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All Aboard The Magic Hellbus! Let's Play Limbus Company

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Darklurker said:
Well one thing that certain is that dongbaek demise was a boon to all K corp feathers. After all, if her plan had come to fruition, the consequences would have been much more destructive and terrible than anything Dongrang did. Many players are fascinated by the purity of her thoughts and the beauty of her EGO, forgetting that Dongbaek is not a very good person. And that's putting it mildly.
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Eh. Dongrang is actively participating and reinforcing the existing structure of the City. We just learned that the massacre of Sinclair's village was authorized just so that they would get more snuff film material to create tears from.

Dongbaek isn't a "good" good person, but I'm not sure you can argue that whatever she could have done would be more destructive and terrible than what the City already does to it's inhabitants.
 
Birthday said:
Eh. Dongrang is actively participating and reinforcing the existing structure of the City. We just learned that the massacre of Sinclair's village was authorized just so that they would get more snuff film material to create tears from.

Dongbaek isn't a "good" good person, but I'm not sure you can argue that whatever she could have done would be more destructive and terrible than what the City already does to it's inhabitants.
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I've been thinking about this question for a long time actually. On the one hand, Dongbaek's motives are sincere and pure. An attempt to break the existing cycle of vice and exploitation. But there is one very big But. When I meant the destructive consequences, I spoke about the inevitable fall of the wing if her plan was successful.

Let's say she succeeded. The singularity has been destroyed, the exploiters and tormentors have lost their power, but what next?
Thanks to the previous game, we know what awaits the fallen feathers after the wing is completely cut off. Instead of the triumph of talent and pure thoughts about how to create a better future, people will have more important things to do. For example, choose a new owner who will not charge too much for patronage and will not be too cruel to his new rats. In the end, for most feathers, after the collapse of their home, there is only the fate of a rat.

Although K corp is a capitalist nightmare capable of burning at any moment those who have already exhausted the benefits that they could bring. Or even being a nuisance like all the inhabitants of the city of Kalw, it still protects the rest of the more fortunate or useful ones. And
unfortunately, there is no guarantee that yesterday's lucky and useful people will not meet tomorrow becoming unnecessary and expendable.

I'm not trying to justify the way K Corp runs its territory. But the ugly truth is that almost no one would trade the stability of the nest for a hypothetical bright and clean future. Especially if there are other forces that have their own plans for newborn rats.
 
Darklurker said:
Let's say she succeeded. The singularity has been destroyed, the exploiters and tormentors have lost their power, but what next?
Thanks to the previous game, we know what awaits the fallen feathers after the wing is completely cut off. Instead of the triumph of talent and pure thoughts about how to create a better future, people will have more important things to do.
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Are you arguing that Dongbaek's plan was doomed to failure? Or that the destruction she brings as a result of trying to change things makes her an immoral person. Because those are very different arguments.

For the former, yes. The TLA are basically nobodies when it comes to the big picture of the City, as shown by the fact that even our little group of murderhobos can tear through their army.

For the latter, I disagree? At this point, when it comes to attempting to change the City, violence and collateral damage is an inevitability, because the type of social upheaval and revolution that changing the City would require has to be destructive in some part. Like, there is no magic solution where the City stops being a dystopia and the Wings and their Nests somehow remain intact. When faced with the binary decision of "Try to change the City and cause the deaths of a bunch of people as a result" or "Let the City continue existing in it's current form as a figurative meat grinder of people", I'd argue that the latter would result in the deaths of far more people over a longer period of time?


Darklurker said:
Although K corp is a capitalist nightmare capable of burning at any moment those who have already exhausted the benefits that they could bring. Or even being a nuisance like all the inhabitants of the city of Kalw, it still protects the rest of the more fortunate or useful ones.
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Except it doesn't.

Exhibit A) The Bull. Dongrang had clear forewarning that the TLA would release an Abnormality, there were seemingly no preparations for combatting such a threat. If anything, K Corp seems to be content to kick back and watch the Bull massacre civilians and film their deaths to create more tears. And it's not like K Corp has any way of knowing whether these people could still be useful to them, their deaths are entirely random because the fact of the matter is that everyone in a Nest is expendable unless you are above a certain level of influence/importance to the Wing.

