A Dragon Of The North VII: Gathering Storms
- Thread starter Droman
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Can we ennoble a vassal, or do we need LP/King for that?
If we go with Roote's plan we will gain a half of his former land, and House Featherstone of Lord Harroway's Town sounds pretty nice.
If we go with Roote's plan we will gain a half of his former land, and House Featherstone of Lord Harroway's Town sounds pretty nice.
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Only the LP/King and if the LP does so they still need to be confirmed and accepted by the King. And even if we could, raising a vassal to the same legal standing as yourself is only asking for trouble down the line. There's also the fact that Walda and Yohn may still inherit the Twins. The most appropriate thing to do would be to land him as a knight (or even just make him Castellan) but not as a hereditary position until we know whats going to happen with the Twins.
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Regarding Marriages, since it seems to have started up again after I went to bed last night.
We've just had an Omake where Tywin himself has admitted that House Lannisters fortunes are on the decline, their position is weakening and their influence is disappearing. He also admitted that House Tyrell is on the rise; gaining influence, prestige and greater power.
And despite this people still want to marry the daughter of the cadet branch of the declining House, who brings nothing but money we don't need than the daughter and heiress of the House on the rise?
I admit I don't understand the reasoning...
We know that all Cerenna brings is money we don't really need. She brings no influence, no army (for war or the Others), and in marrying her we would annoy; Ned, who hates the Lannisters; Jon Arryn who's spent so much time minimising them at court; and Robert, who now all but hates them thanks to Cersei and Joffery. The only person who really benefits is Tywin since we strengthen his House's position. We should be looking to strengthen our own.
Basically Tywins trying to buy us and the marriage overwhelmingly benefits him rather than us. I'm not particularly keen on that.
Cerenna may be an interesting character. But from a dispassionate balancing of pro's and con's the only reason she has the value she does is because she's a Lanniaster and unmarried. If Tywin wasn't so desperate to bind us to him she'd be married off to some random, not very important lord. Perwyn mentioned he was in talks with Stafford Lannister (her father) a while ago, which says a lot.
On the other hand marrying Margaery brings prestige, influence and protection, a (I assume) decent dowry, and an army. Perhaps more importantly we deprive anyone else of that army. I don't want to go to the Wall to fight the Others and return only to discover Oberyn managed to convince Mace to wed Margaery to Aegon. After all he already has the Golden Company, Dorne and Sellswords.
I especially don't want to find her married to Joffery, because it would give him protection that may stop us getting justice for Mya...
We've just had an Omake where Tywin himself has admitted that House Lannisters fortunes are on the decline, their position is weakening and their influence is disappearing. He also admitted that House Tyrell is on the rise; gaining influence, prestige and greater power.
And despite this people still want to marry the daughter of the cadet branch of the declining House, who brings nothing but money we don't need than the daughter and heiress of the House on the rise?
I admit I don't understand the reasoning...
We know that all Cerenna brings is money we don't really need. She brings no influence, no army (for war or the Others), and in marrying her we would annoy; Ned, who hates the Lannisters; Jon Arryn who's spent so much time minimising them at court; and Robert, who now all but hates them thanks to Cersei and Joffery. The only person who really benefits is Tywin since we strengthen his House's position. We should be looking to strengthen our own.
Basically Tywins trying to buy us and the marriage overwhelmingly benefits him rather than us. I'm not particularly keen on that.
Cerenna may be an interesting character. But from a dispassionate balancing of pro's and con's the only reason she has the value she does is because she's a Lanniaster and unmarried. If Tywin wasn't so desperate to bind us to him she'd be married off to some random, not very important lord. Perwyn mentioned he was in talks with Stafford Lannister (her father) a while ago, which says a lot.
On the other hand marrying Margaery brings prestige, influence and protection, a (I assume) decent dowry, and an army. Perhaps more importantly we deprive anyone else of that army. I don't want to go to the Wall to fight the Others and return only to discover Oberyn managed to convince Mace to wed Margaery to Aegon. After all he already has the Golden Company, Dorne and Sellswords.
I especially don't want to find her married to Joffery, because it would give him protection that may stop us getting justice for Mya...
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I do not want to destabilize the realm and I think a marriage to Margery makes this too likely.
Also Cerenna gives us an truce with Tywin yes but it also gives us the potential of a real alliance with Tirion who is already a freind once Tywin dies.
Also I do not want to make the Tyrells more powerful because I do not trust them.
Politically for the stability of the realm it would be best if the Lannister's stopped losing influence even as the Tyrells's stooped gaining it.
