Suppose the City of Constantinople on the eve of the Final Siege is sent back in time to 431 BC...
1453 AD Constantinople sent back to the Peloponnesian Wars
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Suppose the City of Constantinople on the eve of the Final Siege is sent back in time to 431 BC, at the outbreak of the Peloponnesian War. How does the city influence the surrounding conflict and greater Greece itself over time? How would technology diffuse? How do the classical polities see this newfound stranger?
Its bringing along with it thousands of years of innovations, and the city is small enough at this time (well, 50,000 is basically the same size as Sparta) that it won't be a total curbstomp in the way as bringing the city of its heyday a few centuries back would be.
Its bringing along with it thousands of years of innovations, and the city is small enough at this time (well, 50,000 is basically the same size as Sparta) that it won't be a total curbstomp in the way as bringing the city of its heyday a few centuries back would be.
xa na xa
A.E.I.O.U. - Antarticae est imperare orbi universo
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They go back to Rome.
They tell tales of a future world spanning empire, drawing enthusiastic crowds on the Forum Romanum.
Many years of war later after the spread of the prophecy, a coalition of Samnites, Etruscans and Greater Greeks raze the city, put all the population to the sword, and ritually salt the ruin fields.
"καταστρέψτε τη Ρώμη"
- famous quote from Tarentum politician and philosopher Archytas, known for ending every speech with it.
Virian
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That seems excessive... Like extremely so... Also wouldn't Constantinople conquer the other greek states nearby before they went into the ritualistically burning kingdoms phase?
floppy_seal99
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Been here for a while. Yea Renovations dead; this is just an idea that popped up. Not really trying to write anything.
Several things spring to mind:
Knowledge of gunpowder and direct experience of its use in prosecuting sieges quickly This changes the strategic dynamic dramatically as the local art of war was to put it mildly, primitive in that respect.
Much better horse stock and a lot of experience in use of mounted troops. They may not have many in the city at that point but the better blood stock would be priceless.
Stirrups are useful but not essential for useful shock cavalry. Alexander managed without.
Potential for and institutional knowledge for a trained, drilled and professional army with professional officers, unlike the usual greek army which was, with the exception of the spartans, a milita with limited tactical options.
Warship technology, naval artillery and greek fire.
The framework to organise at more than a city-state level along with a bureaucracy to do so, albeit autocratic.
Effects of christianity in a pagan milieu, from a social cohesion and unifying aspect.
Even in its decay, the institutional splendour of the byzantine court and its power to overawe others.
Silk?
Unlike pretty much everyone else, with the walls of theodosius intact and the great chain allowing fishing, and farms inside the walls, the ability to withstand a siege pretty much indefinitely with minimal defenders leaving the field army free.
History books to show to others: "You mean i/they do WHAT???"
An extra 2000 odd years worth of disease evolution.
A ministry of barbarians to hire mercenaries or bribe whole tribes to cause trouble for your enemies.
A Master of Offices and 'postal service' experienced in spying.
That is my first thoughts anyway.
It would be interesting.
Knowledge of gunpowder and direct experience of its use in prosecuting sieges quickly This changes the strategic dynamic dramatically as the local art of war was to put it mildly, primitive in that respect.
Much better horse stock and a lot of experience in use of mounted troops. They may not have many in the city at that point but the better blood stock would be priceless.
Stirrups are useful but not essential for useful shock cavalry. Alexander managed without.
Potential for and institutional knowledge for a trained, drilled and professional army with professional officers, unlike the usual greek army which was, with the exception of the spartans, a milita with limited tactical options.
Warship technology, naval artillery and greek fire.
The framework to organise at more than a city-state level along with a bureaucracy to do so, albeit autocratic.
Effects of christianity in a pagan milieu, from a social cohesion and unifying aspect.
Even in its decay, the institutional splendour of the byzantine court and its power to overawe others.
Silk?
Unlike pretty much everyone else, with the walls of theodosius intact and the great chain allowing fishing, and farms inside the walls, the ability to withstand a siege pretty much indefinitely with minimal defenders leaving the field army free.
History books to show to others: "You mean i/they do WHAT???"
An extra 2000 odd years worth of disease evolution.
A ministry of barbarians to hire mercenaries or bribe whole tribes to cause trouble for your enemies.
A Master of Offices and 'postal service' experienced in spying.
That is my first thoughts anyway.
It would be interesting.
The spartans were ALSO a militia my friend
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If the Spartans were militia, then the Roman army was also a militia. There's a difference between "citizen-soldier" and "militia".
