A New Dawn (Ex-Papergeist) - A Worm/Naruto Crossover

[SaltyWaffles]

Well Armsmasters mind has been slightly warped by his powers, so you've got to look at this in terms of efficiency.

Irrational as it is, Taylor's actions were not 'optimal', which would be on some level, frustrating. Add in Armsies particular tinker obsession, and it's the kind of thing that you will latch on to as you wallow in the guilt of a situation go so wrong when It should of went so right.

I actually think that AlSmash 's depiction of Armsmaster is quite nuanced and well done.

Furthermore, negative mental effects of powers are in a fact a real thing in worm. The existence of parahuman asylums, Sveta, Noelle and especially Burnscar, there is in fact a serious risk of far more severe power induced mental disorders. Taylor is in fact technically 'mastered' by Konans personality, and is fundamentally changing, which is pretty fucking worrying from an outside perspective.

I honestly doubt a physical tell in this terrible world of Worm wouldn't be too out of the norm, especially considering the very prevalent militant and paranoid mindsets that are induced by the world's circumstances.

Armsmaster, and by extension the worm universe, is different on a fundamental level and powers in general are an utterly terrifying concept in the setting, as they warp people- everybody in fact, to varying degrees, and that should be taken into account before people complain about things like Armsmasters response.

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What I find jarring about what happened isn't Armsmaster--it fits with his characterization, sure, and it's understandable that he would make the mistake of assuming that Taylor wouldn't freeze up and not engage the villains right in front of her when the shooting started.

What I find jarring is that Piggot believes that Armsmaster did nothing wrong. It was clear that Armsmaster's highest priority was capturing Victor and Othala, not protecting Hebert and her family. Let's assume that things had turned out differently, and that none of the shots had hit Danny. Taylor would still be pissed at the Protectorate for starting a firefight at her home, especially when the situation was already seemingly defused. By attacking from an angle where he was between the gunmen and her house/family, Armsmaster actively put her family in the line of fire through his actions.

In other words, even if Danny hadn't gotten hurt, Armsmaster's stupidity would have burned the Protectorate's bridges with Taylor. And Piggot is apparently too dumb to realize this.

I mean, capturing Victor and Othala is great and all, but what are the odds that they'd remain in custody for long, given the E88's large roster of capes and footsoldiers? On the other hand, burning their bridges with a new hero is a great way to permanently disunify the heroes in BB even further.

If there was decent video footage of the fight that got publicly released, any law enforcement officer with reasonable training would spot the blatant disregard for civilian safety that Armsmaster showed, and that Danny Hebert's death was as much his fault as it was the E88's.

I'm hoping that New Wave steps in, because they're the only hero group left that Taylor might actually be receptive to. And that the Pelhams become Taylor's legal guardians.

Piggot thinking that there's any way in which Taylor being effectively forced to join the Wards is absurd. All it would take is one slip up--or Taylor getting a little too curious or suspicious--and Taylor finds out that Shadow Stalker is Sophia Hess, and all hell breaks loose. I could see Taylor deciding to either leak the truth out to the press--which would be a PR disaster of epic proportions--or running away to join Faultline's Crew.

 

[EdBecerra]

I could see Taylor deciding to either leak the truth out to the press--which would be a PR disaster of epic proportions--or running away to join Faultline's Crew.

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Or both.

 

[Franklymydear]

Sadly, an apology could be taken as an admission of guilt in any civil suit the Hebert family brings against the PRT.

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This is far too true, and reflected disgustingly by real life. It's part of the reason I don't really have a problem with Piggot's thinking.

What I find jarring is that Piggot believes that Armsmaster did nothing wrong.

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He mostly didn't. Unlike us, he has no idea how the criminals would respond to any (or no) action, and the capes were the overall larger issue, especially in the long run.

He fucked up, yes, but it was in a situation where there was no perfect choice.