Going for Margaery will anger a lot of people. Robert got his plans for using her to stabilize the Seven Kingdoms and I doubt, even with how close Jon has gotten with him, he will appreciate Jon going in and fucking up those plans for what seems to be a naked power grab. Because it will look like Jon is gearing up to go for the crown. Jon with a dragon and Harrenhal is one thing. Jon with these 80,000 troops people seems to believe he can do whatever he wants with is another. Really even married or not they will either believe the others are coming and help or think Jon and the North is crazy and ignore it.
Then there is Tywin, we know from the omake that he is not an enemy of Jon or rather he dont want to be. We go in and start fucking up his plans for the sake of fucking them up and he will change to an enemy. This might make him swing towards that Jon is the dangerous one between Viserys and Jon. Dropping a faceless man on him to remove a problem.
Heck Renly seems to be behind strengthening ties between the Reach and the Crown, we want him as an enemy to for fucking up his plans? Cersei and Joff is about to be marginalized and we seem to be aiming to replace them for some reason.
Can we not mess with people for the sake of messing with them. Might be optimistic but leaving it to Robert, Arryn and Renly to fix what they can and getting married to the Lannister to finally settle that bloody children spat that Cersei and Joff started and we might not see a large civil war.
Then there is Tywin, we know from the omake that he is not an enemy of Jon or rather he dont want to be. We go in and start fucking up his plans for the sake of fucking them up and he will change to an enemy. This might make him swing towards that Jon is the dangerous one between Viserys and Jon. Dropping a faceless man on him to remove a problem.
Heck Renly seems to be behind strengthening ties between the Reach and the Crown, we want him as an enemy to for fucking up his plans? Cersei and Joff is about to be marginalized and we seem to be aiming to replace them for some reason.
Can we not mess with people for the sake of messing with them. Might be optimistic but leaving it to Robert, Arryn and Renly to fix what they can and getting married to the Lannister to finally settle that bloody children spat that Cersei and Joff started and we might not see a large civil war.
I especially want her to marry Joffrey. That marrige would gurantee peace for a few years and keep Westeros unified against all invaders.
Margaery doesn't bring an army unless we try to take the throne. And she probably brings less influence because we have far less leverage with the Tyrells. She is the more prestigious choise, yes, but that doesn't matter much as we are a dragonriding dragon.
Cerenna brings us influence with the Lannisters and a shitload of gold. She's also going to be much more loyal than Margaery. She's also far more interesting choice than Margaery.
Margaery doesn't bring an army unless we try to take the throne. And she probably brings less influence because we have far less leverage with the Tyrells. She is the more prestigious choise, yes, but that doesn't matter much as we are a dragonriding dragon.
Cerenna brings us influence with the Lannisters and a shitload of gold. She's also going to be much more loyal than Margaery. She's also far more interesting choice than Margaery.
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Nonsense. By marrying her we stop her being married to; Renly, who might still push for the throne himself; Aegon, who definitely will and Joffery who will absoloutely try to take the throne by war if Robert passes him over.
No such thing, Tywin will turn on us the second it suits him regardless of who we're married too. And Tyrion is already a friend and ally, marrying Cerenna does nothing to chance that.
Based on what?
Not really. Removing Margaery as a potential wife for anyone else dramatically decreases the amount of trouble they can cause. I even said this in my post.
... How exactly will Tywin know we 'fucked his plans for the sake of it'? We get to use meta-game knowledge. The characters in the story don't. For all Tywin will know Jon went to a tourney, fell for a girl and tried to marry her. Big deal. Yes other people have plans, none of them know we know them.
We have no idea what Renly's plans are. All we know is that whatever it is it's made Jon Arryn suspicious so quite possibly not good.
Yes, lets just let everyone do what they want and not bother trying to influence things ourselves using the meta knowledge we have to steer things towards a better end...
No, Cerenna brings the Lannisters influence through us. Yes she brings a lot of gold but it's not needed. And she'll be more loyal? What exactly is this based on?
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unknown_xho
YOU'RE NOT FUNNY
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I'm blanking on who the Prophet could be. Any ideas?
Joff cannot be passed over. The only way he is going to be made ineligible is to sent him to the Citadel/Faith/NW or just straight up killing him.
If we do not marry Cerenna we declare ourselves an enemy of house Lannister so Tirion's personal friendship s not going to matter we can kiss that western alliance goodbye and all that gold too.
If Marge marries Jon (again I do not think Mace will do it unless we gave some indication that we are willing to take the throne) the Tyrell's may try to assassinate Tommen so as to create a sufficiently difficult succession to force Jon's hand into declaring for the throne. That is they may borrow from the Littlefinger school of intrigue for the sake of fomenting chaos and then trying to ride the wave using Jon.
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This guy, from the Dragonsworn mob that tried to get into the Red Keep.
