A Supercarrier and a College (Newport, Rhode Island ISOT)

[PAGDTenno]

They're definitely not going to have the documentation for the production tooling, the components, the production tooling for the components, the manufacturing processes for the materials that go into the components...

TL,DR:

Most things aren't going to come along much earlier than OTL, as far as physical designs go.

 

[TerraBull]

I can agree with not having the Assets.

But they would have the Intelligence.

Of Germany's Oil Weakness and where they had Synthetic Oil Production.

Where Germany Launched it's Submarine Fleets from and what Cities to Blow to Rubble.

Ball Bearing Plants?

Is loading Napalm Bombs to hit Ships a Viable Option?

 

[Burning Baron]

Is loading Napalm Bombs to hit Ships a Viable Option?

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Not very. Napalm, by Vietnam, was an extra fuel tank filled with gas mixed with powdered laundry detergent. It was barely in infancy by 45.

 

[J-Sail]

Also I doubt that the libraries would be quite as useful as anticipated. Now that they have no Internet connection. So if it isn't on paper or available as a document on the drives already, it may as well have been not invented or discovered yet.

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I can picture them having Archives as well as several hardened bunkers with servers.

Perhaps I can also see them having Blueprints of Declassified WW 2 designs.

Along with Students having done Reports on Past Conflicts. Strategic Resources & Industrial Targets.

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Networks, if there were any (and yes it would be likely at this point), would be local with dial-up speed connectors to a max of T1/E1 on the very high-end - think more the BBS type thing for "internet" use than what we are using today (yes, the internet has been available since 1994, but not as we know it today), AOL/Delphi/etc were still a thing. 2GB HDDs were still VERY expensive for general use (think the prices you would pay for (edit 1+ TB HDDs now, then factor inflation for relative worth). NUWDC would have some of the higher-end-available computers for engineering purposes (a source of specialized naval engineering and very limited nuclear know-how) with either a UNIX (AN-UYK series mainframe a possiblity), NT 3.5/3.51, or NT 4.0 network for local purposes (with emphasis on NT 4.0 for general military server use). I mentioned before a heavy inventory of TEMPEST 386 machines running WIN 3.1/3.11 that were still prevalent at shore installations; when I went to a training command (a pre-commissioning command in SD, CA) in 98, there were only a handful of "non-standard" Pentium/Pentium IIs running WIN 95/98 in a non-network/dial-up configuration available with most of the admin staff servicing us using older machines that were "certified" for network use.

NUWDC would have a lot of detailed information regarding ASW and submarine related engineering and analysis information, a significant amount in dead-tree storage configuration. The NWC would mostly factor dead-tree storage of tactics, strategy, and analysis, but relatively light on the necessary specialized information outside of surface ships, subsurface boats, and USMC related tactical information (amphibious and field operations), not inclusive of most blue-prints beyond a "this is how this sort of thing generally works" level of information; a saving of only the "most brilliant" student/staff papers from any given year is the most likely rather than "all of them." A city library would be more likely to employ hard-copy encyclopedias (with a very surprising amount of selectively detailed information) than networked info, and have a random mix of anything else that would be useful (to include theory or biographical/documentary books on relevant topics). Private libraries/expertise would be all over the charts, with a probable high focus on military information if a recent report means anything then: Approximately 80% of the Newport population is either active military, dependents, retired military, or federal government civilians.

 

[AlphaDelta]

I can agree with not having the Assets.

But they would have the Intelligence.

Of Germany's Oil Weakness and where they had Synthetic Oil Production.

Where Germany Launched it's Submarine Fleets from and what Cities to Blow to Rubble.

Ball Bearing Plants?

Is loading Napalm Bombs to hit Ships a Viable Option?

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Or: destroy all of Germany's electric production. No power plants, no electricity, no factories, and everything comes grinding to a halt.

 

[J-Sail]

Or: destroy all of Germany's electric production. No power plants, no electricity, no factories, and everything comes grinding to a halt.

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Not that simple: The mere existence of "modern" warships that require electricity means that "portable" engine use for electricity is a thing. In fact, putting a railroad rated engine of any type in a reinforced basement would mean an even more difficult time in shutting down the attached manufactory.

 

[CV12Hornet]

Not that simple: The mere existence of "modern" warships that require electricity means that "portable" engine use for electricity is a thing. In fact, putting a railroad rated engine of any type in a reinforced basement would mean an even more difficult time in shutting down the attached manufactory.

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The Germans have enough issues making engines and getting fuel to them (coal included), and now you want to disperse electrical generation the God knows how many factories Germany has? Especially when the Germans will only learn they end to do this when the grid is already down?

