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Now You Feel Like Number None [Bleach Arrancar Quest]

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Omicron said:
Bankai is a logical progression of a Zanpakuto's release, well-known in Soul Society and treated as a teachable, repeatable feat that is more or less the gateway to Captain-level power. Segunda Etapa is a singular feat displayed by only one character in the entire manga.
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Just because we only see one person do Segunda Etapa doesn't mean it's not a Bankai equivalent. Remember that Bankai has been known to Soul Reapers for thousands of years, and its nature and the ways to achieve it are known and have proliferated. The Arrancars, in comparison, are a much newer organisation who, compared to the Soul Reapers, haven't had nearly as much time to experiment, develop techniques, and pass down traditions.

The fact that Ulquiorra didn't even tell Aizen about Segunda Etapa also serves as an example of how averse Arrancars are to working with each other, so unlike with Soul Reapers, you're not going to find Arrancars working together to test the limits of their abilities. They'll instead all go at it alone, benefiting nothing from the skills, knowledge, and experience of other Arrancars that could help them along the way.

Pandemonious Ivy said:
Visoreds have whatever the fuck Ichigo unlocked against Ulquiorra
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That would be hybridisation combined with Old Man Zangetsu no longer being able to suppress Ichigo's power.
 
[x]Make a detour by Esmeralda's "office" before setting out. She always has her hands on some interesting supplies, and could provide you with useful items for your trip.

[x]Bitter. All your life, you feared to set foot in the mortal world where the shinigami roamed. They have killed your kind for millennia, and now one of them rules over your world. You might not have been devoted to Barragan's rule, but there is something deeply wrong with a shinigami commanding Hollows.

[x]You did in fact serve under Barragan. For years you were a scout in his army. You left because you feared the devotion of the others. You never expected him to think well of you, but he doesn't even remember your name or your mask, and that stings.
 
[X] Hurry back to the gate, where if you're quick enough you can catch the spider-hollow before it gets too far. Riding it, you'll get to your destination much faster (and hopefully back faster as well).
[X] Indifferent. The powerful of this world are akin to passing storms than persons. Whoever rules, rules, and small fries like you simply have to try and make a living under them. The personal character of different rulers do not make them better or worse, but simply different flavors of hurricanes.
[X] You had a friend once, a rarity among Menos. Someone you trusted not to try and eat you and who returned that trust. Then one day, he crossed the wrong line. He offended Barragan somehow, and you saw him aged to dust before your eyes.
 
Andres110 said:
Just because we only see one person do Segunda Etapa doesn't mean it's not a Bankai equivalent. Remember that Bankai has been known to Soul Reapers for thousands of years, and its nature and the ways to achieve it are known and have proliferated. The Arrancars, in comparison, are a much newer organisation who, compared to the Soul Reapers, haven't had nearly as much time to experiment, develop techniques, and pass down traditions.

The fact that Ulquiorra didn't even tell Aizen about Segunda Etapa also serves as an example of how averse Arrancars are to working with each other, so unlike with Soul Reapers, you're not going to find Arrancars working together to test the limits of their abilities. They'll instead all go at it alone, benefiting nothing from the skills, knowledge, and experience of other Arrancars that could help them along the way.
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The problem with assuming that Segunda Etapa is the equivalent with Bankai though, is that it implies that Arrancar are inherently superior to a matched soul reaper. If a Bankai is supposed to be the thing that separates a Captain from a lower ranked shinigami, the wheat from the chaff as it were, then the fact that an Espada is able to push the Captains of SS to any degree without having access to their own bankai means that the moment any of them get their 'bankai' they should be at or above the level of Aizen. After all, a Bankai apparently allows a 5-10x increase in power.

It's better to have Segunda Etapa be a legendary capstone to an ability that spans the entirety of Shikai and Bankai instead, just so that Barragan isn't allowed to Respira the entire fucking world if he takes to training.
 