Exhibit B) Samjo is nothing but loyal, earnest and supportive of Dongrang. Because K Corp's serum helped heal him, he has essentially eternal gratitude towards K Corp and Dongrang. To the point where he staunchly believes that the K Corp Serum is incapable of hurting people and dives into a vat of undiluted tears in order to prove it. And dies. And what does Dongrang do? Absolutely nothing. And it's not like telling Samjo about the dangers of the undiluted tears would compromise his loyalty. Dongrang chooses to do nothing because at the end of the day, he doesn't care about Samjo enough to prevent his death.

Heck, Dongrang could have nipped this whole situation in the bud by simply exposing Shrenne as the traitor before the Sinners' arrived in the first place. Probably could have saved tons of employees at K Corp. But he didn't.

And that's because the dystopic "utilitarianism" of K Corp is just a facade put on to convince the rank and file Feathers that the system is fair (or as fair as something can be in the City). That if they work hard enough and struggle hard enough, they'll be safe within the Nest because the Wing will protect them. When the truth is that they're in the exact same situation as the people in the Backstreets, their lives and deaths subject to the whims of people more important and more powerful than them.
 
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only one person ever managed to burn brighter then the cities book powered fires. shes gone now.
 
Birthday said:
For the latter, I disagree? At this point, when it comes to attempting to change the City, violence and collateral damage is an inevitability, because the type of social upheaval and revolution that changing the City would require has to be destructive in some part. Like, there is no magic solution where the City stops being a dystopia and the Wings and their Nests somehow remain intact. When faced with the binary decision of "Try to change the City and cause the deaths of a bunch of people as a result" or "Let the City continue existing in it's current form as a figurative meat grinder of people", I'd argue that the latter would result in the deaths of far more people over a longer period of time?
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I know that change requires sacrifice, but are the changes she wants to make necessary? The vision of a world so dear to her, we already saw during the battle, is impossible because for that heaven all singularities will have to be destroyed and all syndicates neutralized. Otherwise, the majority of the population will have to learn the craft of organ collecting. And that doesn't even take into account the stigma of being a fallen wing that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

So yes, this is a surprisingly crude method for introducing lasting change. Plus, you can't help but deny that there was clear spite in her actions. Killing ordinary employees with such cruelty and cold blood shows this.

To summarize, the fall of a wing is not something unique for a city, but it is always a huge tragedy comparable to defeat in a war. Trying to break the cycle, Dongbaek continues the process of violence and pain. People will be free from K corp but still bound by their newfound status of helpless rodent.
 
Birthday said:
And what does Dongrang do? Absolutely nothing.
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To be a bit fair here, didn't DOngrang just go 'hey dude what're you doing'. In fact, from just recently playing it here's how I was rememering--The Sinners theorize that 'pure' tears are dangerous, Samjo is a bootlicker of such unparallelled kissassery that he could not accept that even though Mr. Ratfuck there didn't even seem to be bothered by it that as his Secreatry he's here to protect K-corp's(and Dongrang's) honor and jumped into the Tears.

Before any of them realize it, Samjo just jumped. Like due to being VN media we don't quite understand the moment by moment, spatial condition there but I see it less that Dongrang didn't care enough to not warn him but none of them could comprehend what Samjo would do immediately like that.
 
holyseamces said:
To be a bit fair here, didn't DOngrang just go 'hey dude what're you doing'. In fact, from just recently playing it here's how I was rememering--The Sinners theorize that 'pure' tears are dangerous, Samjo is a bootlicker of such unparallelled kissassery that he could not accept that even though Mr. Ratfuck there didn't even seem to be bothered by it that as his Secreatry he's here to protect K-corp's(and Dongrang's) honor and jumped into the Tears.

Before any of them realize it, Samjo just jumped. Like due to being VN media we don't quite understand the moment by moment, spatial condition there but I see it less that Dongrang didn't care enough to not warn him but none of them could comprehend what Samjo would do immediately like that.
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Well he really didnt care enough to try and do something. Even his reaction reflect that after this scene. Reasons for his behaviour will be explained later in the story.
 
To be absolutely clear on something, I don't believe Dongbaek is morally clean at all as an actor in this mess. I was more interested in digging into where her vision of beauty is coming from, and the importance it has in comparison to the City's demands and flawed promises, and what Yi Sang seems to want (or not want) out of life now.
 