Frankly, this is a cure almost as bad as the disease.

 

[Burning Baron]

Or: destroy all of Germany's electric production. No power plants, no electricity, no factories, and everything comes grinding to a halt.

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Well I mean the Brits did do that. They targeted hydroelectric dams in order to both halt production of material and flood the valleys below.

Eder dam got hit twice because the silly fools fixed it.

 

[J-Sail]

The Germans have enough issues making engines and getting fuel to them (coal included), and now you want to disperse electrical generation the God knows how many factories Germany has? Especially when the Germans will only learn they end to do this when the grid is already down?

Frankly, this is a cure almost as bad as the disease.

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Erm... I assume you meant "need" instead of "end?" Otherwise agree.
The other difficulty is that if they do this early enough in the war, those railroad engines are still readily available - use a little Von Neuman magic at a manufactory, maybe even with some engineering upgrades, and it becomes a "nightmare" disease... Especially if you add increased incentive to synthesize... synthetic oils (I had heard somewhere along the way that this was the era that really kicked this off - especially in Germany).

Edit: Or perhaps a "nightmare cure" from the allies perspective instead?

 

[rodon]

Erm... I assume you meant "need" instead of "end?" Otherwise agree.
The other difficulty is that if they do this early enough in the war, those railroad engines are still readily available - use a little Von Neuman magic at a manufactory, maybe even with some engineering upgrades, and it becomes a "nightmare" disease... Especially if you add increased incentive to synthesize... synthetic oils (I had heard somewhere along the way that this was the era that really kicked this off - especially in Germany).

Edit: Or perhaps a "nightmare cure" from the allies perspective instead?

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Nope, you are vastly under estimating this. For instance, where are you going to fine all that copper that Germany doesn't have much of. For instance, one of the big factors in rejecting putting an electric drive in a German tank was were were they going to find all that copper. As for synthetic oils, German was already trying to do this in a big way. The problem was that all their efforts weren't enough and they were dumping a ton of effort into it already. It doesn't help that synthetic oils that Germany used were expensive to make.

You are also ignoring that those railroad engines are already in use and pulling them off the lines to power a factory is just robbing 'Peter to pay Paul'. It got worse later on in the war as the allies shot up the German rail industry. You also have the issue that railroad engines aren't supposed to run continuously, they have to be cleaned of ash and filled with water. Which mean you need to deal with power outages or double your engine needs. Going by big factories, you'll need to pull 400 engines off the lines to power 200 factories (assuming one factory large can be run with two engine that each produce 150 hp). Germany had to produce 6,700 engines during WW II and they still didn't meet their needs (note, Britian post war produced ~2,000 to replace their worn out entire fleet and standardize), that gives you an idea of how much they lost and how much they needed those engines to shift around forces and materials.

Upgrading the engines isn't really a thing either, you don't think the railroads wouldn't try to get their engines running at their most efficient? Also, Von Neuman isn't magic, each factory will only have a few engines at best (ignoring Germany's cottage industry) which means that each factory has to stop what it is doing to make the stuff for the change over, or an entire factory needs to build conversion kits for dozens of models of engines.

 

[J-Sail]

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1) Copper isn't the only thing than can be used for electrical transmission, merely the most efficient/cost effective/safest. Enough for lighting with a bare minimum amount of copper within the factory (anyone outside can deal with lights-out protocols) and converting everything else to direct drive is possible, especially with the hp rating of the engines in question.

2) A quick check of the types of engines available during the timeframe shows them to be near or above MW class in energy production, or a minimum of about 1100 hp. And do remember I specified early war for availability, tools to make tools and all.

3) I am well aware that the Von Neuman process is not magic, this was said metaphorically/sarcastically, but its defining characteristic is self-replication, in whole or in part. While said engine would not be able to do that directly, it can directly power the equipment necessary.

4) Engineering upgrades come in a whole rainbow of flavors, especially when space is not as limited as it would be to be used as a locomotive: converting to diesel power (which was in fact done on several models after the war), making multiple firing chambers that can be swapped out rapidly to remove ash with minimal downtime, changing the boilers to more effectively use the now available space, changing the boiler process to recycle more of the water than a locomotive would normally, rearranging the steam pistons in either number, direction, or size, engineering changes to make direct drive more efficient with available resources, etc.

The main things preventing this is the inability to think outside the box regarding the problem, commanders who want to prioritize their stuff now to fight their portion of the war, and a tyrant that was going stage 3 syphilis crazy demanding the impossible with the resources available/misusing said resources.

