Martin the vote is closed.
To Secure this Beachhead of Worker's Power: A Soviet Union Quest.
- Thread starter Curby
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Noticed and deleted the post
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For future reference you need both your normal vote and the agenda vote in the same post in order for the vote tally to count both. Since you voted for the turn and then made a second post voting for the agenda, it only tallied the latest one.
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The people demand a manual recount.
Sovnarkom Voting Guidelines
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Curby
recovering analytic philosopher, still sensitive
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Confidential Memorandum on Voting
In light of the present disorder and confusion, the Sovnarkom executive committee requests in that in the future, all people's commissars adhere to the following guidelines when voting on agenda items:
1) Votes are to begin with [X], after which, without any spacing, one is to include the name of the agenda item, without any written description of the agenda item included.
THIS shall be considered a correct vote:
[X]The Narodnik Knows the Peasants Best
The following variants shall be incorrect, and in future vote tallies may be summarily voided:
[x]The Narodnik Knows the Peasants Best (Problem: Lack of Capitalization of "X")
-[x]The Narodnik Knows the Peasants Best (Problem: Inclusion of dash)
[X]The Narodnik Knows the Peasants Best: Description of policy (Problem: Inclusion of Description)
2) Plan voting is permitted, but all plans must be denominated in the same format. This means that the precise text of the original plan must be copied. Finally, when proposing a plan, individual items in the plan should adhere to the format outlined in 1).
3) When voting on the inclusion of additional agenda items, please include these in your original vote through the editing mechanism, or delete the previous post, and add the votes to the new one. Failure to do so might lead to the unintentional voiding of some of your votes.
Issued by the Voting Committee of Sovnarkom, September 22nd, 1919
In light of the present disorder and confusion, the Sovnarkom executive committee requests in that in the future, all people's commissars adhere to the following guidelines when voting on agenda items:
1) Votes are to begin with [X], after which, without any spacing, one is to include the name of the agenda item, without any written description of the agenda item included.
THIS shall be considered a correct vote:
[X]The Narodnik Knows the Peasants Best
The following variants shall be incorrect, and in future vote tallies may be summarily voided:
[x]The Narodnik Knows the Peasants Best (Problem: Lack of Capitalization of "X")
-[x]The Narodnik Knows the Peasants Best (Problem: Inclusion of dash)
[X]The Narodnik Knows the Peasants Best: Description of policy (Problem: Inclusion of Description)
2) Plan voting is permitted, but all plans must be denominated in the same format. This means that the precise text of the original plan must be copied. Finally, when proposing a plan, individual items in the plan should adhere to the format outlined in 1).
3) When voting on the inclusion of additional agenda items, please include these in your original vote through the editing mechanism, or delete the previous post, and add the votes to the new one. Failure to do so might lead to the unintentional voiding of some of your votes.
Issued by the Voting Committee of Sovnarkom, September 22nd, 1919
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Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
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comrades, write only in lower case to avoid confusion! do not give in to the temptations of capitalism!
Agenda Committee Rulings on "Department of Technological Acquisition" and "Establishing Collective Ownership of Agricultural Machinery"
New
Curby
recovering analytic philosopher, still sensitive
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I apologize for taking so long with the latest update! It should be out later today. Here are the two agenda committee rulings!
Issue: The Motion to add the matter of a Department of Technological Acquisition to the next Agenda of Sovnarkom
Jurisdiction: Trade and Industry
Verdict: Unqualified Approval
Comment: In light of the present state of Soviet industrial technology, the introduction of such a department under the purview of the Commissariat of Trade and Industry is a prudent idea. Sovnarkom will, however, have to discuss matters of funding and personnel, as well as the priorities and governance of such a new department.
Matvey Skobelev, Commissar of Food and Agenda Committee Member
Alexei Rykov, Commissar of Internal Affairs and Agenda Committee Member
Alexandra Kollantai, Commissar of Social Welfare and Agenda Committee Member
David Riazanov, in his role as Commissar of Trade and Industry
Issue: The Motion to add the matter of Establishing Collective Ownership of Agricultural Machinery to the next Agenda of Sovnarkom
Jurisdiction: Agriculture
Verdict: Rejection with the option for reintroduction.
Comment: At the present moment, the lack of tractors and general disorganization of the Agricultural sector renders such a proposal premature. Typically, Sovnarkom would be willing to discuss establishing a skeleton department of this type in preparation for such a time when there is a greater wealth of agricultural technology. However, the ongoing turmoil in the Agricultural Commissariat leads the Agenda Committee to resist the introduction of any additional measures which could put undue strains on its limited workforce. We therefore determine to table this motion for the time being, while reserving the right to re-introduce it once the affairs of the Agricultural Commissariat are in order.
Matvey Skobelev, Commissar of Food and Agenda Committee Member
Alexei Rykov, Commissar of Internal Affairs and Agenda Committee Member
Alexandra Kollantai, Commissar of Social Welfare and Agenda Committee Member
Note: Vladimir Milyukov, Agriculture Commissar, is currently indisposed.
