2024-AT-09: Staff and Mandemon - Upheld

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Mandemon said:
I am wondering if I should express how much actual dog whistling I am hearing with the arguments here.
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You probably shouldn't.

I mean, obviously the fact that you clearly do not have the same understanding of what the term means that others do means it is impossible for you to comply with instructions that you stop using them. And pointing out examples of what you think dog whistles are would be helpful in getting on the same page about what it actually is you are supposed to stop doing.

But for that to work, people would need to believe you honestly don't understand already, and you would need to go into it with the goal of learning what they are trying to tell you to stop doing instead of the goal of trying to lash out at them or the goal of providing they're using the term wrong.

So, I would stand by my advice of you probably shouldn't.
 
Mandemon said:
Well, I am now glad to know that this board holds gender is assigned on birth, instead of persons of own feelings.

Because that is how all this reads to me. That if if you are assigned gender on birth, but later in life experience gender dysphoria, you are not allowed to identify with the gender you feel comfortable with.

Because that would be self-identification, and self-identification is a dog whistle. You need doctors statement to be able to express or identify other gender(s).

Essentially, denial of self-identification reeks to me "gender = sex"
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Unless you are specifically singling out trans women, there is no need to say self-identified women. Because trans women are women. You were not being a trans ally by using that phrasing, you were highlighting difference in a context where that difference wasn't the point of your post. This is such an immature response.
 
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Mandemon said:
Well, I am now glad to know that this board holds gender is assigned on birth, instead of persons of own feelings.

Because that is how all this reads to me. That if if you are assigned gender on birth, but later in life experience gender dysphoria, you are not allowed to identify with the gender you feel comfortable with.

Because that would be self-identification, and self-identification is a dog whistle. You need doctors statement to be able to express or identify other gender(s).

Essentially, denial of self-identification reeks to me "gender = sex"
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Mandemon, I don't think you're a very clever person, but there is no way you're actually this stupid.
 
Mandemon said:
Essentially, denial of self-identification reeks to me "gender = sex"
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I am astounded that this is what you're falling back to when there are actual trans women, including the same trans women who witnessed you editing in your "self identified" bit into your first post and who were the target of the mockery that got you your infraction, in this very thread.
 
FruitSyrup said:
I am astounded that this is what you're falling back to when there are actual trans women, including the same trans women who witnessed you editing in your "self identified" bit into your first post and who were the target of the mockery that got you your infraction, in this very thread.
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...what.

I did not edit it in, it was originally there. Care to actually provide evidence that I had edited in my post in some grand conspiracy move? This is a second post that claims I am some sort of grand mastermind who setup all this in advance.
 
i don't think you're a grand mastermind.

i do think when half a dozen transpeople tell you it's a dogwhistle for you to come out and go "SV is transphobic because of what these transpeople told me" is acting like a smug cunt.
 
I had originally indented to simply using "women" and "men", until learning that some participate were trans.
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I'm going to assume good faith, but a general principle is that—since trans women are women, and trans men are men—you don't need to use different language. 'Women' includes trans women by default, 'men' includes trans men by default. That you saw this and felt a need to broaden your language to be inclusive shows you need to work on accepting some language as inclusive already; not insinuating anything about your beliefs, just that the idea that 'women' means cis women and 'men' means cis men by default has too much purchase in your brain. You've just gotta ignore that feeling and just trust talking about trans people as you would talk about anybody else is fine.

This reminds me of seeing people saying we should move to 'womxn' to include trans women, as if 'women' didn't do that already. Well-intentioned, probably, but silly at best and discomfitting at worst.

(Also some people wouldn't always consider their gender to be what one identified as at the time? Like, in retrospect, I can confidently say I was a girl even before I started identifying as a girl; I identified as a boy, I incorrectly thought I was a boy. This intuition seems to be common but certainly not universal. So gender is a bit more of a mess than just 'self-identification', anyways.)

My short take is that even with the best intentions if you say a thing and it makes people go eesh, ew you kinda gotta stop saying the thing. Even if we're wrong and it shouldn't be nails on chalkboard, uh, it is, so. Gotta work with that.
 
SerGregness said:
All the hot water Mandemon is in from using just a dogwhistle
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A dog whistle explicitly targeting a heavily persecuted minority demographic.
SerGregness said:
If the thread this all came from had its sides switched, if we had men telling women that 'most women hate men', that 'it's pointless to argue with cis women', the literal thoughts in their skulls and lived experiences, that whole side would have been launched into fucking orbit without even a wave goodbye.
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If the thread had indeed been inverted then that would be a case of a patriarchal dunk on a vulnerable demographic, and it would indeed have been launched into orbit because acknowledging basic power disparities is quite pertinent to discussions on this forum. Have you read any feminist literature discussing the experiences of women in public spaces when they are speaking to and spoken down to by men, or is this something you lack...?
 
SerGregness said:
All the hot water Mandemon is in from using just a dogwhistle, imagine if he had up and called someone a smug cunt. If the thread this all came from had its sides switched, if we had men telling women that 'most women hate men', that 'it's pointless to argue with cis women', the literal thoughts in their skulls and lived experiences, that whole side would have been launched into fucking orbit without even a wave goodbye.
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I don't know how to explain to you that things work differently for those with power than for those without it.
 