 

[rdfox]

Regarding IR missiles: I don't think it's impossible that a research program into them might bear fruit by the time the war is over. Projects to start developing them were underway before 1947, when a B-29 carrying an experimental IR seeker (intended to track the sun) crashed into Lake Mead, and, as I said, the Sidewinder project started in 1949 with it shooting down drones by 1954--and the original Sidewinder guidance was about as bonehead simple as it could get; the only place it even needed vacuum tubes was as a signal amplifier between the seeker and the control section. (The logic was quadrant-based "bang-bang" control--when the target is in one quadrant of the seeker head, apply full control authority in that direction until it moves to another quadrant, then repeat the process until the VT fuze activates. This resulted in the missile's snakelike motion that got its name...)

Pretty much the only part of the AIM-9 that doesn't exist on 8 December 1941, technologically, is the material for the seeker head itself--and that's a simple thing to change, given that by the 80s, even Salamander's "lots of pretty pictures and some questionable analysis" books available to civilians were revealing that early "hot spot"-tracking IR missiles used lead sulfide as their seeker head material, while more modern ones used another material (which I can't remember and I don't have my old book at hand) that was responsive to IR emissions from cooler objects and could track on the airframe, not just the exhaust. While the longer-wave seekers might not be feasible at the time, just knowing that lead sulfide is the material you need for a basic IR seeker would get you most of the way there (it's a very common material, being the principle ore of lead). While PbS reacts to blackbody radiation in the 1100-2000C range (too hot for an effective tracker) in its natural state, liquid nitrogen cooling (which would certainly be mentioned in the documents available at the NWC--it was a standard part of every Sidewinder before they went all-aspect) reacts in the 725-1450C range, which is right around where most gasoline engine exhausts are.

And no, liquid nitrogen wouldn't be a problem, either; it was first liquefied in 1883, and cryogenic air separation plants producing liquid oxygen and liquid nitrogen with production measured in the tons per day began operations in the 1930s. While massive growth in the sector occurred after the end of WW2, a military requirement for LN2 would see plants built during the war. It's simply a matter of if it was seen as a high enough priority--and once the V-1 and Me-262 start showing up, a way to guide High Velocity Aerial Rockets onto an aircraft would be seen as rather important, since they're not exactly easy things to catch and shoot down.

 

[CV12Hornet]

1) Copper isn't the only thing than can be used for electrical transmission, merely the most efficient/cost effective/safest. Enough for lighting with a bare minimum amount of copper within the factory (anyone outside can deal with lights-out protocols) and converting everything else to direct drive is possible, especially with the hp rating of the engines in question.

2) A quick check of the types of engines available during the timeframe shows them to be near or above MW class in energy production, or a minimum of about 1100 hp. And do remember I specified early war for availability, tools to make tools and all.

3) I am well aware that the Von Neuman process is not magic, this was said metaphorically/sarcastically, but its defining characteristic is self-replication, in whole or in part. While said engine would not be able to do that directly, it can directly power the equipment necessary.

4) Engineering upgrades come in a whole rainbow of flavors, especially when space is not as limited as it would be to be used as a locomotive: converting to diesel power (which was in fact done on several models after the war), making multiple firing chambers that can be swapped out rapidly to remove ash with minimal downtime, changing the boilers to more effectively use the now available space, changing the boiler process to recycle more of the water than a locomotive would normally, rearranging the steam pistons in either number, direction, or size, engineering changes to make direct drive more efficient with available resources, etc.

The main things preventing this is the inability to think outside the box regarding the problem, commanders who want to prioritize their stuff now to fight their portion of the war, and a tyrant that was going stage 3 syphilis crazy demanding the impossible with the resources available/misusing said resources.

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Even early in the war Germany didn't have enough railroad engines for its economy due to steel production earmarked for armaments rather than railroad engines. They rather quickly started developing massive piles of coal next to their mines for lack of rolling stock to transport it.

The fact of the matter is that there weren't enough engines to start and the Germans are already robbing Peter to pay Paul when it came to steel allocations.

 

[J-Sail]

Regarding IR missiles

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You are ignoring that the sensors weren't even available. It would be possible to develop them, quicker than OTL, due to "knowing it's possible" and some of the tech advancements available either in theory or engineering examples from the ISOT-event facilities/ship (fire-finding equipment as part of the ship load-out), but there are more important things to focus on at this time.

Even early in the war Germany didn't have enough railroad engines for its economy due to steel production earmarked for armaments rather than railroad engines. They rather quickly started developing massive piles of coal next to their mines for lack of rolling stock to transport it.