Think about it the other way: what would have happened if he'd focused on the gunmen instead? Would the shots have gone into some other house? Hit a car down the road? Killed or otherwise injured him and prevented him from taking any action at all? Prompted Victor and Othala to go on the offensive and set fire to a paper controller's house (remember, they don't know she can deal with that)?

He doesn't know. No one does. There's too many options.

He took out 4 of the 6 people who were clearly threats before attempting to deal with two other people who could very quickly become an even bigger threat.

That's good.

People shot at the house. They killed Danny and made everything worse for Taylor as per usual.

That's bad.

It's also their fault, not Armsmaster's, not only because he has nothing to do with the choices they made that resulted in someone dying, but because that's also how the law works.

If you do, or are doing, something illegal and your actions result in shit going wrong that you didn't intend, you're treated as though you intended it because you're the root cause. Especially when your buddies are busy influencing the response law enforcement can provide.

Piggot isn't saying he couldn't have had a better result, she's saying things had gone wrong from the moment the E88 arrived on the scene.

 

[EdBecerra]

Actually, Frank, Armsmaster charged in because of ego. HE wanted that bust, and he wanted it personally.

He could have simply backed down, backed away, and allowed the Empire forces to leave peacefully.

"Innocent lives are in danger, standing down will save them, there will always be another opportunity to catch the Empire capes -- but then someone ELSE might catch them and get the credit that belongs to ME! No, I simply cannot allow mere danger to innocent lives to get in the way of my ascent to my rightful position on the Triumvirate. It's a pity, but the civilians will just have to live or die as chance will have it."

 

[Franklymydear]

"Innocent lives are in danger, standing down will save them,

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Again, nobody knows this. Standing down could have easily cause the E88 to take the initiative and attempt to take hostages, or attack him all at once putting his own life at risk (six guns and whatever Victor and Othala can throw out is an accident waiting to happen). And even if Armsmaster gets targeted that doesn't stop something or someone from screwing up and hitting a bystander.

I never said he was acting perfectly, that he wasn't thinking of himself, or whatever, just that regardless of what he does there's no right answer.

 

[kitsune9]

Again, nobody knows this. Standing down could have easily cause the E88 to take the initiative and attempt to take hostages, or attack him all at once putting his own life at risk (six guns and whatever Victor and Othala can throw out is an accident waiting to happen). And even if Armsmaster gets targeted that doesn't stop something or someone from screwing up and hitting a bystander.

I never said he was acting perfectly, that he wasn't thinking of himself, or whatever, just that regardless of what he does there's no right answer.

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wait weren't Victor and Othella actively trying to run away?

 

[Shadowl]

"I'm going to have to ask you to leave, Victor. Please. I'm not interested, and further pursuit is only going to end poorly for all of us."

His hands curled at the perceived threat, but there was truth in her statement. His mandate did not allow him to take any action against Hebert at this time. And it wasn't like they didn't know where she was in the future if she so chose to take a stance against them.

No, now was not the time, and just as he made his decision, it was suddenly robbed from him at the sound one of his men shouting "Armsmaster!"

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It certainly looks like it. Although... Maybe not Run away, more tactically retreat.
Victor at least was certain that at current situation, Taylor would not be joining up with the E88 any time soon, and it's at least heavily implied that he was about to either move to retreat or something more drastic.

All logic points to retreat.

Maybe if Halbeard didn't arrive, they would have left peacefully. Maybe, if Halbeard arrived and ordered them to leave, they would have complied, if in a standoffish way.

But instead Halbeard rode in, and said

"Victor and Othala, you are under arrest, surrender quiet—"

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Which is much more aggresive than required here, seeing as two Parahumans were at this point simply talking with another known Parahuman. (Admittedly with a backup escort of multiple men armed with automatic firearms.)

All of this said, the Story is called Papier Geist. That sounds German. So most likely current author plans are Taylor joining the E88 under the Nom de Guerre Papier Geist, or Taylor unleasing horrible vengeance on them, and them nicknaming her Papier Geist. There does not appear to be any middle ground that otherwise makes sense.




