although that would likely make us uncomfortable if we want to keep on the proper path.
Morgoth is a weird case where he is technically mixing Wizardry and Investment into a skill that only he understand well enough to use.
You can learn this skill but seeing as he never actually bothered teaching you how he did what he did with the creation of the Dragons or the Orcs, you would be working backwards with what you know and what you could gleam from him as he did it. An example of this skill from someone not named Morgoth would be Saruman creating the Uruk-Hai by mixing the song of Man with the song of Orcs, crucially that involves two already existing songs to manipulate and mix, Morgoth could almost (though not quite) create an entirely new part of the orchestra from scratch. That Morgoth was Divine in this skill is a given.
As to what any of that just meant with the song or what Investment/Wizardry means, the Info post for that is done so that will be answered right now.
On the magic system of LoTR and how it works for this quest
As far as LoTR magic works in this quest there are three things to keep in mind.
Wizardry - Is a catch all term used to differentiate between warhammer magic and LoTR magic, if it involves manipulating the song that makes up the world, it is Wizardry. This can involve any number of things such as making horses run that ever bit quicker or ensuring that the rock hanging above the camp in the hills above falls that ever bit slower, it's super vague and weird, as a result of that a lot of times this will be mostly automatic things done during the course of an update, on occasion there might be an write-in that might involve the question "Can we do this with Wizardry?" the answer will always be maybe and subject to QM ruling, but it is an option to ask.
Investment - is the term used to signify imparting part of your song into an object, the more significant and well made the object is the better the investment will be, a ring made of iron in an poor farmers shop made with the same investment as the one used on the one ring would do almost nothing, that very same investment on a ring made of gold forged in the heart of mount doom, can control the hearts and minds of others, impart the ability to shape shift into a form not dissimilar to your "natural" form causing a sort of invisibility effect, among many other things. This can take on a number of esoteric forms, such as imparting the smiths cold personality into a sword causing it to freeze enemies struck by it frozen solid, or giving a pair of necklaces the essence of the makers natural beauty causing anyone who wears them to be considered unnaturally beautiful by others of their kind.
This is the one that you will be voting on most often, as it is intrinsically linked to you as a smith and will be involved with every crafting vote you have. Be aware however that this is also where the Zero Sum rules comes into play the most as every thing you put in to an object can not be put back into you, you will always have a limit as to the amount of yourself you can put into something. It is worth noting though that the power of the investment increases exponentially with the amount of yourself put into it, this allows you to put a little amount of whatever aspect of your self into an item instead of all that one aspect into one thing.
Song of Power - This is using the song stuff of your soul to sing into being very real effects, this can mean any number of things, such as routing armies with a song that imparts visions of dark wings and beady eyes, or dueling an enemy in what is essentially a magical rap battle reminding them of their worst failures and regrets, generally the zero sum rules stays away from this one, this is very vague as are most parts of the LoTR side of things, it's just unfortunately part of the fact that Tolkien's universe does not mesh well with an actual defined system with hard rules like warhammer's.
there are other things about it that can be answered on a case by case basis in thread, and I'll thread mark them in informational as they come but this is the most basic points that should help for now.
- LoTR magic is a Zero Sum game, you are using your soul to do and power this stuff, certain things don't eat up this power that is fundamentally you, like say talking to birds with wizardry or engaging in a battle of song, somethings however like investment are literally imparting part of what makes up you into something to power it, you can only do this so many times until you are a helpless ghost unable to act upon the world, and once that piece of you is gone it's gone for good. This is one of the reasons why magic is fleeting and slowly disappearing in the third age.
- LoTR magic can achieve feats that are vaguely defined and work more on concepts then on hard and fast 'this is what this does' terms, for example you can whisper to trees to encourage them to grow strong and hale or calm a mountain to stop an avalanche from starting, but you can't say a few specific latin words and blast fire out of your hands cause that's what the fire ball spell does, there are no spell names or cantrips to learn.
- The World is made of song, even the Warhammer world is made of this song stuff, that when combined and seen as a whole is a (mostly) wonderful orchestra. You can manipulate this song, and you can transfer parts of one song to another, but no one but Eru Iluvatar can fully create another song wholesale in this or any world.
Wizardry - Is a catch all term used to differentiate between warhammer magic and LoTR magic, if it involves manipulating the song that makes up the world, it is Wizardry. This can involve any number of things such as making horses run that ever bit quicker or ensuring that the rock hanging above the camp in the hills above falls that ever bit slower, it's super vague and weird, as a result of that a lot of times this will be mostly automatic things done during the course of an update, on occasion there might be an write-in that might involve the question "Can we do this with Wizardry?" the answer will always be maybe and subject to QM ruling, but it is an option to ask.
Investment - is the term used to signify imparting part of your song into an object, the more significant and well made the object is the better the investment will be, a ring made of iron in an poor farmers shop made with the same investment as the one used on the one ring would do almost nothing, that very same investment on a ring made of gold forged in the heart of mount doom, can control the hearts and minds of others, impart the ability to shape shift into a form not dissimilar to your "natural" form causing a sort of invisibility effect, among many other things. This can take on a number of esoteric forms, such as imparting the smiths cold personality into a sword causing it to freeze enemies struck by it frozen solid, or giving a pair of necklaces the essence of the makers natural beauty causing anyone who wears them to be considered unnaturally beautiful by others of their kind.
This is the one that you will be voting on most often, as it is intrinsically linked to you as a smith and will be involved with every crafting vote you have. Be aware however that this is also where the Zero Sum rules comes into play the most as every thing you put in to an object can not be put back into you, you will always have a limit as to the amount of yourself you can put into something. It is worth noting though that the power of the investment increases exponentially with the amount of yourself put into it, this allows you to put a little amount of whatever aspect of your self into an item instead of all that one aspect into one thing.