Extract said:
The problem with assuming that Segunda Etapa is the equivalent with Bankai though, is that it implies that Arrancar are inherently superior to a matched soul reaper. If a Bankai is supposed to be the thing that separates a Captain from a lower ranked shinigami, the wheat from the chaff as it were, then the fact that an Espada is able to push the Captains of SS to any degree without having access to their own bankai means that the moment any of them get their 'bankai' they should be at or above the level of Aizen. After all, a Bankai apparently allows a 5-10x increase in power.

It's better to have Segunda Etapa be a legendary capstone to an ability that spans the entirety of Shikai and Bankai instead, just so that Barragan isn't allowed to Respira the entire fucking world if he takes to training.
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You assume barragan would ever do anything low as training
 
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Andres110 said:
Just because we only see one person do Segunda Etapa doesn't mean it's not a Bankai equivalent. Remember that Bankai has been known to Soul Reapers for thousands of years, and its nature and the ways to achieve it are known and have proliferated. The Arrancars, in comparison, are a much newer organisation who, compared to the Soul Reapers, haven't had nearly as much time to experiment, develop techniques, and pass down traditions.
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The problem is, you're thinking because Segunda Etapa (SE) is equivalent to Bankai, that it should also work like Bankai. Which doesn't really make sense. Hierro and Sonido have their equivalents in Hakuda and Hoho, but they don't really work like them. Tier noticed that in canon, saying that Ichigo was using Sonido in his fight against Grimmjow, not Shunpo. Meaning there's a qualitative difference, even if the end results are still the same (gotta go fast).

Same thing here. SE is equivalent to Bankai in that it grants a massive boost to combat ability and an all-around buff. But who says it has to be trained the same as Bankai, with a separate stat for it? I assume the end result is still the same, with someone with SE being equivalent to a Reaper with Legendary in Bankai. Resurreccions are already pretty powerful; an unsealed Starrk is more powerful than fucking Kyouraku (albeit only in Shikai).

IMO, the way I see it, SE is basically the end of the resurreccion tree. Sorta like how Shikai and Bankai is all about communicating with your sword, resurreccion is about communicating between your Plus and Hollow halves. A sealed Arrancar only has access to their Plus powers and need to unseal themselves to regain their Hollow powers (Barragan can't access his time powers without unsealing himself). Resurreccion gives you access to all your powers from both halves of your soul, and higher levels increase the synergy between them. SE happens when your hollow and plus sides are so in-tune, so in sync that there's no difference between the two.

That sounds a lot like Legendary Bankai (which necessitates Legendary Shikai), doesn't it?
 
Extract said:
The problem with assuming that Segunda Etapa is the equivalent with Bankai though, is that it implies that Arrancar are inherently superior to a matched soul reaper.
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In theory, arrancars (at least the artificial ones) are supposed to be inherently superior to soul reaper equivalents. They're supposed to be superior to Visoreds, who are themselves flatly twice as powerful as non-Visored soul reapers when they have their masks on. Arrancars have hollow powers and soul reaper(-like) powers both, while soul reapers only have the latter.

Zhade said:
Resurreccions are already pretty powerful; an unsealed Starrk is more powerful than fucking Kyouraku (albeit only in Shikai).
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Remember that Resurreccion is the return of an arrancar's hollow powers. In other words, it's them regaining the powers they used to have before arrancarisation. Resurreccion isn't a power boost so much as it is a suspension of power sealing. When we, Nemo, enter Resurreccion we're just going back to the same power level (actually it's marginally higher) as we had when we were an Adjuchas.

Starrk was more powerful because Vasto Lordes are, on average, supposed to be more powerful than Captains, and even when Starrk was split between himself and Lilynette, he was still more powerful than the King of Hueco Mundo. Someone with that much power would be a match for Kyoraku by itself, but then there's the fact that he's also rejoining his other half. That's even before factoring in that artificial arrancarisation gives a flat power boost.

