Cleaning Up After The Ancients (Stargate SI)

As ever in Stargate, the question of what language is being used is passed over.
(I know, very early episodes, they tried to be more realistic, but gave that up as impractical.)

You can assume a 'minute' is long enough to think, and make a decision, but bot as long as you'd like? Maybe a count-down was also being transmitted, on a digital channel, 'off screen'?

Classically, two minutes is as long as someone will wait, without any feedback on how long they're likely to have to wait, or some indication that their presence has been registered?
Actually, I think they tossed the language barrier issue for good after encountering the Nox. Which could probably be justified in-universe because of the Nox ... but was glossed over almost entirely.
As long as we ignore that Teal'c could talk to and understand O'Neill in Children of the Gods, and vice versa.
Maybe Apophis mindraped one the airmen playing cards before leaving, and used some kind of language transfer tech to give English to Teal'c in his capacity as First Prime, in anticipation of a larger campaign on Earth.
Or did something after the airwoman was rejected by Amaunet.
 
Actually, I think they tossed the language barrier issue for good after encountering the Nox. Which could probably be justified in-universe because of the Nox ... but was glossed over almost entirely.
As long as we ignore that Teal'c could talk to and understand O'Neill in Children of the Gods, and vice versa.
Maybe Apophis mindraped one the airmen playing cards before leaving, and used some kind of language transfer tech to give English to Teal'c in his capacity as First Prime, in anticipation of a larger campaign on Earth.
Or did something after the airwoman was rejected by Amaunet.
I (just) assumed it was a classic 'Jim Kirk-ing' - the transport device (Transporter/Stargate) fixes all language issues, which may/may-not include literacy in the local language, auto-magically...
("Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!")

Longer term, whether your skill in your original language has been transformed, or added to, could mean issues. You can now read (and write?) the local language (not a Stargate feature, *cough* Daniel Jackson *cough*), can you still read/write your original language, such as any text you brought with you (or, say, your tech displays/speaks)?

Also, keeping adding new languages, if it's not a transformation process, should that cause mental strain? And, what if there's multiple local languages? Do added languages fade over time, or is the capability removed by transport back (except the meaning of what was experienced)? Are recordings of limited utility? Etc., etc.
 
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I (just) assumed it was a classic 'Jim Kirk-ing' - the transport device (Transporter/Stargate) fixes all language issues, which may/may-not include literacy in the local language, auto-magically...
("Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!")

Longer term, whether your skill in your original language has been transformed, or added to, could mean issues. You can now read (and write?) the local language (not a Stargate feature, *cough* Daniel Jackson *cough*), can you still read/write your original language, such as any text you brought with you (or, say, your tech displays/speaks)?

Also, keeping adding new languages, if it's not a transformation process, should that cause mental strain? And, what if there's multiple local languages? Do added languages fade over time, or is the capability removed by transport back (except the meaning of what was experienced)? Are recordings of limited utility? Etc., etc.
That's the Tardis, not Trek transporters. Trek explicitly had a separate and distinct Universal Translator technology.


I could buy that the Stargates, when properly configured, adding a language pack via remote upload of the most common language(s) used by travelers on the same Stargate network (ie, Milky Way/Avalon is one network, and Pegasus is a separate one). But that's clearly not the case, given the number of worlds where the gate wasn't being used.
But the spoken language translation issue was never taken up again. Except the once - when the Tok'ra borrowed Daniel, because he could speak Goa'uld without an accent and didn't have the naquada trace from a symbiote, and so could impersonate a lo'tar to infiltrate the Council meeting of the High System Lords.


I would say that the Stargates would add, rather than transform, since there's never an issue transmitting communications, or when someone uses a ship for one half of the trip instead of a Stargate. Plus, adding knowledge is going to be a lot easier than transforming knowledge. And a language pack is going to be small enough that it shouldn't cause problems.
 
I would say that the Stargates would add, rather than transform, since there's never an issue transmitting communications, or when someone uses a ship for one half of the trip instead of a Stargate. Plus, adding knowledge is going to be a lot easier than transforming knowledge. And a language pack is going to be small enough that it shouldn't cause problems.
The problem might be that languages tie heavily into concepts, conceptual structures, and (shared) experiences (contexts). When looked at carefully languages are something negotiated, not fixed/static, for a shared purpose, so they are based on utility. (See Witgenstein's 'Language Game'.) So, they've arguably got deep roots in memories, even an individual's 'self model'.

