2024-AT-14: Staff and The Zombie

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The Zombie

The Zombie

I'm still feeling my feet around here, but I've been infracted ostensibly under "Rule 5 - don't make [Staff's] jobs harder" for

For context, the conversation that led to my ban (formatting may be shagged as I cant edit / quote from that thread at the moment, cheers for that shinaobi)
The Zombie said
Too true. Especially considering how actual nazi and descendants of nazi collaborators hold a choke on Ukraine government and its people indoctrinated. Modern ukranians force fed adopted racial propaganda what they are superior to russian orks. And neonazi battalions are promised two russian slaves for each warrior after the victory.
I suspect what modern Ukraine joyfully join nazi Germany in trying to enslave Russia

BTW the thing what Ukraine was a core member of USSR and half of them is fluent russian speakers are the reasons to war in Donbass and Crimea leaving for Russia. This is literally part of USSR Fall Civil War erupting later than Wars on others parts of USSR periphery. Example for such Wars is Azerbaijan/Armenian war which has happened recently and briged glory to Bairaktar drones

P.S. will be a whole of Ukraine territory ISOTed? Including parts currently liberated by russian forces and 300 thousands strong russian army? If so, then USSR will also get access to modern level tech and there is a lot of Isekai fiction about similar situations in russian internet.
P.P.S. BTW that russian armies divisions... some of them have tactical nukes. Just in case. It's part of official doctrine. And they can deliver them to Berlin in 15 minutes using tactical missiles Iskander. There is at least one big nuclear plant in russian controlled territory. There is 17 others in ukranian. This whole cituation can turn into Fallout timeline really really fast
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The Zombie said

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKG-kbKeIo

I doubt that the country that elected a man of jewish heritage to its Head of State (and suffered its share of pain at the hands of the Nazis) would suddenly align with Nazi Germany. Sure, you probably have some Nazi sympathisers here and there (like most places do, like the plague they are) and some history going back 80 years where local anti-soviet forces saw working with the Nazis as a better alternative to Stalinist authoritarianism, but that doesn't make their descendants in modern Ukraine a Nazi state.

Don't forget that Wagner itself had people like Dmitry Utkin within their leadership, who were themselves unironic Nazis with the fucking SS bolts:


You're either stupid, yet another vatnik troll, or just outright stoned on the mushrooms grown in United Russia's fecal compost.

Unless of course, I should start calling you a Stalinist / Tsarist / whatever the fuck your ancestors from X century ago were doing or associated with.
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Centeregg said

Yeah, do you remember what even in Nazi Germany was Jewish people who worked for nazi?
And Zelensky is actor, he will say what he is paid for. And he was initially hired to become president by ukranian oligarchs profeeting from reselling NATO weapons
And looking at modern Israel and genocide of Palestinians, I can't believe what the argument of yours are working anymore.
And whole whole of Ukraine suffered from nazi occupations, the Western Ukraine which before the war started was part of Poland for decades birthed many willing nazi collaborators such as Bandera and they was so cruel as part of SS whatbthey actually horrified german nazi leaders.
Now Bandera is pushed as The Hero of Ukraine and streets of ukra Ian cities are named after his friends and one of survived ukranian nazi collaborators was applauded by Canadian parliament. This faking 1984

Sorry, let us not continue this, or I will be banned again
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The Zombie said

Sorry, but I feel I have to speak up against what is either propaganda, willful ignorance and/or stupidity.

Is calling out the Israel > Gaza situation supposed to be whataboutism? Jesus christ, I've never supported that situation, and bringing it up has no relevance here. And for the record I think that while Hamas definitely provoked this and need to shoulder equal blame (because let's face it, staging mass attacks on Israeli soil, killing/abusing/kidnapping civilians and taking them back to Gaza doesn't take a fucking strategic savant to know it will provoke a response) but I can also recognise Israel is basically washing its hand of any responsibility and in many respects created the conditions for Hamas to exist.

Let's entertain for one minute the conspiracy theory that Zelensky was paid / funded by the oligarchs, and that there is a lobby in Ukraine and the West profiteering from this (and yeah, there probably is like with any war / military industrial complex)

How does this justify Russian invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation? I'm sorry, I didn't realise Ukranian troops were trying to kick in the door to Moscow. Or the various documented war crimes - bombing civilian targets, rape and torture of civilians, mass graves, deportation of Ukranian children to Russia, forcing people to take Russian citizenship and so on? Bucha is one example, if you really want I can pull the sources out of my ass, but here's a few. And there's footage from multiple reliable sources (both professional and amateur) that make this verifiable.
www.bbc.co.uk

Ukraine conflict: 'Russian soldiers raped me and killed my husband'

The BBC has uncovered first-hand evidence of Russian soldiers raping and killing civilians in a village west of Kyiv.
www.bbc.co.uk
www.bbc.co.uk

What is a war crime and could Putin be prosecuted over Ukraine?