*Immediate Edit: also,

His mandate did not allow him to take any action against Hebert at this time.

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he did intend to simply just leave. I just spotted that in my quote...

 

[shinkicker444]

All of this said, the Story is called Papier Geist. That sounds German. So most likely current author plans are Taylor joining the E88 under the Nom de Guerre Papier Geist, or Taylor unleasing horrible vengeance on them, and them nicknaming her Papier Geist. There does not appear to be any middle ground that otherwise makes sense.

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Taylor joining the E88 would make zero sense, them naming her papiergiest after she starts slaughtering them makes much more sense.

There would be very very very few capes that would come close the training or experience that Konan has. None of which would be in the Bay.

 

[Franklymydear]

wait weren't Victor and Othella actively trying to run away?

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All logic points to retreat.

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They were leaving, or at least giving the impression of pulling back, but things change.

If they're running back a little to give them time for backup to arrive, it's best if Armsmaster takes them down before a two vs one becomes a three or more vs one. If they're running back to get out of an area of affect it's best for Armsmaster to follow them and keep himself out of whatever they might have set up.

 

[Skarpien]

No idea why Armsmaster is still getting defended. There is no excuse for his brazenly tunnel visioned reasoning, where you can't argue that he wanted to stop a conflict because he was the one who initiated at first. They were definetly retreating before he went in gung-ho.

They were leaving, or at least giving the impression of pulling back, but things change.

If they're running back a little to give them time for backup to arrive, it's best if Armsmaster takes them down before a two vs one becomes a three or more vs one. If they're running back to get out of an area of affect it's best for Armsmaster to follow them and keep himself out of whatever they might have set up.

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The point isnt that it was the best strategic plan to defeat them, but it was the worst possible scenario to have a firearms-addled capefight. He shouldn't have even thought about fighting at that scenario and especially at that location. Does ENE not care about civilian casualties? Also, he wouldn't even accomplish anything useful even if he did apprehend them. 1 strike off two of E88's capes? He saw an oppurtunity to bag 2 capes and took it regardless of consequence.

What bugs me more than anything is Piggot's mischaracterization. She seems more incopetent and inable to read situations than anything.

 

[Shadowl]

They were leaving, or at least giving the impression of pulling back, but things change.

If they're running back a little to give them time for backup to arrive, it's best if Armsmaster takes them down before a two vs one becomes a three or more vs one.

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Why would they be retreating for more backup? They specifically had orders to not act aggressively against Taylor. And from Taylor's interactions with The two of them, any sane person would agree that Taylor is likely to never work willingly with the E88. And It's likely Konan wouldn't allow herself to be coerced into it either, although they don't know that. It's probably even safe to say that the gun wielding goons present are only there as bodyguards for Victor and Othala, considering how important Othala especially is to the E88.

Armsmaster is literally the ONLY active reason a fight happened. As such the fault for Danny's death lies primarily at the feet of Armsmaster. Maybe they'd have come back one day if Armsy hadn't interuppted, but I don't think they would have done so aggressively.

But regardless of ifs, maybes, and hypotheticals: Shit happened, and it happened solely because Armsmaster screwed up.

 

[kitsune9]

They were leaving, or at least giving the impression of pulling back, but things change.

If they're running back a little to give them time for backup to arrive, it's best if Armsmaster takes them down before a two vs one becomes a three or more vs one. If they're running back to get out of an area of affect it's best for Armsmaster to follow them and keep himself out of whatever they might have set up.

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??
alright, so some people are using OOC knowledge which I am trying to avoid so It looks like I have to try and answer.