Darklurker said:
The vision of a world so dear to her, we already saw during the battle, is impossible because for that heaven all singularities will have to be destroyed and all syndicates neutralized.
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But... This is what has to happen anyway for lasting change to occur in the City? You call her method crude, but with how fucked the City is, there is no other method in which to change the City except through force because the people at the top of the capitalist hellhole foodchain want to keep the City as a capitalist hellhole.

Like again. You seem to be criticizing Dongbaek's lack of foresight on what exactly her plan for creating her ideal world would require her to do. But I don't see how that is a statement on her morals, because I'm pretty sure Dong Baek (post-EGO) wouldn't have stopped with just K Corp's Singularity if she had succeeded.

The TLA going out of their way to target the scientists and ordinary employees of K Corp is definitely an immoral action, I'm not going to argue that. Like I said, Dongbaek is not a "good" good person. But I thought our discussion was moreso focused on Dongbaek's overall goals.

holyseamces said:
Before any of them realize it, Samjo just jumped. Like due to being VN media we don't quite understand the moment by moment, spatial condition there but I see it less that Dongrang didn't care enough to not warn him but none of them could comprehend what Samjo would do immediately like that.
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No, he very clearly states that he's going to jump into the vat of tears quite a while before he actually jumps. It's just that Dongrang treats Samjo's decision like a joke, while the Sinners are moreso alarmed by his sudden decision.

And then immediately after Samjo's death, Dongrang is pretty much like "Welp, that happened."
 
what boon, working themselves to death in a hellish megaconglomerate that feeds on suffering?
 
FallsSideways said:
Ironically, this does feel like the sort of thing Samjo might type from beyond the grave. How is your phone still working in there, man? Climb out of that well.
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It's a choice between a corporate slave and a servant on a leash for a syndicate. You deservedly hate wing practices while forgetting that the alternative is no better. Library of ruina showed well the consequences of such an incident. Instead of the deceitful and manipulative practices of the wings, they will meet a fist or a sword or a gun that is real and honest in its demands. Pay or die or worse.
So going full scorched earth because you despise metods of the wings is not right thing to do. What she accomplish is ruined lives of everyone involved guilty or not. And most importantly even with her EGO she still will be very easily be gunned by thumb or sliced by index but that only matter if well-being of the feather even mattered to her but that clearly not hte case. Instead she just let the vultures in they lives.
 
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questioningmeme said:
To be fair, being a Fixer also works. Sure the chance of dying is a lot higher then but it's not bad work given what we see of Fixers.
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Yesterday clerks or restaurant are not very capable of learning combat skills especially in such quick pace. Most face the fate of a Finn who was used as a consumable. Yes, the Fixers' job involves not only killing someone, but it is very, very unstable. I still remember Kurokumo clan story or lenny. And sadly this will most possible case for many people.
 
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questioningmeme said:
To be fair, being a Fixer also works. Sure the chance of dying is a lot higher then but it's not bad work given what we see of Fixers.
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I can very hardly imagine an ordinary resident of the nest who, for example, works in the lowest paid job and, after observing the work of a low-profile fixer, decides that this is a much more attractive idea.
But I can't help but note that such people exist in the city. But they dont need fall of the wing to try and search they own path in life unbound by their corporate lords.
 
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Birthday said:
But... This is what has to happen anyway for lasting change to occur in the City. You call her method crude, but with how fucked the City is, there is no other method in which to change the City except through force because the people at the top of the capitalist hellhole food chain want to keep the City as a capitalist hellhole.
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The problem with this is that you cannot change the City with force alone.

Because the City has a lot more force than you can ever muster up, it's not just the people at the top of the capitalist hellhole that want to keep it that way either.

It's the people to your right, to your left, in front and back of you, above and below you too.

Dongbaek's goals were shortsighted at best, and actively detrimental at worst.

She has no plans for what to do if the technologies are discovered only to be misused once again.

She has no plans regarding what the people relying on those technologies should do once she deletes their technology.

The wings you see around you all rose by tearing down the previous wings or rose from their ashes. The Smoke War was one such attempt at 'changing' the City and it didn't change at all, merely replacing one problem with another.

Trying to force the Head out of power is so utterly impossible short of a full City rebellion. Even then it might not be enough.

But that's giving undue credits where none are deserving.

Dongbaek's desires are good at a surface level, but she isn't trying to change the City.

All she wants is to return to the past and re-live her happy memories. Dongrang himself calls her out correctly, that the dream of "Technological Liberation" is nothing more than a load of (Brazen) Bull.