The ICC wants President Vladimir Putin arrested for war crimes, but South Africa may not cooperate.
www.bbc.co.uk
www.bbc.co.uk

War in Ukraine: Street in Bucha found strewn with dead bodies

A reporter entering Bucha, near Kyiv, counts at least 20 bodies of men, one with his hands tied.
www.bbc.co.uk
www.bbc.co.uk

Ukraine war: Hundreds of graves found in liberated Izyum city - officials

More than 400 bodies are thought to be on a site in the city which Russia occupied, officials say.
www.bbc.co.uk

Yeah, there were Nazi collaborators who worked towards the independence of their respective nations. It's a complex issue that many still haven't really got the nuance to face or understand. That doesn't make the independence of these nations = those nations are Nazis.
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The staff post in the thread.

The text of the rule in question:
Rule 5: Don't Make it Harder For Us to Do Our Jobs
Our staff - from moderators to administrators - are all volunteers. Don't do anything that makes what they do more difficult or that causes trouble for Sufficient Velocity that we then need to invest time and effort into cleaning up.
  • Don't create multiple accounts without staff permission.
  • Don't encourage other users to break the rules.
  • Don't argue with the staff about the rules, or a staff decision, in a thread;
  • Don't file reports in bad faith;
  • Don't use Sufficient Velocity as a launchpad for something that might be an issue elsewhere.
  • Don't mark Sufficient Velocity emails as spam
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I don't see my post as a violation of this rule - or how it made anyone's job harder, it just seems like a needlessly heavy handed response on shinaobi's part. I'd said my point, I was done.

As for why I posted the above: I saw disinformation, posted in a thread that I authored and used my prerogative to try and combat that. because I didn't want any association with it. I've known the odd person who has lived in or hailed from Ukraine (along with a couple over the border in Russia). and it really fired up to see blatant whataboutism being perpetuated to either deflect or justify the behaviour of the Rusian state / military (because I am capable of understanding Russians = / = Russian State & Military Apparatus) which has been found almost universally across most of the international community to constitute war crimes / human rights violations.

How this made the staff's job harder I don't know, I simply saw disinformation and countered it with facts. It wasn't a tangent. It wouldn't have been continued after, and when Centeregg PM'd me to say he had family living in the Donbass I told him I had known people who lived near there and that it was absurd to suggest Ukraine was a Nazi state.
 
Information: Ruling
  • Staff Post
    • Hi, The Zombie, I will be the arbitrator handling your appeal.

    The relevant part of Rule 5 is "Don't argue with the staff about the rules, or a staff decision, in a thread." Whether or not you agree with Shinaobi that the line of conversation was a tangent, he clearly directed the thread to drop the subject. And it's not like you were partway through posting when the staff post was added and only noticed Shinaobi's post later; every version of your post begins with specifically quoting the staff post and explaining that you are going to disregard it.

    It isn't relevant that you didn't intend to continue with any further posts or that it's your thread or really any other factor besides this basic problem: a moderator told you to stop doing something and you explicitly did the opposite. This is not something we can accept from users on a board this large without moderation becoming largely ineffectual and meaningless. Your goal here was very sympathetic, but that's not enough to make this a sustainable position for us.

    There are avenues for dealing with the problem that aren't directly disagreeing with the staff post in thread. Shinaobi highlighted them in the infraction notice (which you should be able to revisit by visiting your profile and looking for the 'Infractions' tab):
    If you have objections to staff decisions or policy, use the Ask A Private Question forum, reach out to the Council, or approach a member of Administration or one of the Directors. Don't simply defy a direct instruction.
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    In the future, stick to these avenues, and there shouldn't be a problem.

    ruling
    Upheld.