No what he should have done is secured the people actively shooting at things rather then the people running away. With the knowledge that as the Empire was the ones that had started this they would have brought every one they had thought they needed. If they were coming back with backup they wouldn't need to be buying time because Hookwolf would have been taking a nap in the car they arrived in. Since they didn't do that; at the very least Velocity would have gotten there before any empire backup arrived. By staying to capture the thugs he would have de-escalated the situation because he wouldn't be running directly at their backup capes and further away from any backup of his own.

As for the area of effect power; attacking Victor and Othella would have still left the people he came to rescue behind in said area of effect.

 

[Franklymydear]

it was the worst possible scenario to have a firearms-addled capefight. He shouldn't have even thought about fighting at that scenario and especially at that location.

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But by this logic you're saying that if any of the gangs ever bring guns to a civilian area they should be given a free pass to do whatever they want unmolested.

Also, he wouldn't even accomplish anything useful even if he did apprehend them. 1 strike off two of E88's capes?

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Why is capturing two capes not accomplishing anything?

Why would they be retreating for more backup? They specifically had orders to not act aggressively against Taylor.

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It's funny how you think Kaiser has been coordinating with the PRT so the heroes know what his plans and intentions are.

No what he should have done is secured the people actively shooting at things

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See, I do agree that this is probably something he should have done. At the same time, I find it very difficult to outright agree with the rest of your post because it's mostly framed in a scenario where everything from that point onwards goes right for Armsmaster, because:

rather then the people running away.

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He has no idea what Victor and Othala are doing or planning to do.

With the knowledge that as the Empire was the ones that had started this they would have brought every one they had thought they needed.

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He has no idea how many capes they have on site or nearby.

If they were coming back with backup they wouldn't need to be buying time because Hookwolf would have been taking a nap in the car they arrived in.

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He has no idea how far away any backup might be, or what would signal the backup to act.

Since they didn't do that; at the very least Velocity would have gotten there before any empire backup arrived

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Again, no one knows how far away any Empire support is. If Velocity is 60 seconds out, Fenja and Menja could be right around the corner.

By staying to capture the thugs he would have de-escalated the situation because he wouldn't be running directly at their backup capes

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Unless stopping to arrest the thugs results in Othala giving Victor a power to attack Armsmaster with.

As for the area of effect power; attacking Victor and Othella would have still left the people he came to rescue behind in said area of effect.

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I'm not sure what my stance is on this, simply because I can't remember exactly where Taylor's paper clone was, but I'm pretty sure it was no where near the gunmen so he shouldn't have been leaving any civilians anywhere near danger.

It's all a matter of him not knowing literally anything that the Empire is doing. You (and others) are definitely correct in saying that at that exact point intima the gunmen were the bigger threats, but Armsmaster can't expect that nothing will change, and the capes are the bigger long term issue if practically any part of the situation changes.

Sometimes you make the best choice you can and it goes wrong. That doesn't mean it was the wrong choice to make.

Edit:
Just to be clear, I'm not condoning Armsmaster's attitude, or how he's deflecting his blame onto Taylor. That's all on him.

 

[kitsune9]

It's all a matter of him not knowing literally anything that the Empire is doing.

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So what does armsmaster know then,

He knows their objective in being there is recruiting Taylor and he knows that objective failed. He knows that the empire sent a team focused on talking to people. Finally he knows that they are running away while people with guns are covering there retreat.

Even if they do have reinforcements, chasing them is a terrible move. If people are running away to buy time for those reinforcements to arrive. then it's likely that they are running towards those reinforcements rather then away from them. Which means rather then protect the people he would be charging towards an incoming group of empire capes under the impression that he could capture and foam the two runners before the empire rounds the corner. Then he would have to keep them imprisoned while fighting Alabaster or Rune.

If for some reason their coming the other way it would mean that he would be leaving the new cape undefended while he chased them.

As for turning around and attacking after they started to run, Othella's power doesn't grow over time. Which means if they turned to attack and he didn't chase them they would have to backtrack which takes time and wouldn't give any real advantage expect giving him time to finish off the gunmen.

running to reinforcements before attacking would depending on distance. Either be no different from starting the fight right away or give him time to invite Taylor and Daniel to the Rig and dodge the attack.