At her core, Dongbaek's dream was one of selfishness. Selfishness strong enough and emotionally charged enough that she pushed through her breakdown and manifested E.G.O of the beautiful world she dreamed of.

But selfishness all the same.

Because Dongbaek wasn't someone capable of seeing all of the City and its many facets. She cannot comprehend what it truly means to 'change' the City beyond the faulty personal viewpoint she has.

Human Infrastructure supports many many many things. Health care, food, water, order, protection, and more complicated concepts.

As an intelligent person, Dongbaek should be aware of the immense consequences of what her plan will do. If she wanted to 'help' the City, her goal would've been centered around killing Wings and making their technology 'public' like others already known tech.

But that's not her goal. Because bettering people's lives wasn't what her goal was about.

She chases the joy of discovery, not knowing that many simply want to live a better life.
 
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A common view I see online is the city is a hellscape capitalist dystopia, and that the problems in the series stems from that.

I think that misses the point honestly, the city is a criticism of capitalism because it is the economic system we all live in. If it was any other alternative, they would be criticizing that too.

Really, the entire series ultimately focuses on the struggles of people against the nature of the city, and the head.

The former we've become familiar with, just human nature at its worst. But the latter remains an unknown. Some people treat the head as just A, B, and C corp. But the more little tidbits we get about them. The more it feels like the Head would exist regardless, that A, B, and C are just the main ways they assert power. That all three could collapse and all that means is the next 3 corps to rise would be the new A, B and C.

They're written so horrifically more powerful than everything else, it's not even viable to think one could overthrow them with power. They feel more like a force of nature. Except where most force of nature villains are individuals personifying something. Here, it's an organization that enforces hardship on the populace for... what? Exactly?

It's not profit. We know it's not, otherwise they would be expanding the city and not have specific laws regarding humanity. Why would they care? We also know the head is atleast as powerful if not more so than anything in the outskirts or the ruins. They kicked those things out of the city after all.

They're such... they're written more like the main villain for a doctor who series than anything every single other character we've seen could possibly take on.

They are the driving force behind every single conflict so far. It is their laws that dictates why the wings act the way they do. It is their taxes that treat people no better than rats. It is under their guidance that the history of the city is shaped.

And yet we know so little.
 
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MoonAddict said:
A common view I see online is the city is a hellscape capitalist dystopia, and that the problems in the series stems from that.

I think that misses the point honestly, the city is a criticism of capitalism because it is the economic system we all live in. If it was any other alternative, they would be criticizing that too.

Really, the entire series ultimately focuses on the struggles of people against the nature of the city, and the head.

The former we've become familiar with, just human nature at its worst. But the latter remains an unknown. Some people treat the head as just A, B, and C corp. But the more little tidbits we get about them. The more it feels like the Head would exist regardless, that A, B, and C are just the main ways they assert power. That all three could collapse and all that means is the next 3 corps to rise would be the new A, B and C.

They're written so horrifically more powerful than everything else, it's not even viable to think one could overthrow them with power. They feel more like a force of nature. Except where most force of nature villains are individuals personifying something. Here, it's an organization that enforces hardship on the populace for... what? Exactly?

It's not profit. We know it's not, otherwise they would be expanding the city and not have specific laws regarding humanity. Why would they care? We also know the head is atleast as powerful if not more so than anything in the outskirts or the ruins. They kicked those things out of the city after all.

They're such... they're written more like the main villain for a doctor who series than anything every single other character we've seen could possibly take on.

They are the driving force behind every single conflict so far. It is their laws that dictates why the wings act the way they do. It is their taxes that treat people no better than rats. It is under their guidance that the history of the city is shaped.

And yet we know so little.
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Dont push all blame on the head. They didnt ordered K corp film suffering or endorsed all other wing practices. I could talk more about K corp but this will be spoiler. Head could blamed because they have power to end every syndicate and wing.
 
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Darklurker said:
Dont push all blame on the head. They didnt ordered K corp film suffering or endorsed all other wing practices. I could talk more about K corp but this will be spoiler. Head could blamed because they have power to end every syndicate and wing. They could throw everyone to their knees but they never try to use all their might to end everyone suffering. They just let everyone do what they want with some conditions of course.
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uh... bestie, k corp wouldnt be buying snuff films if they didnt need to produce endless profit. this sort of thing can only exist with the head making the world like this.
 
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