In short, it wasn't Resurreccion that made Starrk more powerful than Kyoraku, he was just that damn powerful. (Though artificial arrancarisation did boost him.)
 
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Extract said:
The problem with assuming that Segunda Etapa is the equivalent with Bankai though, is that it implies that Arrancar are inherently superior to a matched soul reaper.
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But they are. Explicitly, even. It's noted when Menos are introduced that they're all at least around Lieutenant-to-Captain level, with Vasto Lords being equivalent to multiple captains. They go out of their way to say that if Aizen could gather eight or nine Vasto Lords, he could wipe out Soul Society.

And then we see them only turn out to be "just" Captain level.

Them being that way because they were actually only using their shikai would be perfectly in line with canon.
 
[X] Hurry back to the gate, where if you're quick enough you can catch the spider-hollow before it gets too far. Riding it, you'll get to your destination much faster (and hopefully back faster as well).
- [x] Give him some proper curtains to keep the sand out. Sand in one's hole is not comfortable.
[x] Write-In: Like A Moth To A Flame: Aizen's gift and Aizen's rule freed you from emptiness, and for that you are bound to him, but you are well aware of what happens to those who get too close and cannot withstand the heat. Your service to him is the tension between need and fear.
[x]You did in fact serve under Barragan. For years you were a scout in his army. You left because you feared the devotion of the others. You never expected him to think well of you, but he doesn't even remember your name or your mask, and that stings.
 
I don't think we should overdo the moth theme, especially since we're an arrancar and thus not bound as tightly to our instincts as a normal hollow.
 
Andres110 said:
In short, it wasn't Resurreccion that made Starrk more powerful than Kyoraku, he was just that damn powerful. (Though artificial arrancarisation did boost him.)
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Feels like we're talking past each other. My point is that just because SE is similar to Bankai, doesn't mean it needs to be trained in the same way. It would make sense for it to be the capstone for Resurreccion. Like, I view a weak Resurreccion as on par with Shikai, with much stronger ones on par with Bankai. SE would then equal Legendary Bankai (although I would have preferred it to be Champion).

Which fits with Arrancars being naturally stronger than Reapers. They only need to raise one stat and they can compete with Master and Champion Bankai.

chocolote12 said:
And then we see them only turn out to be "just" Captain level.
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Don't believe so. Of the three VLs we've seen fight against SS, all of them required multiple captains to be put down. In one of those cases (Tier) they would have won if it weren't for outside interference. Starrk and Barragan only lost due to gimmicks and being teamed up upon. Hell, Barragan tanked a nuke to the face and was barely damaged, while Starrk could absolutely kill Kyōraku in a 1v1 match (and I would bet even with his Bankai).
 
Zhade said:
Feels like we're talking past each other. My point is that just because SE is similar to Bankai, doesn't mean it needs to be trained in the same way. It would make sense for it to be the capstone for Resurreccion. Like, I view a weak Resurreccion as on par with Shikai, with much stronger ones on par with Bankai. SE would then equal Legendary Bankai (although I would have preferred it to be Champion).
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This doesn't make good sense from a mechanics standpoint. Your idea on Resurreccion being capable of being on par with both Shikai and Bankai I can accept, but what you're saying about Segunda Etapa makes it nothing more than fluff for high-level Resurreccion rather than something truly different, which by all rights it should be.
 
Andres110 said:
This doesn't make good sense from a mechanics standpoint. Your idea on Resurreccion being capable of being on par with both Shikai and Bankai I can accept, but what you're saying about Segunda Etapa makes it nothing more than fluff for high-level Resurreccion rather than something truly different, which by all rights it should be.
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Oh no, I was thinking Resurreccion would end at Master and SE would cover both the Champion and Legendary ranks. But QM said no to that, so now I'm thinking SE would be a Legendary Trait, although a much more powerful version.