Vesvius
The Wicked God
Alright, I don't have enough time right now to type the full post I was thinking of (it would involve research), but I'm strongly against most of the pro-Margaery points raised for the following reasons:
1. The Tyrells are no better then the Lannisters. Canon has shown many examples of that. The only real difference is that their Tywin, Olenna, isn't officially in charge.
2. Yes, Tywin doesn't see us as anything more then a piece on a board. But so does everyone else, with the possible exception of Bro Bobby. He just happens to be saying it in omakes.
3. If we do get Margaery, that's no guarantee Tyrion would fail at the rest of his negotiations. So we might end up related to Cersei. For those of you arguing that marrying a Lannister would open us up to more Cersei shennanigans, there's no promise that this won't do the same.
Finally, and most importantly IMO:
4. Cerenna and Desmara are on the table. They have been offered, and all we have to do is reach out and take em. Margaery has not. Who knows what we'd have to do to get a betrothal option? Seducing her won't work. That would take away all the benefits of marrying her. I honestly have no idea what we could offer the Tyrells for her hand that wouldn't completely fuck us over in the long run.
EDIT: Off topic. Just saw that quote. Masema? Really, Droman?
We're going to need to murder that dude good.
1. The Tyrells are no better then the Lannisters. Canon has shown many examples of that. The only real difference is that their Tywin, Olenna, isn't officially in charge.
2. Yes, Tywin doesn't see us as anything more then a piece on a board. But so does everyone else, with the possible exception of Bro Bobby. He just happens to be saying it in omakes.
3. If we do get Margaery, that's no guarantee Tyrion would fail at the rest of his negotiations. So we might end up related to Cersei. For those of you arguing that marrying a Lannister would open us up to more Cersei shennanigans, there's no promise that this won't do the same.
Finally, and most importantly IMO:
4. Cerenna and Desmara are on the table. They have been offered, and all we have to do is reach out and take em. Margaery has not. Who knows what we'd have to do to get a betrothal option? Seducing her won't work. That would take away all the benefits of marrying her. I honestly have no idea what we could offer the Tyrells for her hand that wouldn't completely fuck us over in the long run.
EDIT: Off topic. Just saw that quote. Masema? Really, Droman?
We're going to need to murder that dude good.
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King's can name whoever they want as their heir. Yes the tradition is for the firstborn son to take that place but they can be disinherited at will. And since Robert hates Joffery and Jon Arryn has been shown as activly working towards that end one way or another it's going to happen.
There is no alliance. Marrying Cerenna gives the Lannister additional influence. It doesn't mean they're on our side, it doesn't mean they'll support us. Tywin specifically said the marriage was solely about... It's to their benefit not ours.
This is random speculation with no basis in anything we've seen in the story. Even if Tommen died Renly would be the heir. Renly, who the Tyrells are close with.
Despite what the TV show would have you believe Mace and Margaery do have more than one though in their heads...
*Look as with I wrote* Ah I mean that we ooc seem to be doing it for the sake of fuck Lannisters and the rest, get those troops and for Tywin it will be that Jon character that has been plagued by trouble for Cersei and Joff being turned into someone messing with Tywin and Lannister plans.
Jon Arryn is not really the paragon saint of plans and intrigue either.
Thats the thing your view of a better end seems to be ´aim for the civil war and chaos full steam ahead the crown is ours´. Marrying Marg is not going to stabilize shit as everyone is going to see that Jon Stormcrown boy gathering power and try to do something about it. It is down right the option leading to war and claiming the crown.
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I'm not saying they're better people. I'm saying the marriage is in every way better for us.
Absolutely, but again that's not what I said. I said Tywin see's this as a way to gain influence (and it would) but it doesn't gain anything for us besides money (which we don't need). Margaery on the other hand benefits both us and the Tyrells.
Cersei is in Willias's league because he's crippled. If he's not, she's not. Problem solved.
Yes, and Cerenna will stay on the table from now until the end of time given how desperate Tywin is. Having to put in effort isn't a reason not to do something...
Died in the fire I believe.
Whether we want it or not a war is coming. Aegon is going to cross the Narrow sea with the support of the Golden Company and Dorne. The Dornish plan is to marry him to Margaery and get the support of the Reach. I'm saying it's much better for her to be married to us than any of the other options.
And we've proven a loyal servant of Roberts since he knighted us. No one with any sense is going to think we're about to turn on him.
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That's where we step in. If we can show the Tyrells how bad Joffrey is, how the Lannisters are desperate for the marriage in order to stay relevant, alongside us being our charming self, I can definitely see us persuading them not to go royal.
Hahaha, no. Joffrey will never be the King. Either Tywin, Lord Arry or us will kill him before he takes the throne. And I wouldn't particularly care if Renly took the throne after BBB died.