Yeah. it took me a long time to find this out, and rather surprised me. But it made the idea of a 'language pack', as a neat, fixed, thing, which I'd previously thought simple-ish, rather... more tricky. Likely still do-able. I think. But, tricky.

Annoying. :)

(Most drastic? Free mind with installation of language pack in a brain otherwise empty of all but physical reflexes. Yes, it'd be a very simple mind. But, still a mind.)
 
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Can't trick a centuries old ancient, like she tricked shephard
Larrin wasn't exactly bluffing Shepard when she disabled the shields - she actually did disable them, and then the radiation sensors started sounding alarms. I suppose you could make an unprovable argument (either way) that she would have turned the shields back on before a lethal dose (that the Travellers couldn't heal) was delivered.

The problem might be that languages tie heavily into concepts, conceptual structures, and (shared) experiences (contexts). When looked at carefully languages are something negotiated, not fixed/static, for a shared purpose, so they are based on utility. (See Witgenstein's 'Language Game'.) So, they've arguably got deep roots in memories, even an individual's 'self model'.

Yeah. it took me a long time to find this out, and rather surprised me. But it made the idea of a 'language pack', as a neat, fixed, thing, which I'd previously thought simple-ish, rather... more tricky. Likely still do-able. I think. But, tricky.

Annoying. :)
Yeah, the term "language pack" is sounds a lot less complicated than it actually would be.
On the other hand, the Ancient Repository uploaded the Ancient language in addition to all the other knowledge.
And a Stargate would have incredible knowledge and access to anyone going through it.
It would by no means be easy or straightforward - and I'd bet the New Tollana gate wouldn't have that functionality. If the Ancient-built stargates had that capability.
The stargates might have built in universal translators for transmissions through the Stargate as well - the Eurondans hadn't gone through the gate before, but there weren't language issues.


There's no consistently viable in-universe solution, other than possibly the Nox and/or Ascended shenanigans of some kind.
Or something that happened offscreen and wasn't mentioned. Ie, finding or being gifted universal translator tech (and/or Farscape style translator microbes and exposure).
 
Personally I have always had the headcanon that the Stargates do have some form of language function. I imagine that they sample languages from travellers and scans for the most common languages spoken around the gate, then downloads a language pack to travellers going through he gate and provides some direct translation services in say a 100 km area around it.

The reason why the SGC had such problems with languages in the beginning was because their gate was without the DHD and running in emergency mode. It needed to download some update packs from the rest of the network and scan in modern Earth languages before the translation function properly started up again.

Of course, these 'language packs' would mostly only provide the simple and literal layers of a language, and translation of written language would be hit-and-miss, which means that it still would be necessary to have linguists like Daniel around. Their job would now be to sort out all the 'literal vs. figuratively' and 'I understand what you say but not what you mean' problems that crops up.

In this scenario the gate teams would probably soon learn to adapt their language and word choices to avoid misunderstandings. Possibly there is a whole style of exploration-cant that develops. A style which runs a delicate balance between being horribly blunt and direct enough to avoid misunderstandings but still diplomatic enough to not sound rude or demeaning, and it would avoid standing expressions like the plague.

I could just see how Daniel ends up holding seminars to all the teams about which words and expressions that never should be used offworld, unless you actually wants it to be taken literally. Expressions like 'fuck me!' or anything involving 'motherfucker' would definitely be on a list of 'Things Gate Teams Are Not Allowed To Say'...
 
One of the reasons I always liked Lorne was that he seemed as geeky and as ready to play as the scientists.

The team of Even, Eventus and Rodney works pretty well, imo. They just need a fourth one to form a full team. Zelenka, probably?
 
begin what? Firing? Boarding? Something else?
Retrieving the Navis. :drevil:


But what are minutes?
A unit of temporal measurement invented by the Ancients that they also introduced to Earth upon returning from the Pegasus Galaxy. :lol:


One of the reasons I always liked Lorne was that he seemed as geeky and as ready to play as the scientists.

The team of Even, Eventus and Rodney works pretty well, imo. They just need a fourth one to form a full team. Zelenka, probably?
Lorne's fun, he's just the chill friendly guy who's really good at his job and hates killer robots.
 