And I don't think SE is something truly different. I know one data point is inconclusive, but Ulquiorra's SE was pretty much his Resurreccion, but overcharged. He didn't showcase any new attacks or abilities. Well, he grew a tail, but that's pretty much it. So, I'm assuming all SE would be like that; overcharged Resurreccions.

As an example, for us, our SE may be us turning completely into shadow and becoming downright impossible to hit. Along with the standard increases to all our stats. But we wouldn't gain any abilities we didn't already have (although some of our Resurreccion abilities may get an image change and increase in power, like Ulquiorra's lances).
 
I think the reason ulquiorra moves in SE weren't that diffrent from normal Resurreccion is because he didn't use it at all beforehand that's the only conceivable way I think he could have hidden it from Aizen, he was just not used to it and didn't have a chance to experiment with it, but that's just my interpretation thougn.
 
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Extract said:
Kubo's explicit statements leave something to be desired. To me, at least. Ghost Mexico already benefits from the numerical advantage of being the 'natural' afterlife and thus not needing outside interference to progress into, and then they get the superior entities?

He undermines his own world by claiming that there's a superior sort of creature that could destroy SS if enough are gathered, then makes that number appear. Then, because that isn't enough, he claims that these are actually super versions of these godly destroyers.

Then he realizes that there's no way the "good guys" of his world should have the slightest chance against these guys, especially when the head captain won't face them. So he hands out some plot armor to some shinigami, weakens some Espada, makes some more have personality traits that scream "kill me! I won't acknowledge you as a threat!" and makes sure that his super-duper special character that may or may not have the fabled arrancar bankai only faces the protagonist.


And suddenly we're all disappointed.
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Kubo's statements on how the world works =\= Kubo's execution of anything

Tl;dr: Ichigo beat Kenpachi what
 
[X] Hurry back to the gate, where if you're quick enough you can catch the spider-hollow before it gets too far. Riding it, you'll get to your destination much faster (and hopefully back faster as well).
[X] Indifferent. The powerful of this world are akin to passing storms than persons. Whoever rules, rules, and small fries like you simply have to try and make a living under them. The personal character of different rulers do not make them better or worse, but simply different flavors of hurricanes.
[X] You had a friend once, a rarity among Menos. Someone you trusted not to try and eat you and who returned that trust. Then one day, he crossed the wrong line. He offended Barragan somehow, and you saw him aged to dust before your eyes.
 
[x]Make a detour by Esmeralda's "office" before setting out. She always has her hands on some interesting supplies, and could provide you with useful items for your trip.

[x]Bitter. All your life, you feared to set foot in the mortal world where the shinigami roamed. They have killed your kind for millennia, and now one of them rules over your world. You might not have been devoted to Barragan's rule, but there is something deeply wrong with a shinigami commanding Hollows.

[x]You did in fact serve under Barragan. For years you were a scout in his army. You left because you feared the devotion of the others. You never expected him to think well of you, but he doesn't even remember your name or your mask, and that stings.

Andres110 said:
That would be hybridisation combined with Old Man Zangetsu no longer being able to suppress Ichigo's power.
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Didn't Tōsen pull the exact same thing against Komamura ? Thus proving that was a Vaizard capstone ability ?
 
Zaratustra said:
Didn't Tōsen pull the exact same thing against Komamura ? Thus proving that was a Vaizard capstone ability ?
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He did. Though it might be worth noting that in Ichigo's case he still had Tensa Zangetsu when he went into his hybrid form whereas Tosen's Zanpakuto disappeared. Maybe it's because Tosen became a Visored through the Hogyoku, or maybe it was because Ichigo's inner Hollow was also his Zanpakuto. Could've been something else entirely. There's potential for original lore building there.

Zhade said:
Plus and Hollow halves
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The way I understand it, Arrancars are Hollows/Soul Reapers, not Hollows/Pluses. Fullbringers are Hollows/Pluses.
 