Stop trying to justify his tactics you can't. He made the decision he did because he decided that removing the empire's healer and her body guard was worth the added risks in a strategic sense.

 

[Franklymydear]

He knows their objective in being there is recruiting Taylor

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He knows that they convinced Taylor, a newbie, that they were there to recruit her. He does not know what they think they're there for.

he knows that objective failed

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Or that Taylor lied. Or that recruiting her is a ruse to get the PRT to respond.

He knows that the empire sent a team focused on talking to people.

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He doesn't know this. Again, this is what he has been led to believe is probably the case by a brand new cape he has no reason to trust.

Finally he knows that they are running away while people with guns are covering there retreat.

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Partially true. He knows this is what it looks like.

Stop trying to justify his tactics you can't. He made the decision he did because he decided that removing the empire's healer and her body guard was worth the added risks in a strategic sense.

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How can you tell me not to justify his actions when in the same paragraph you justify his actions.

Regardless, I already said his actions were wrong. I'm not justifying things, I'm accepting that there wasn't any correct choice given the situation.

Alternatively, stop trying to demonize someone for making a split second decision in the middle of combat that only went wrong after things he couldn't control made their own decisions.

He's already being a massive twat for a multitude of reasons, I don't see why people need to focus hating him for something that doesn't exist.

 

[Skychan]

Regardless, I already said his actions were wrong. I'm not justifying things, I'm accepting that there wasn't any correct choice given the situation.

Alternatively, stop trying to demonize someone for making a split second decision in the middle of combat that only went wrong after things he couldn't control made their own decisions.

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I'm afraid I have to chime in here.

There wasn't a combat situation until he escalated things.

The only split second decision he made was to drive into a situation where possible hostiles were closer to a possible ally than him, without any violence currently occurring nor any weapons being pointed at anyone else.

His actions directly escalated the situation and ran the risks of creating either a hostage situation or open firefight. Those actions turned it from a confrontation to a battle. I'm not certain why you don't feel like a correct choice exists.

 

[Cetashwayo]

@Franklymydear and anyone else in the thread, please remember that spaghetti posting is against the rules; speciifcally when you make a large number of quotes (no hard number but above 3 or 4 is stretching it) in a post when you're arguing with someone. It's hard to read and frankly disruptive to the enjoyment of other people. I'm going to leave it at this warning but if you keep doing it there could be infractions handed out.

This doesn't apply to quoting posts from multiple people separately in a single post, but if you're splitting up the post of a single person multiple times that's a problem.

If you have any questions you can PM me or go to the Ask a Private Question for more information. Everyone else feel free to go back to your insect-themed Chuunin exams. Or whatever this thread is about.

 

[JayBA]

How can you tell me not to justify his actions when in the same paragraph you justify his actions.

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He didn't justify Armsmaster's actions. He explained what Armsmaster's thinking was. He didn't say it was the right way to think.

And your whole 'things change' foolishness is ridiculous. That can be used to justify practically anything, and is worthless as a reasoning tactic. "We shouldn't start a war with China", "things change so we should start a war preemptively". Thats nonsense.

 

[kitsune9]

He's already being a massive twat for a multitude of reasons, I don't see why people need to focus hating him for something that doesn't exist.

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I am not demonizing him for his choices nor am I Justifying them. I was trying to follow his possible reasoning and then showing why I believed that chasing after Victor and Othella was the wrong choice even if he believed those things.

Several of your earlier statements seem to be unlikely. If they were what he was thinking; he would be a far bigger jerk than he was shown to be in story. I cannot think of anything else they could have been there for, and yes I did read your PRT ambush claim. We have dismissed this claim.

It makes a lot more sense for the new cape to have to deal with a recruitment attempt then it does for it to be a diversion to draw in a lone protectorate cape who would already have backup incoming.