The fact of the matter is that there weren't enough engines to start and the Germans are already robbing Peter to pay Paul when it came to steel allocations.

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I think I summed up most of that with the last part of the statement, but it is a somewhat irrelevant argument at this point since the Germans are OTL opposition and not ISOT supported protagonists.

 

[FailLord]

Thinking about it I read a book series which has a similar premise as this fic, I forgot the name as I read it along time ago, I only remember it ending with Berlin and Tokyo being nuked.

 

[Jimmy C]

I forgot the name as I read it along time ago, I only remember it ending with Berlin and Tokyo being nuked.

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It should be the Axis of Time series by John Birmingham. The books are Weapons of Choice, Designated Targets, Final Impact.

 

[TerraBull]

About the only way they would have access to usable Nuclear Tech is if they had Military on leave to visit.

It just so happens, New London/ Groton is just a State Away.

Groton, Connecticut - Wikipedia

General Dynamics Electric Boat - Wikipedia

It may be possible.

 

[J-Sail]

About the only way they would have access to usable Nuclear Tech is if they had Military on leave to visit.
It just so happens, New London/ Groton is just a State Away.
It may be possible.

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You are forgetting about NUWC facility: These are the people who do the engineering tweaks as required (to include failure/accident analysis), set/maintain the materials standards needed, develop the maintenance information specific to the community (certain systems are "universal" to the general fleet and might have different "owners"), help develop the training standards, and archive the crap out of anything to do with at least the US sub fleet as well as information on other-nation Navy subsurface systems. https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Warfare-Centers/NUWC-Newport/What-We-Do/

They might have enough information to redo/build an improved Nautilus class before the end of WWII by OTL dates. This would also assume that they don't just concentrate on the "we can/are already building it today" diesel sub and torpedo tweaks under the philosophy of "best is the enemy of good" in war time. Being successful with a Nautilus class variant would be readily transferable to nuclear power in general and a surface fleet in specific, with the downside of increased build times due to needing to be much more exact for safety reasons than a conventionally powered hull.

 

[FailLord]

You are forgetting about NUWC facility: These are the people who do the engineering tweaks as required (to include failure/accident analysis), set/maintain the materials standards needed, develop the maintenance information specific to the community (certain systems are "universal" to the general fleet and might have different "owners"), help develop the training standards, and archive the crap out of anything to do with at least the US sub fleet as well as information on other-nation Navy subsurface systems. https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Warfare-Centers/NUWC-Newport/What-We-Do/

They might have enough information to redo/build an improved Nautilus class before the end of WWII by OTL dates. This would also assume that they don't just concentrate on the "we can/are already building it today" diesel sub and torpedo tweaks under the philosophy of "best is the enemy of good" in war time. Being successful with a Nautilus class variant would be readily transferable to nuclear power in general and a surface fleet in specific, with the downside of increased build times due to needing to be much more exact for safety reasons than a conventionally powered hull.

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Wouldn't more effort be put into completing the Manhattan Project now that it is shown that Instant Sunshine is completely viable and exists in the future?

 

[J-Sail]

Wouldn't more effort be put into completing the Manhattan Project now that it is shown that Instant Sunshine is completely viable and exists in the future?

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Earlier, almost certainly; more, probably not. While the tech is slightly different, for a fast-breeder style reactor, it is much more difficult to prevent BAD THINGS happening than causing them to happen. Then figure that 1) there is the by-1998-declassified historical references for the project that would give them a huge leg up in development, 2) fuel availability is relatively scarce during WWII, so having a non-fossil fuel dependent powerplant either on shore or ship might be highly desirable.

Edit: To give an example of fuel usage, the Burke class destroyer has "bunkerage" for well over 100,000 gallons of diesel fuel (nowhere near actual figure) with the LM2500s having probably similar, but somewhat better efficiency than 1940s boiler/diesel tech. This is for a relatively short "cruising endurance" and "pitiful" "full-power endurance" without the need to resupply. Now imagine how much fuel a battleship would then require.

 

[rdfox]

Earlier, almost certainly; more, probably not. While the tech is slightly different, for a fast-breeder style reactor, it is much more difficult to prevent BAD THINGS happening than causing them to happen. Then figure that 1) there is the by-1998-declassified historical references for the project that would give them a huge leg up in development, 2) fuel availability is relatively scarce during WWII, so having a non-fossil fuel dependent powerplant either on shore or ship might be highly desirable.