    If you want to dispute this ruling, you have seventy-two hours to appeal again to the Council. Those Tribunals are generally made public afterwards and are described in detail here.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • As per @Datcord 's guidance I am requesting this go before the Council/Tribunal process. To quote the rule:

    Rule 5: Don't Make it Harder For Us to Do Our Jobs
    Our staff - from moderators to administrators - are all volunteers. Don't do anything that makes what they do more difficult or that causes trouble for Sufficient Velocity that we then need to invest time and effort into cleaning up.
    • Don't create multiple accounts without staff permission.
    • Don't encourage other users to break the rules.
    • Don't argue with the staff about the rules, or a staff decision, in a thread;
    • Don't file reports in bad faith;
    • Don't use Sufficient Velocity as a launchpad for something that might be an issue elsewhere.
    • Don't mark Sufficient Velocity emails as spam
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    To repeat / rephrase my earlier argument:
    I did not, and still do not see my post as a violation of rule5. It was not my intent, nor do I feel that my actions made the staff team's job any harder. I do not feel that I argued with staff, acted in bad faith, or otherwise tried to stir up trouble.

    The only "tangent" I could see shinaobi referring to was Centeregg posting blatantly offensive propanda / disinformation in my thread that I authored and, and I felt that it was acceptable (and not harmful) to use my prerogative to try and combat that, because I didn't want any association with it. I acted in good faith, and thought it appropriate to try and combat whataboutism being perpetuated to either deflect or justify behaviour which has been found almost universally across most of the international community to constitute war crimes / human rights violations, and felt that my post did not breach any of the rules. Again, I still fail to see where this mandated / warranted staff action against me, or justified a 25 point infraction.
     
    @The Zombie - Per the Council's request, Tribunals are operating on a ten (10) day cycle to allow for thorough consideration and discussion, always beginning on a Friday and ending on a Monday. As such, this Tribunal will be opened on .

    Thank you.
     
    I just want to amend my appeal to reflect a 2nd 25-point infraction / temporary suspension I have received, for what is essentially just referring to the post. Again, rather disappointed that staff felt any action was necessary here, as I was not continuing the argument and simply wanting to frame the kind of whataboutist propaganda that was floating about in a thread where one particular party (The Russo-Ukrainian War Thread) have been heavily employing those tactics and how disappointing it was to see. I didn't argue with anyone, there was nobody to argue with. Again, I fail to see how this make's any staff member's job more difficult!
     
    The Zombie said:
    I just want to amend my appeal to reflect a 2nd 25-point infraction / temporary suspension I have received, for what is essentially just referring to the post. Again, rather disappointed that staff felt any action was necessary here, as I was not continuing the argument and simply wanting to frame the kind of whataboutist propaganda that was floating about in a thread where one particular party (The Russo-Ukrainian War Thread) have been heavily employing those tactics and how disappointing it was to see. I didn't argue with anyone, there was nobody to argue with. Again, I fail to see how this make's any staff member's job more difficult!
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    Having gone through the appeal process this has been rolled back following a transparent explanation from the staff team, so will remove this matter from the equation.
     
    Information: Tribunal opened for discussion
  • Staff Post
    • tribunal opened for discussion @Council,

    You have been asked to give your opinion on this appeal. Per Council's request, you will have ten (10) full days to render a decision on this matter, until . Before that time, you should vote to Uphold, Overturn, Reduce, or Increase the infraction.

    The arbitrator and infracting staff member - @Potato Anarchy and @shinaobi - are entitled to participate in the discussion, as are the appellant and their advocate if they chose to engage the services of one.

    I would like to remind all participants of a few things:

    First, a Tribunal is not a debate. The Tribunal is being asked to decide whether the appellant's infraction should be upheld. It is a discussion of the appellant's behavior, not a place to re-litigate the merits of a debate that the appellant was having or discuss the behavior of other users who might have been involved.

    Second, the entire Tribunal will be made public at the end of the discussion unless there is a good reason for it not to be released. If the appellant or any other participant has an opinion on whether it should not be made public, they should present that during this period.

    Third, the purpose of Tribunals is to both decide whether an infraction should be upheld and also to provide the Staff guidance on the Council's opinions on the rules and policies of Sufficient Velocity. Councillors represent the regular users of SV, and your discussion helps shape the Staff's efforts to apply, enforce, and interpret the rules in the future and identify areas where things can be improved.

    Please comport yourself accordingly.

    After ten (10) days, this Tribunal will be closed to discussions on the infraction and there will be a two (2) day period for the Administration to raise potential policy issues and for the Council to briefly discuss those issues before it is made public.

    Thank you.
     