My last point highlighted the difference between tactics and strategy. You are attempting to defend his tactics. I would advise that you switch to the other choice if you want to continue this discussion.

 

[Franklymydear]

You're all going back to expecting Armsmaster to know everything about what the E88 are doing. You're all expecting him to either just not show up at all, or to show up and stand there doing nothing, and in both situations just hope for the best that the E88 does nothing wrong.

While they're standing outside someone's house with guns and parahumans.

If you were sitting peacefully in school and a handful of known bullies came over and surrounded you, would you not hope for a teacher to show up and tell them to leave? Or would you expect the teacher to think "Well, I know they're bullies, and I know they have a habit of hurting people, and I know you're a likely target for them, but I'm sure that this time absolutely nothing will go wrong at all!"

Worse yet, you're wanting the teacher to pull the hanger-ons away but leave the people responsible for everyone else alone. A more appropriate example would be if Gladly had pulled everyone off Taylor in the hall, then left her alone to deal with Emma and Sophia because he just hopes that they have magically learned the error of their ways and won't do anything to Taylor.

That's the attitude and response you're trying to apply to Armsmaster and call 'correct'.

Because, and I'll keep saying this until you stop it, Armsmaster isn't reading the story and doesn't know what's going on.

Spoiler: Skychan

There wasn't a combat situation until he escalated things.

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This is not how reality works. It was a combat situation the minute the E88 arrived on site. The minute they caused a distraction. It was a fight as soon as two opposing sides met. Unless you're going to tell me the Cold War was a whole lot of concern over absolutely nothing, in which case I couldn't care less about your opinion on the matter.

Spoiler: JayBA

He didn't justify Armsmaster's actions. He explained what Armsmaster's thinking was. He didn't say it was the right way to think.

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Justifying actions isn't just about proving you were right, it's about explaining how you arrived at the choices you made. How your thinking and experiences determined the actions you took. If he's explaining what Armsmaster's thought process for the whole event came about, that's justifying Armsmaster's actions. Not 'justifying so this makes them right', justifying why he did the things he did.

And that's what happened:

He made the decision he did because he decided that removing the empire's healer and her body guard was worth the added risks in a strategic sense.

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He's said "Armsmaster made a decision to perform these actions because his thinking made him believe that removing them was worth it.". That's the justification for his action, right there, in plain text. That's what happened. That's the fic. Armsmaster made a choice based on what he knew and took action in response to the conclusions he came to.

That's how people function in life.

And your whole 'things change' foolishness is ridiculous. That can be used to justify practically anything, and is worthless as a reasoning tactic. "We shouldn't start a war with China", "things change so we should start a war preemptively". Thats nonsense.

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Firstly, that's how people use it in real life. That's literally how the police use it to justify a variety of things, like preemptive searching, forfeiture, and shooting. "I saw that the situation was this, but was concerned that the situation may become that, so I performed these actions to reduce the likelihood.". Hell, that's how you decide to empty the damn garbage before the bag gets too full. We spend our adult lives recognising that the world isn't static, that things change all the time, and we preemptively act to try to achieve the best outcome we can based on what we know.

Secondly, that's not what I meant anyway. You haven't actually quoted anything where I said things change, so I'm assuming you mean this

Armsmaster can't expect that nothing will change, and the capes are the bigger long term issue if practically any part of the situation changes.

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in which the point is that Armsmaster has a responsibility to both himself and those around him to protect them to the best of his ability, and if something goes wrong because he fails to act, it can be just as bad if not worse than if he acts.

Spoiler: kitsune9

Several of your earlier statements seem to be unlikely.

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They were random examples plucked out of thin air. Of course they're unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised if they were all unlikely. They're obviously unlikely. I'm not even sure why you brought that up, except that it really feels as though you're using your whole post to try and belittle me, which comes across as a little funny when you take random examples as earnest suggestions.