Edit: To give an example of fuel usage, the Burke class destroyer has "bunkerage" for well over 100,000 gallons of diesel fuel (nowhere near actual figure) with the LM2500s having probably similar, but somewhat better efficiency than 1940s boiler/diesel tech. This is for a relatively short "cruising endurance" and "pitiful" "full-power endurance" without the need to resupply. Now imagine how much fuel a battleship would then require.

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Iowa was built with bunkerage for 9,320 tons of fuel oil. This works out to 2,810,367.427 gallons. Endurance at cruise was 14,890 nautical miles at 15 knots (the most efficient speed). This works out to her burning 188.74 gallons per mile traveled.

For a more apples-to-apples (DD to DD) comparison, the Fletcher class destroyers carried 492.3 tons of fuel oil (148,448.915 gallons), with an endurance of 4800 nautical miles at 15 knots, or 30.93 gallons per mile.

An even more apples-to-apples comparison (going by tonnage) would be the Pensacola-class cruisers (similar displacement and total power compared to the Burkes). They carried 2,116 tons of fuel oil (638,061.961 gallons) with an endurance of 7020 nautical miles at 15 knots, or 90.89 gallons per mile.

While the actual numbers for LM2500-powered warships are, as far as I can tell, still classified, these should give those who are in the know a ballpark estimate of whether or not the steam turbines were more efficient. (My guess, based on native thermal efficiency ratings of different kinds of engines, is that the gas turbines are a bit more efficient when running at the right speeds...)

(All fuel capacity and endurance numbers from Norman Friedman's Illustrated Design History series.)

 

[J-Sail]

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Not classified as such, except an individual unit's exact status, but not FOIA releasable as I understand it. Between the number of LM2500s in use (several for power and several for propulsion), I would say the Fletcher's numbers are closer than the Pensacola's. Except for unusual circumstances, their operating speed doesn't usually change all that much from cruising levels (full-power an obvious exception) between ship's cruising speed and operational-but-standing-still-in-the-water (aka station keeping). As a sort of idea what that means for efficiency, look up the problems the Russians had when they first installed turbine engines in their tanks.

Nonetheless, your statistics underline my point about effectively unlimited cruising range desirability that a shipboard powerplant would give while also noting the difficulties in keeping either a BB or a Forrestal class in operation, fuel-wise.

 

[SSgtC]

Nonetheless, your statistics underline my point about effectively unlimited cruising range desirability that a shipboard powerplant would give while also noting the difficulties in keeping either a BB or a Forrestal class in operation, fuel-wise.

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The one thing the Navy of 1941 has over the Navy of 1998 though, is easier access to fuel. Yes, I know, more oil was being produced in 1998 than in 1941. And a lot more too. But the demand for that fuel was significantly lower (outside of the military). Plus, with being involved in total war, rationing cut civilian demand by at least an order of magnitude. So keeping a Forestall fueled up shouldn't pose an undue strain on logistics

 

[J-Sail]

The one thing the Navy of 1941 has over the Navy of 1998 though, is easier access to fuel. Yes, I know, more oil was being produced in 1998 than in 1941. And a lot more too. But the demand for that fuel was significantly lower (outside of the military). Plus, with being involved in total war, rationing cut civilian demand by at least an order of magnitude. So keeping a Forestall fueled up shouldn't pose an undue strain on logistics

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Compared to a BB? No, not unduly. Doesn't change the desirability with that size chunk of metal being moved through the water, especially in the case of the Forrestal style carrier which could then switch bunkerage to emergency fleet supply and aircraft requirements like a Nimitz class does.

Another consideration, as I understand it, is that modern fractional distillation is all sorts of improved over WWII era. If the know-how is present, this might also extend fuel supplies and better allow more efficient engines being available (less extra tolerance for impurities required).

 

[SSgtC]

Compared to a BB? No, not unduly. Doesn't change the desirability with that size chunk of metal being moved through the water, especially in the case of the Forrestal style carrier which could then switch bunkerage to emergency fleet supply and aircraft requirements like a Nimitz class does.

Another consideration, as I understand it, is that modern fractional distillation is all sorts of improved over WWII era. If the know-how is present, this might also extend fuel supplies and better allow more efficient engines being available (less extra tolerance for impurities required).

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I doubt Newport would have information on refining oil. Or rather, anything more specialised than the basics which really wouldn't be any different from 1941. About the only major change, would be the types of jet fuelv that are best. Instead of stumbling through several different variations of fuel, they can go straight to JP-4 or JP-5. Both fuels were developed in the early 50s (51 and 52 respectively), so there shouldn't be any issues making them in 1942. Other than that though, I don't think the knowledge base would be there to really increase efficiency in oil refining.