Song of Power - This is using the song stuff of your soul to sing into being very real effects, this can mean any number of things, such as routing armies with a song that imparts visions of dark wings and beady eyes, or dueling an enemy in what is essentially a magical rap battle reminding them of their worst failures and regrets, generally the zero sum rules stays away from this one, this is very vague as are most parts of the LoTR side of things, it's just unfortunately part of the fact that Tolkien's universe does not mesh well with an actual defined system with hard rules like warhammer's.
there are other things about it that can be answered on a case by case basis in thread, and I'll thread mark them in informational as they come but this is the most basic points that should help for now.
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[X] Vaul's Heart: A land with few Asur to populate its mountainous depths, however, do not let its small population fool you into thinking those few are weak. For it is here that Vaul, God of the Forge, slaved away for his monumental works with his ever fiery anvil, and it is in his shadow these people's council with the mightiest beasts of creation, Dragons.
MagnificentMind
To Live is to Suffer
[X] Vaul's Heart: A land with few Asur to populate its mountainous depths, however, do not let its small population fool you into thinking those few are weak. For it is here that Vaul, God of the Forge, slaved away for his monumental works with his ever fiery anvil, and it is in his shadow these people's council with the mightiest beasts of creation, Dragons.
- Location
- Norway
You have no taste.
He is far too pale. Must be from spending all day inside. So I am voting for the option likely to have the most outdoors and sunlight.[X] Averlorn: The birthplace of all Asur, every member of every family, no matter how great or small, can trace their lineage back to Averlorn as it is here that the Old Ones birthed them into this world. It is also here that the many Everqueen's Rulers of all Ulthuan will forever hold court. The current Everqueen is Lithrindrion, an old and arrogant woman even for the long lived Asur.
Travler66
Let her name echo in song!
- Location
- Beyond
[X] Vaul's Heart: A land with few Asur to populate its mountainous depths, however, do not let its small population fool you into thinking those few are weak. For it is here that Vaul, God of the Forge, slaved away for his monumental works with his ever fiery anvil, and it is in his shadow these people's council with the mightiest beasts of creation, Dragons.
[X] Vaul's Heart: A land with few Asur to populate its mountainous depths, however, do not let its small population fool you into thinking those few are weak. For it is here that Vaul, God of the Forge, slaved away for his monumental works with his ever fiery anvil, and it is in his shadow these people's council with the mightiest beasts of creation, Dragons.
- Location
- Postcard from the Root
[X] Averlorn: The birthplace of all Asur, every member of every family, no matter how great or small, can trace their lineage back to Averlorn as it is here that the Old Ones birthed them into this world. It is also here that the many Everqueen's Rulers of all Ulthuan will forever hold court. The current Everqueen is Lithrindrion, an old and arrogant woman even for the long lived Asur.
- Location
- France
[X] Yvresse: A land that only recently gained the official title of Kingdom, Yvresse is a bleak coastal region blanketed by fog with an outward appearance of a desolate empty waste of space. It is here however with perhaps the strongest people in all of Ulthuan for they love their Kingdom and Island more than any other Asur could even begin to understand, and it is this love that will drive them to do whatever needs to be done to preserve it no matter the cost.
Aramis
An unwilling witness
- Location
- Who cares?
[X] Vaul's Heart: A land with few Asur to populate its mountainous depths, however, do not let its small population fool you into thinking those few are weak. For it is here that Vaul, God of the Forge, slaved away for his monumental works with his ever fiery anvil, and it is in his shadow these people's council with the mightiest beasts of creation, Dragons.
VOTE IS CLOSED
Vaul's heart Won, the writing process starts now!
Vaul's heart Won, the writing process starts now!
- Location
- Here & There
Craft wonders worthy of the gods.
Imagine a collaboration between an avatar of Vaul and our character here.
As a side note, it's hinted that some of the canon elves' enchantment techniques may have something similar to our methods. Teclis apparently may have put a fragment of his soul into each of the Orbs of Sorcery he made for the Colleges. Of course, in Warhammer, there are some suggestions souls grow back.
As a side note, it's hinted that some of the canon elves' enchantment techniques may have something similar to our methods. Teclis apparently may have put a fragment of his soul into each of the Orbs of Sorcery he made for the Colleges. Of course, in Warhammer, there are some suggestions souls grow back.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Investment seems to be pretty risky unless it's essential or provides a reinforcement of the creator like the Rings of Power. The way it's worded I can only imagine how Feanor was so great after crafting the Silmarils.
How are we supposed to prove our ability if we lessen ourselves each time we make something?
How are we supposed to prove our ability if we lessen ourselves each time we make something?
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The One Ring exception
I'm glad you asked, there is a way to break this system slightly, in canon Sauron is stronger with the ring then he was before he made it despite this when he has the ring he is basically nothing, the reason for this is that for things at the level of the silmarils or the one ring the system glitches and actually gives you more than you originally had
The problem being that without these things, you are even lesser than you would be other wise.
It is a risk reward question as to whether you decide to invest into something, so while you do not have too, anything you invest in will be generally stronger than anything uninvested that you make.
Wasn't prechaos Warhammer fantasy very advanced to the point of 40k @Silver Gambit
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That we aren't required is the important thing! I got the impression it was tied into every act of forging.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
No, it really wasn't. Old ones were kicking around, sure, and the Lizardmen actually used technology a bit, but Elves weren't really techno based.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Vote is closed.