[X] Hurry back to the gate, where if you're quick enough you can catch the spider-hollow before it gets too far. Riding it, you'll get to your destination much faster (and hopefully back faster as well).
- [x] Give him some proper curtains to keep the sand out. Sand in one's hole is not comfortable.
[x] Write-In: Like A Moth To A Flame: Aizen's gift and Aizen's rule freed you from emptiness, and for that you are bound to him, but you are well aware of what happens to those who get too close and cannot withstand the heat. Your service to him is the tension between need and fear.
[x]You did in fact serve under Barragan. For years you were a scout in his army. You left because you feared the devotion of the others. You never expected him to think well of you, but he doesn't even remember your name or your mask, and that stings.

Might just be me being picky, but if we're gonna compare gaming styles then our resureccion probably resembles Bloodborne's deft, rapid movement more than Dark Souls's flailing desperation.
 
[X] Hurry back to the gate, where if you're quick enough you can catch the spider-hollow before it gets too far. Riding it, you'll get to your destination much faster (and hopefully back faster as well).
- [x] Give him some proper curtains to keep the sand out. Sand in one's hole is not comfortable.
[x] Write-In: Like A Moth To A Flame: Aizen's gift and Aizen's rule freed you from emptiness, and for that you are bound to him, but you are well aware of what happens to those who get too close and cannot withstand the heat. Your service to him is the tension between need and fear.
[x]You did in fact serve under Barragan. For years you were a scout in his army. You left because you feared the devotion of the others. You never expected him to think well of you, but he doesn't even remember your name or your mask, and that stings.
Manic Dogma said:
Might just be me being picky, but if we're gonna compare gaming styles then our resureccion probably resembles Bloodborne's deft, rapid movement more than Dark Souls's flailing desperation.
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What's the difference between the Dark Souls 3 dodging and the Bloodborne dodging? I don't have a PS4, so I don't have Bloodborne.
Omicron said:
A girl, and you actually have normal human proportions, not a super deformed artstyle look. This isn't actually a Hollow Knight/Bleach crossover, a dedicated group of players have just taken the references and ran with them :V
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To be fair, it's in the hopes that we'll be able to develop our powers along the lines of those references as well, in as much as we can whilst under the limitations of not actually being a video game character.
 
Andres110 said:
The way I understand it, Arrancars are Hollows/Soul Reapers, not Hollows/Pluses. Fullbringers are Hollows/Pluses.
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Soul Reapers are Pluses. There's really no difference; Soul Reaper is more a term of office than a different spiritual being. A Plus, if they had the potential, could learn Kido, Hoho and Hakuda without ever touching a Zanpakuto. Remember Ganju? And don't forget, Zanpakutos are just tools, not innate spiritual weapons like an Arrancar's sword.
 
[x]Make a detour by Esmeralda's "office" before setting out. She always has her hands on some interesting supplies, and could provide you with useful items for your trip.

[x]Faithful. Aizen freed you from the hunger, and for this you will forever be grateful. Not only do you owe him loyalty, he's also proven himself to be infinitely resourceful and clever, and the best chance for Hollows like you is under his direction.

[x]You did in fact serve under Barragan. For years you were a scout in his army. You left because you feared the devotion of the others. You never expected him to think well of you, but he doesn't even remember your name or your mask, and that stings.
 
Andres110 said:
He did. Though it might be worth noting that in Ichigo's case he still had Tensa Zangetsu when he went into his hybrid form whereas Tosen's Zanpakuto disappeared. Maybe it's because Tosen became a Visored through the Hogyoku, or maybe it was because Ichigo's inner Hollow was also his Zanpakuto. Could've been something else entirely. There's potential for original lore building there.
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Considering Tōsen outright stated he would demonstrate the superiority the powers granted be Aizen over the powers granted be being a shinigami ? I would say the most likely answer is that he didnt keep the Zanpakuto because he didn't want to.
Wich to be fair would fit under the theory that the reason was the Hogyoku.
 
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