SerGregness said:
All the hot water Mandemon is in from using just a dogwhistle, imagine if he had up and called someone a smug cunt. If the thread this all came from had its sides switched, if we had men telling women that 'most women hate men', that 'it's pointless to argue with cis women', the literal thoughts in their skulls and lived experiences, that whole side would have been launched into fucking orbit without even a wave goodbye.
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Also out of pure curiosity I clicked the second link.

"I remain sceptical of cis liberal men who have self-selected spaces absent of the misogyny common to masculine behaviour in a general sense who then deny this kind of behaviour is not cultivated in the mainstream."

Weird, it's like she actually explains a take you can agree or disagree with.
 
SerGregness said:
All the hot water Mandemon is in from using just a dogwhistle, imagine if he had up and called someone a smug cunt. If the thread this all came from had its sides switched, if we had men telling women that 'most women hate men', that 'it's pointless to argue with cis women', the literal thoughts in their skulls and lived experiences, that whole side would have been launched into fucking orbit without even a wave goodbye.
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Transphobia is worse than using cunt, what? How on earth could you think otherwise?

Also yes, if things were different things would be different, congratulations.
 
SerGregness said:
All the hot water Mandemon is in from using just a dogwhistle, imagine if he had up and called someone a smug cunt. If the thread this all came from had its sides switched, if we had men telling women that 'most women hate men', that 'it's pointless to argue with cis women', the literal thoughts in their skulls and lived experiences, that whole side would have been launched into fucking orbit without even a wave goodbye.
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"just" a dogwhistle

lmao come on
 
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I'm all for lenience in most circumstances, but I think the Council erred in not reversing the reduction in this instance. The lack of remorse and blatant attempts at obfuscation make it clear that the appellant is knowingly spreading hate speech on the forum and relying on his low-quality smokescreen to get the benefit of the doubt on appeal.

The impulse to maintain the reduction is understandable generally, and I'm not trying to cast blame or target anyone (except the two Councilors who showed their asses defending him; that was pathetic and worthy only of derision) but for someone with such a total absence of remorse or self-reflection, I think the higher initial point total was completely merited.

Next time, I guess.
 
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SerGregness said:
All the hot water Mandemon is in from using just a dogwhistle, imagine if he had up and called someone a smug cunt. If the thread this all came from had its sides switched, if we had men telling women that 'most women hate men', that 'it's pointless to argue with cis women', the literal thoughts in their skulls and lived experiences, that whole side would have been launched into fucking orbit without even a wave goodbye.
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I would normally try and provide a detailed contextual explanation of what those quotes actually say but you caught me on a bad day so fuck off with your smearing two friends and a member of my department with your out of context gotcha games
 
SerGregness said:
All the hot water Mandemon is in from using just a dogwhistle, imagine if he had up and called someone a smug cunt. If the thread this all came from had its sides switched, if we had men telling women that 'most women hate men', that 'it's pointless to argue with cis women', the literal thoughts in their skulls and lived experiences, that whole side would have been launched into fucking orbit without even a wave goodbye.
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Wow, imagine if instead of being transphobic, he had simply suggested we live under patriarchy instead. Real double standard between these two completely comparable things.
 
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Under the circumstances, I can sorta see why mandemon felt the need to be so defensive.

Perhaps SV should have a recommended reading list for learning de-escalatory posting skills.
 
Fey'lya said:
It's my understanding that SV doesn't require or expect Councilors to recuse themselves -- if they have direct knowledge of the incident at hand, all the better, especially when contrasted with the others. And if they do end up using their position to hammer people they disagree with, they can be voted out next term!
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We have at various times considered recusal for councilors, but we decided that it wasn't something we were prepared to enforce, and so it's kind of fallen entirely into disuse. I think there are good arguments pro and con, but it is what it is.
 
SerGregness said:
All the hot water Mandemon is in from using just a dogwhistle, imagine if he had up and called someone a smug cunt. If the thread this all came from had its sides switched, if we had men telling women that 'most women hate men', that 'it's pointless to argue with cis women', the literal thoughts in their skulls and lived experiences, that whole side would have been launched into fucking orbit without even a wave goodbye.
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Most men hate women. We live in a patriarchy, a societal form built around the hatred of women to maintain and uphold its power structures.

It is also a number of other types of hatefully oppressive, but misogyny was the thing being discussed in the thread, so it was the thing I talked about.
 
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FruitSyrup said:
A dog whistle explicitly targeting a heavily persecuted minority demographic.
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Love Train said:
"just" a dogwhistle

lmao
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To clarify, I'm not trying to excuse transphobia, more referring to the linguistic masking. "Holy shit what if he had been as blunt as calling someone a smug cunt is". The tribunals regularly hit people for less than that. Not trying to excuse Mandemon, but do two wrongs make a right here?
 
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RadiantPhoenix said:
Under the circumstances, I can sorta see why mandemon felt the need to be so defensive.

Perhaps SV should have a recommended reading list for learning de-escalatory posting skills.
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SV rules don't work that way. You don't get a free pass to say what you want just because you believe other people are also being unreasonable. The best de-escalatory technique is called taking a break instead of continuing to argue. No amount of recommended reading will change the fact that sometimes the best thing to do is log-off.
 
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