Lorne's fun, he's just the chill friendly guy who's really good at his job and hates killer robots.

Also, really good at diffusing someone who was clearly about to do something hasty. I can just feel how Evan wants to do nothing but relax, and maybe tinker on his own projects. Good job there.

Given that Evan's got enough on his plate, Lorne will probably get to command the Enterprise most of the time. Sure you get weird diplomatic things. Like is the Enterprise on loan to Earth, or is Lorne on loan to Atlantis? That's the thing about being in the field though. The goal is to get a job done, not get in a fight about who's in charge.

It's also why Evan's mostly worked so well with the Atlantis expedition. Saving lives, fixing the city, and dealing with the Wraith are in everyone's interest. Which, makes the cannon events of the rescued Ancients kicking the expedition out all the more stupid.
 
not really, it's their home, they have squatters who seem to think that atlantis belongs to them. they were even ready to let them come back later, after some time alone (even if their captain could have been more diplomatic). then the consequences of the expedition's actions struck.
 
I could just see how Daniel ends up holding seminars to all the teams about which words and expressions that never should be used offworld, unless you actually wants it to be taken literally. Expressions like 'fuck me!' or anything involving 'motherfucker' would definitely be on a list of 'Things Gate Teams Are Not Allowed To Say'...
I dunno, that sounds like the kind of thing that O'Neill would make into a checklist
 
Chapter 45 - Flight or Flight Part 2
Chapter 45 - Flight or Flight Part 2​


Holding his head in a hand, Eventus let his eyes bore into the woman on the other side of the screen. "So you're telling me that for the past ten thousand years your people have been running around the galaxy avoiding the Wraith?"

"Yes." The woman, who had confirmed herself as Larrin, said. "And the ships we've been using to do so have begun to break down beyond the point of repair, which is why we need this one."

There were several extreme bits of idiocy in that, and while Eventus wasn't usually the type to openly call that out, in this particular case he felt offended on several fundamental levels. Because if you were going to run away from a problem, you should at least have the decency to do a proper job of it.

Straightening up, he turned his very best disapproving Ancient glare on Larrin. "The closest galaxy to this is roughly nine hundred sixty thousand lightyears from here. And scans of your ship's hyperdrive show your people could have made the journey in a little under twenty years. At which point you would have been completely free of the Wraith because they are tied to the only location they know their food source exists at."

It was one of the big reasons his people had been willing to cede the galaxy to the Wraith instead of wiping it clean in fact. Because as long as the Wraith didn't know where there were more humans, they were functionally a contained threat.

"So no, you cannot have the Navis."

"But–" Larrin began to protest before Eventus cut her off by continuing.

"Of course, if your people wish to request assistance in other ways there are a number of things we could provide from technical assistance to even help in relocating your people to another galaxy."

There had only been ninety three naturally human habitable worlds discovered in the Andromeda galaxy when the gate seeding ships had gone through thirty million years ago. Far below the fourth hundred sixty seven discovered in Pegasus that had led to his people selecting it as their prime relocation choice. But it was Wraith free, had a small stargate network, and the Asgard probably wouldn't mind helping out by towing the Travelers ships there if he asked.

"Never hurts to have friends." Lorne added in. "And I like to think we're pretty good ones."

"You are." Eventus agreed with a nod as his lips twitched slightly in restrained mirth. "Though Rodney's a bit of a work in progress."

"Hey!" McKay protested as he looked up from studying the sensor scans they were taking on the Navis with a put out look on his face. "I'm a great friend to have! My team totally kills it on trivia night."

A number of emotions flashed across Larrin's face in rapid succession before settling on a guarded resignation. "I'm going to need to retrieve my people from the other ship."

Eventus grinned, glad she was being reasonable about things. "I don't see any problem with that. Will an hour be enough time?"

"That will be perfect." Larrin returned as she reached over for something out of sight, cutting the communications link between their ships and leaving them to stare silently at the two ships that were now the only thing in the display.

"Pretty sure she's going to try and screw us over somehow." Lorne offered as the silence began to stretch on.

"Why?" Eventus asked as he tried to figure out what part of their recent conversation with the woman might have led Lorne to that conclusion. "The Navis is in lockdown till someone with the access gene goes over there and we're watching everything they do with a gun larger than their entire ship pointed at them."