But I'll try again. And I'll make it as simple as I can.

Armsmaster has no clue what he's running into. Armsmaster has no idea how bad things could go. Armsmaster has just come from a fight everyone thinks is a diversion put on by the E88 to try and talk to Taylor without being interrupted, so there's blatantly obvious evidence that the E88 are willing to toss at least some sort of effort at this issue.

Therefore Armsmaster's response to anything that happens has to take into account that there are no guarantees, no safeguards, and that anything could go wrong at any moment.

Because he's the first responder, and that job is hard.

We have dismissed this claim.

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If you're using those 'quote' emotes to be sarcastic at me, as I feel you are, you were meant to put them around the word 'claim', not the whole sentence, otherwise you're making fun of yourself for dismissing a claim.

To repeat myself, they're not a claim, they're random examples. Taking them on face value would be silly. Please stop doing that.

It makes a lot more sense for the new cape to have to deal with a recruitment attempt then it does for it to be a diversion to draw in a lone protectorate cape who would already have backup incoming.

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Why? The implication of recruitment attempts in canon is that you either join a gang, or they remove you from the board.

With that being the case, your attitude seems to indicate that you think Armsmaster should assume this will be an easy task for him to deal with when, in reality, there'd be a stronger force at the Hebert residence and they would already be expecting the heroes to try and stop them.

And lets not forget that they're already splitting the heroes attention to get to Taylor. Again, ask why. Why wouldn't they have more capes or gang members ready to intercept or interfere? They've got the numbers to throw at the problem. Why would Kaiser ignore the opportunity to perform multiple tasks at once, especially when they're so complimentary as these would be?

 

[kitsune9]

Words

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If you note the phrasing and the fact that I used the Turian picture. You should realize that i'm making fun of myself even as I disagree with you. It was not meant to offend you, if It did I apologize. I assumed that you would have recognized the mass effect quote and it's background even if you had never played the game. I also assumed you would see it the same way I did.

I don't agree with what your saying but I feel like i'm repeating myself and not achieving anything. Maybe i'll feel better in the morning but for now I think i'm done for the night.

 

[shinkicker444]

There is thing thing called rules of engagement that law enforcement officers follow. The situation he turned up resembles either a hostage situation or a hold up. Charging in gung-ho guns metaphorically blazing is not how to respond. He ignored RoE for glory, someone died. If a police officer did that an IA investigation would be on the cards and he'd be stood down until it was over unless he was shitcanned or charged, and they'd be crucified in the media. AM is in the wrong here. His thought process was hilariously flawed and stupid.

Also, your comparison to school bullies is flawed. As that is nothing like what is going on.

Esit: how the fuck is my "reply to long"? What the fuck sort of checkbox is that...

 

[arromdee]

If you were sitting peacefully in school and a handful of known bullies came over and surrounded you, would you not hope for a teacher to show up and tell them to leave?

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Using the example of bullies doesn't work, especially if you're using Emma and Sophia, because that's a case where 1) we know they are not meeting to negotiate. and 2) we know these particular bullies will initiate hostilities. Gladly would know (or should have known) this. Armsmaster did not.

 

[Skarpien]

Just going to pop in and address your anecdote. A group of bullies surrounding you is not at all equal to a group of bullies offering a team-up to a student council member, then retreating at an acclerating rate. A proper annecdote: during the Cuban Missile Crisis immidiately after Krushchev and JFK agreed to disarm Turkey and Cuba, if Castro just opened fire on the American ships and missed. Wouldn't the US ships also return fire and the fire at the Soviet ships? With reference to the example above, would it make sense for a teacher to chase after the bullies who have not yet engaged and start pummeling them?

They were not yet at any stage of conflict and it was obvious.

 

[aabbcc]

*snip*

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That chain of logic made no goddamn sense at any point of it, and I say this as someone who does not care about this argument.