And marrying Margaery won't stop the Tyrells from turning on us the moment it suits them. They need us less than the Lannisters, so they are even likelier to betray us. She would happily poison us if she could then marry a king.
This is a strange argument. The can ally with whoever they choose even if we wed Margaery.
Marrying Margaery will not stop the war, but her marrying BBB, Joffrey or Tommen might.
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Or they'll marry to Joffrey and poison him like in canon, then just betroth Margaery to Tommen.
Joffrey is never going to get the throne, in fact now that we have the evidence and power to do it he won't even be getting out of OldTown.
Anyway we're like a stones throw away from owning the Throne, Jon's 'father' has the North, Robb is heir to the North, Bran has the Riverlands, Arya will likely marry Tommen and become Queen, the Vale is strongly allied with him and Jon has been spending a lot of time working with Arryn and is likely going to become the next Hand.
With all that a marriage with Marg is certainly not out of the question and will bring the Reach, at that point our weakest ties will be with the Lannisters and Baratheons but since Tommen is a Baratheon prince related to the Lannisters there's less chance they'll fight it. Of course that doesn't include the Iron Isles and Dorne but no one likes those guys anyway.
Essentially at that point we'll basically be King in everything but name once Robert dies and the only likely problems will be Renly who could definitely cause trouble if he finds out Tommen is a bastard and Tywin who will likely be trouble regardless so it might be prudent to have a mysterious bird mysteriously scratch him with poisoned talon while controlled by a mysterious mage (Yohn).
Anyway we're like a stones throw away from owning the Throne, Jon's 'father' has the North, Robb is heir to the North, Bran has the Riverlands, Arya will likely marry Tommen and become Queen, the Vale is strongly allied with him and Jon has been spending a lot of time working with Arryn and is likely going to become the next Hand.
With all that a marriage with Marg is certainly not out of the question and will bring the Reach, at that point our weakest ties will be with the Lannisters and Baratheons but since Tommen is a Baratheon prince related to the Lannisters there's less chance they'll fight it. Of course that doesn't include the Iron Isles and Dorne but no one likes those guys anyway.
Essentially at that point we'll basically be King in everything but name once Robert dies and the only likely problems will be Renly who could definitely cause trouble if he finds out Tommen is a bastard and Tywin who will likely be trouble regardless so it might be prudent to have a mysterious bird mysteriously scratch him with poisoned talon while controlled by a mysterious mage (Yohn).
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Again, unless we can bluff our way and say that if Joffrey dies then Tommen won't be available for Marg.
With Cersei gone and Joff about to be marginalized or removed why is it so bad for the Tyrell´s to go royal? Heck IC Jon the royalist that he is should be supporting it. Robert, Tommen and Renly are not bad people compared to the alternatives.
unknown_xho
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I'd like some examples later. The Lannisters have done some pretty deceitful shit in recent history in canon: the Tysha gang rape situation, ordering murder of members of the previous royal family including children, sacking KL using deceit, cuckolding a king, attempted murder of a kid for witnessing cuckolding, using more deceit to end a war (The Red Wedding). I'm sure there are other things I'm missing. The Tyrell's assassinated Joffrey, but Joffrey was a shit. I'm probably looking at this through Tyrell tinted glasses, but they are far from equal in terms of shitty deeds to the Lannisters.
Yeah this is true. But I have no problem with this.
If we succeed in a betrothal to Margaery I doubt the Tyrell's would marry Willas to Cersei. The friction between Jon and Cersei has to be known by them. And interactions with the Tyrells will probably give us a chance to heal Willas, which would raise his desirability for other betrothal options.
True. Desmera and Ceranna are guaranteed successes. But with Margaery comes: the backing of another LP, the setback of Tywin's plan, even more strengthening of our status, and it's own sizable dowry. Let's get to The Reach before dismissing the chances of a Margaery betrothal.
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And how do they know this? Tywin is specifically trying to get her married to Joffery. If I were the Tyrells that would suggest to me that Tywin intends to back Joffery regardless of the current situation.
.... I'm wondering where you're getting this characterisation from.
Of course they can. But if Margaery is already married they're much less likely to support Aegon. Because, no Queen.
Nothing can stop the war. All we can do is try and minimise the damage by making sure people aren't on the side of our enemies. And while we're at it, why not try and make sure we get the best possible deal from the situation?
*Edit - Marrying her to Joffery will mean we can't get justice for Mya because they'll protect him. The crown might not be their sole though, but once they have an in of course they'll protect it.
Marrying her to Tommen would be fine, but I'd prefer her married to us and Tommen married to Arya to re-affirm the North's link to the realm.
Marrying her to BBB will lead to more chaos and turmoil than any other option.
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