There was a significant qualitative sifference between the spartans and their neighbours.
One other thing the byzantines would have over everyone else would be a better, more developed economic model, both private and public with the ability to generate wealth and float loans.
The Spartans cultivated a martial myth, but they were never not the exact same sort of militia of the rest of Greece. They had no standing army ever, and indeed only rarely mustered their leisure class to battle, though when they did they were generally better than other Greeks by virtue of... using basic formations which other Greek cities disdained in favor of running at the enemy in a disorganized mass. The byzantines would roll over Greek armies of this period.
And, yes, the Roman army was often a militia. Rome didn't have a substantative standing army until the principate, and even that isn't a standing army like you'd imagine a modern one
Nods. It is a case of 'which' roman army? The early hoplite city state army? The velite/hastati/triarii army that fought Carthage? The marian/caeserian army? The early principate? Later principate and patrician army where heavy cavalry started to dominate, belisarian? Thematic?
The Roman army, and you could include the byzantine forms as they thought of themselves as Romans even though the language of administration and command shifted to greek, , covers 2000 odd years of evolution, devolution, new management and new enemies.
frozenchicken
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I feel like this was half a step from being a Trojan War joke.
.....We've figured out who the Sea People are! Time-travelling Byzantines! It all makes sense now!
Spartakrod
Judeo-Spartacist Bolshevik-Kabbalist
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The Spartans got destroyed in a fight they had a two to one numerical advantage in by "general crushes Sparta with one weird formation; Laconites hate him!" and 300 gay boys.
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floppy_seal99
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Pretty much this. Once Epiminondas and the rest of those guys figured itbout as far as proper formations went, Soarta was kinda fucked. There's a reason Sparta would not have been able to take Athens mano-a-mano, having a shit navy is shit for you. Not a matter of simply being an uptimer either, Athens really only lost by throwing away their advantages in needless campaigns of overreach and diplomatic arrogance.
Spartakrod
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And the Byzantines are probably going to be familiar with the battle of Leuctra. They're going to repeat the same trick and utterly demolish the Spartans who have no reason to not use the standard formation. And Sparta's social structure means that one sufficiently harsh blow is enough to permanently cripple them as a power.
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I thought Sparta beat Athens in the Peloponnesian War because of their excellent naval commanders? I don't really understand the need to shit on Sparta's navy, considering it was able to beat the Athenians, who were the premier naval power of the time.
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They beat Athens because Athens made a bunch of dumb decisions, most notably the decision to send a huge armada to Syracuse that ended up costing them 200 ships, along with all of the sailors and soldiers sent with said ships. Even then, Athens managed to hold on for quite long afterwards.
Also the Spartans were being bankrolled by the Persians and their infinite treasury. That helped a lot.
anbd that the persians hated them way more than the spartans and bought sparta (well their allies) a navy
Spartakrod
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The Byzantines are going to faceroll all of greece pretty hard because they already know all the weaknesses of hoplite warfare and there simply won't be enough time to adjust to stop them.
All of Greece dies to 2000 years of accidental biological warfare AKA germs.
What Im curious about is how the byzantines will react to predating Christ or the fact that Israel exists now. Hell, how are the Jews going to react to the diaspora or the fact that one of their own created one of the largest religions in the known world? Will Jesus even be born? Will some byzantines try to be in bethleham to witness his birth?
Maybe the silk road will start earlier?
What Im curious about is how the byzantines will react to predating Christ or the fact that Israel exists now. Hell, how are the Jews going to react to the diaspora or the fact that one of their own created one of the largest religions in the known world? Will Jesus even be born? Will some byzantines try to be in bethleham to witness his birth?
Maybe the silk road will start earlier?
You are right, they'd go a little nutso over Israel, probably a major strategic objective once they establish themselves would be to secure it, and egypt (grain supply).
The game changer with silk itself will be if they have samples of silkworms and mulberry in the city. (It was a state monopoly from the 6th century when the secret and samples were 'acquired') I would assume that the other elements of trade (cotton and spices) would be a thing too, depends on how much of persian tax and markup you mind paying vs going to war over it.
floppy_seal99
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inb4 the leader of the Anti-Roman resistance in Judea is one former carpenter by the name of Jeshua ben Joseph. Yes I'm going there.
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Why would the Greeks die, rather than the Byzantines? 2000 years isn't enough for genetic immunity, so the Byzantines would be at no advantage against different strains of diseases compared to the ancient Greeks.