"She's desperate." Lorne put forward, studying the ramshackle Traveler vessel for a focused eye. "And I don't think she bought your offer to help."

"What was that about anyways?" McKay interjected in a slightly annoyed tone. "Unless there are stargates there we don't exactly have the transport capacity to move people to Andromeda, and if their ships are all like what these scans are telling me of that one there's no way we'd be able to upgrade their hyperdrives to intergalactic standards."

"There are." Eventus corrected idly. "Stargates in Andromeda I mean. We seeded three hundred twelve mark twos there about thirty million years ago. Most were on planets with the potential to develop non-human life, but a little under a third were worlds humans could live on."

Not that they had expected any life those other worlds developed to reach the point of sapience, but it was better to be safe than sorry that you missed out by skipping over a particular planet during the gate seeding process.

"As to the ships, I was planning to ask the Asgard if they could help out."

"Oh." McKay muttered, sounding oddly disappointed. "I suppose that would… Mark two stargates? Like the ones in Pegasus?"

Eventus shook his head. "No, those are the mark threes. The mark twos would be the same as the ones you have in the Milky Way."

McKay furrowed his brow as a question seemed to occur to him at that. "If those are the second generation stargates, what happened to the first?"

An interesting history question, that he only knew the answer to because he'd spent several years digging around the archives with a desire to know what was really going on with Destiny.

"There were several problems with the first generation stargates relating to wormhole range, ease of use, and durability. On top of that, something happened with the overseeing ship and seeding vessels that caused a loss of access. So in the end the whole galactic seeding idea was put on hold till the mark two designs were ready to implement."

The records he'd found hadn't been particularly clear on the details of just what had happened that had caused the early launch and loss of access to Destiny, but that was somewhat understandable given the details of a failed project likely hadn't been a priority when making sure everything was transcribed to the cityship databases during the Avalon evacuation.

"Looks like they're moving to dock with the Navis." Lorne said as the Traveler ship began to maneuver towards one of the Navis's docking ports.

There hadn't been any small craft or ring systems detectable on the ship when Eventus had scanned it, so that was really Larrin's only option if she wanted to retrieve her people. But given Lorne's words he readied some of their drones for launch just in case.

"Do you want to get your people ready to ring over?" He asked.

"Would make me feel better." Lorne confessed with a nod as he got to his feet. "You too McKay, going to want your big brain to make sure they don't leave any surprises behind."

A torn look flashed across McKay's face before settling on an accepting resignation as he stood up. "Fine. But I'm wearing the power armor."

"Up to you." Lorne returned with a bemused shake of his head as two left the bridge, leaving Eventus alone in the now very empty feeling bridge.


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Author's Notes: Poor Eventus, he's just not used to dealing with the plotty types.

And yes, the math's actually right there, assuming even just Wraith hyperdrive speeds the Travelers could have made it from Pegasus to Andromeda in 20 years.
 
I think collecting and storing twenty years worth of supplies for the trip would be a major problem. Once in the void between galaxies there wouldn't be anywhere to restock.
 
Straightening up, he turned his very best disapproving Ancient glare on Larrin. "The closest galaxy to this is roughly nine hundred sixty thousand lightyears from here. And scans of your ship's hyperdrive show your people could have made the journey in a little under twenty years. At which point you would have been completely free of the Wraith because they are tied to the only location they know their food source exists at."

Yeah. Stargate is one of those settings where "normal" ships' FTL is so incredibly fast, that a society of generational ships plunking in circles around in the Pegasus Galaxy really doesn't make sense. The sense of scale was definitely off, as the later seasons have the major factions all be casually extra-galactic. It's why the Destiny is literally half the observable universe away, being billions of light years from earth, so even a BC-304 with a ZPM would take 80+ years to reach the Destiny.

Worse, the Travelers have been around for ten-thousand years. Why didn't they just leave for Earth with the Ancients? Sure, it would take them 60+ years if the Ancients didn't help at all, but that's peanuts for ships that can stay running for ten millennia without shipyard maintenance.

There's the issue of keeping everyone fed, but you could just retrofit some ships in the fleet for farming, and given they've been operating again for ten thousand years with only MacGyver maintenance keeping things together, in all that time they should have developed a system for that. I refuse to believe they only get their food from foraging. It's not like they could survive off trade alone with planet-side farmers due to the cycles of culling.
 