  • Staff Post
    • While I am sympathetic about the argument that started this - certainly someone repeating Russian propaganda and justifying the invasion of Ukraine is not something I would want in my threads either - this does seem like a fairly clear violation of rule 5.

    To clarify, the bullet point list in the rule text is not exclusive. It is entirely possible, even likely, that users will violate the clear intent of a rule in a way that does not fall inside one of the explicit examples. The important question is whether or not the behaviour under review makes it harder for SV staff to do their job, and I think this one certainly qualifies.

    SV cannot be moderated effectively if users feel free to just ignore explicit staff directives. If you disagree with said staff decisions - and god knows I have more than once - there are proper channels to raise such complaints and bring them to the attention of the wider staff and the council. Nothing about this appeal convinces me that this essential point has been substantively argued, so I feel confident in saying:

    Uphold.
     
    Maugan Ra said:
    While I am sympathetic about the argument that started this - certainly someone repeating Russian propaganda and justifying the invasion of Ukraine is not something I would want in my threads either - this does seem like a fairly clear violation of rule 5.

    To clarify, the bullet point list in the rule text is not exclusive. It is entirely possible, even likely, that users will violate the clear intent of a rule in a way that does not fall inside one of the explicit examples. The important question is whether or not the behaviour under review makes it harder for SV staff to do their job, and I think this one certainly qualifies.

    SV cannot be moderated effectively if users feel free to just ignore explicit staff directives. If you disagree with said staff decisions - and god knows I have more than once - there are proper channels to raise such complaints and bring them to the attention of the wider staff and the council. Nothing about this appeal convinces me that this essential point has been substantively argued, so I feel confident in saying:

    Uphold.
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    To be clear, it was not clear to me that I was not allowed to respond. As I said in my earlier post, I thought the "tangent" referred to the poster who seems to have a history of posting these propaganda / talking points on the forums, and felt my actions did not cause harm or violate the spirit of the forum. It was also a thread that I authored, and I felt I had the right to post as such on my own thread.
     
    I'm sympathetic to the desire to stop someone from pushing Russian propaganda here, but when a mod tells you to stop, you stop.

    [X] Uphold.
     
    I'm sympathetic to pushing back against such posts, but ignoring an explicit instruction not to continue after the matter has already been handled does make the job of moderators harder and violates rule 5. Unfortunately, I have to uphold.

    [X] Uphold.
     
    As distateful as the post he was responding to, this is still a straight Rule 5 violation.

    [X] Uphold.
     
    I understand the idea of being able to post what you want in the thread you author, but it is still subject to site rules and the staff post was fairly clear from my perspective. Even with what the other person was posting the rule is pretty clear here.

    [X] Uphold
     
    Honestly, given this was your first real offence, if you hadn't actually quoted the mod, I'd be inclined to call for a reduction. But this is, plainly - and knowingly - in violation of rule 5 on the face of it. Not much way about that.

    Uphold.
     
    There's a level of response to even bad posts that is simply beyond the boundaries of the rule. The rules don't exist to punish the wicked and reward the righteous, they exist to preserve the health of the forum. This was simply in excess of what we're willing to see in response to even Russian propaganda. The correct action would have been to report and either move on or reply more reasonably.

    [X] Uphold.
     
    Unlike other councillors, I am not sympathetic to the desire to reply to the obvious troll, because the mod already removed them from the thread and the infracted post directly follows the modpost announcing so. The user isn't even arguing they didn't understand the instructions, they're doubling down on the idea that they had to answer, which they very clearly didn't, the problem being solved already.

    [X] Uphold
     
    Sorry, but while SV gives threadmakers lots of tools to take care of their threads, the ability to ignore staff directives is sadly not one of them, despite my protests about how funny it would be if it were.

    [X] Uphold
     
    I definitely understand being fed up with trolls and wanting to have the last word, but like, come on, the troll was already gone, it was empty posturing for like farming at that point.

    [X] Uphold
     
    Information: Final vote tally and subsequent action New
  • Staff Post
    • final vote tally and subsequent action @Council,


    I'd like to thank you for your contributions to this Tribunal. With the discussion and voting period over and thirteen (13) of the Council registering a vote, the unanimous decision was to Uphold the infraction.

    As such, the infraction will be Upheld as-is. Per standard Tribunal procedure, we will now have two (2) days for any relevant discussion (policy, Tribunal, or otherwise) to brought up by the Directors or Administrators for consideration. At the end of this period, this Tribunal will be published per usual.


    Thank you.
     
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