I wonder if they'll just move their entire crew over to the Navis. After all, Eventus is unlikely to destroy it the way he could easily destroy their own ship, and they'll have a better shot at repelling boarding parties than they would in ship-to-ship warfare. Or so they'd believe since they don't think Eventus is an Ancient that could reactivate the ship's internal security systems to deal with them.
 
it's kinda funny I was just going to ask if you were going to do anything with stargate universe which contrary to most expectations is probably one of my favorite stargate series so imagine my surprise when it came up a couple sentences after I had the thought lol.
 
Yeah. Stargate is one of those settings where "normal" ships' FTL is so incredibly fast, that a society of generational ships plunking in circles around in the Pegasus Galaxy really doesn't make sense. The sense of scale was definitely off, as the later seasons have the major factions all be casually extra-galactic. It's why the Destiny is literally half the observable universe away, being billions of light years from earth, so even a BC-304 with a ZPM would take 80+ years to reach the Destiny.

Worse, the Travelers have been around for ten-thousand years. Why didn't they just leave for Earth with the Ancients? Sure, it would take them 60+ years if the Ancients didn't help at all, but that's peanuts for ships that can stay running for ten millennia without shipyard maintenance.

There's the issue of keeping everyone fed, but you could just retrofit some ships in the fleet for farming, and given they've been operating again for ten thousand years with only MacGyver maintenance keeping things together, in all that time they should have developed a system for that. I refuse to believe they only get their food from foraging. It's not like they could survive off trade alone with planet-side farmers due to the cycles of culling.
My assumption is largely a matter of overconfidence in the early decades, followed by a large issue coming up such as losing access to an/the agriship to the Wraith, and then being stuck playing keep away and being constantly herded by the Wraith.

Like, we know the Wraith are not stupid by any means. I think that once the Wraith found out about the Travellers they probably did something to ensure that they can't just leave because the travellers function as a stability point for human genetics outside of any worlds. Functionally the control group for any problems that may come up.

If you keep the Travelers on the move, keep them away from ever getting near the galactic edge by harassment... eventually something breaks over time. Even given a century of running on the assumption of "outlasting" the Wraith could have burnt away their normal stockpile of high-end supplies.

Given that the ship's current state is functionally a half-eternal maintenance nightmare there is a distinct possibility that their ruling council could not get enough consensus and confidence to agree to which ships would be cannibalized to ensure the twenty year journey would take place.

Largely I would say the Travelers ran into the problem of thinking that once the Wraith stepped down cloning and went into hibernation that they could "inherit" the Pegasus Galaxy, and found out they were dead wrong and go punched so hard they were left into station-keeping for ten thousand years because they can use a grand total of 0% of Ancient technology and likely couldn't survive a failed trip to another galaxy and starting over with finding resources and setting up shop.
 
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My assumption is largely a matter of overconfidence in the early decades, followed by a large issue coming up such as losing access to an/the agriship to the Wraith, and then being stuck playing keep away and being constantly herded by the Wraith.

Like, we know the Wraith are not stupid by any means. I think that once the Wraith found out about the Travellers they probably did something to ensure that they can't just leave because the travellers function as a stability point for human genetics outside of any worlds. Functionally the control group for any problems that may come up.

If you keep the Travelers on the move, keep them away from ever getting near the galactic edge by harassment... eventually something breaks over time. Even given a century of running on the assumption of "outlasting" the Wraith could have burnt away their normal stockpile of high-end supplies.

Given that the ship's current state is functionally a half-eternal maintenance nightmare there is a distinct possibility that their ruling council could not get enough consensus and confidence to agree to which ships would be cannibalized to ensure the twenty year journey would take place.

Largely I would say the Travelers ran into the problem of thinking that once the Wraith stepped down cloning and went into hibernation that they could "inherit" the Pegasus Galaxy, and found out they were dead wrong and go punched so hard they were left into station-keeping for ten thousand years because they can use a grand total of 0% of Ancient technology and likely couldn't survive a failed trip to another galaxy and starting over with finding resources and setting up shop.

I honestly feel like your one post has put more thought into the idea of the Travelers more so than the writers of Atlantis ever did.
 
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