Issue: The Motion to add the matter of a Department of Technological Acquisition to the next Agenda of Sovnarkom
Jurisdiction: Trade and Industry
Verdict: Unqualified Approval
Comment: In light of the present state of Soviet industrial technology, the introduction of such a department under the purview of the Commissariat of Trade and Industry is a prudent idea. Sovnarkom will, however, have to discuss matters of funding and personnel, as well as the priorities and governance of such a new department.
Matvey Skobelev, Commissar of Food and Agenda Committee Member
Alexei Rykov, Commissar of Internal Affairs and Agenda Committee Member
Alexandra Kollantai, Commissar of Social Welfare and Agenda Committee Member
David Riazanov, in his role as Commissar of Trade and Industry
Issue: The Motion to add the matter of Establishing Collective Ownership of Agricultural Machinery to the next Agenda of Sovnarkom
Jurisdiction: Agriculture
Verdict: Rejection with the option for reintroduction.
Comment: At the present moment, the lack of tractors and general disorganization of the Agricultural sector renders such a proposal premature. Typically, Sovnarkom would be willing to discuss establishing a skeleton department of this type in preparation for such a time when there is a greater wealth of agricultural technology. However, the ongoing turmoil in the Agricultural Commissariat leads the Agenda Committee to resist the introduction of any additional measures which could put undue strains on its limited workforce. We therefore determine to table this motion for the time being, while reserving the right to re-introduce it once the affairs of the Agricultural Commissariat are in order.
Matvey Skobelev, Commissar of Food and Agenda Committee Member
Alexei Rykov, Commissar of Internal Affairs and Agenda Committee Member
Alexandra Kollantai, Commissar of Social Welfare and Agenda Committee Member
Note: Vladimir Milyukov, Agriculture Commissar, is currently indisposed.
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Sovnarkom Meeting Sept. 23: Riga Negotiations, Sverdlov's Gambit, Department of Technological Acquisition
New
Curby
recovering analytic philosopher, still sensitive
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Main Conclusions of the September 16th Sovnarkom Meeting
Notes Taken by Vladimir Bonch-Bruyevich
Notes Taken by Vladimir Bonch-Bruyevich
Sovnarkom addressed several matters of domestic politics ranging from the administrative to the budgetary. Two proposals were made, one for a census, the other for an ambitious agricultural survey. After extensive and at times heated discussions, the Council of People's Commissars determined to move forward with each. The census will be conducted by the Bolshevik Party, which shall employ its extensive youth leagues and activist core to survey the population of Russia, Ukraine, and Eastern Belarus. Over the objections of the Commissar of Agriculture, Vladimir Milyutin, Sovnarkam determined that Maria Spiridinova, the loyalist left-SR deputy, would be best suited to carry forward the agricultural survey. Therefore, in the future the commissariat of agriculture will be subordinated to the executive committee's agricultural department.
Sovnarkom also considered a diplomatic cable from the American Secretary of State, William Borah, and settled on agreeing to a proposed meeting in San Francisco.
Finally, a plan to reform "Little Sovnarkom" was agreed upon, with Yakov Sverdlov being granted a seat on the committee and on Sovnarkom proper, despite the objections of some Mensheviks uneasy with his endorsement of revolutionary terror.
The State of the Revolution
Current Composition of Sovnarkom
Current Composition of Sovnarkom
| Position | Officeholder | Party |
| Chairman | Vladmir Lenin | Bolshevik |
| Head of Council-Administration. | Vladimir Bonch-Bruyevich | Bolshevik |
| Commissar Without Portfolio | Yakov Sverdlov | Bolshevik |
| Commissariat of Foreign Affairs. | Adolph Joffe | Social-Democratic |
| People's Commissariat for Agriculture | Vladimir Milyutin | Bolshevik |
| People's Commissar of Military Affairs | Joseph Stalin | Bolshevik |
| People's Commissar of Naval Affairs | Pavel Dybenko | Bolshevik |
| People's Commissariat for Labour | Julius Martov | Social-Democratic |
| People's Commissariat for Trade and Industry | David Riazanov | Social-Democratic |
| People's Commissariat for Education | Anatoly Lunacharsky | Bolshevik |
| People's Commissariat for Food | Matvey Skobelev | Social-Democratic |
| People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs | Alexei Rykov | Bolshevik |
| People's Commissariat for Justice | Nikolai Kylenko | Bolshevik |
| People's Commissariat for Nationalities. | Sergo Ordzhonikidze | Bolshevik |
| People's Commissariat for Posts and Telegraphs | Lev Kamenev | Bolshevik |
| People's Commissariat for Railways | Victor Nogin | Bolshevik |
| People's Commissariat for Finance | Yuri Lurin | Social-Democratic |
| People's Commissariat for Social Welfare | Alexandra Kollantai | Bolshevik |
| People's Commissar for Local Self Government | Lev Karakhan | Social-Democratic |
Changes
The previous decisions of Sovnarkom have strengthened the executive branch, causing it to grow more powerful. The balance of power is now leaning toward the executive (65/100).
The Left-SR's have grown more powerful! They are now influential 15/100 rather than significant (10/100). As a result, both the Bolsheviks and left-mensheviks are slightly weaker (-2).
According to our intelligence reports, the Germans have finally broken through French lines in their offensive, but are taking much heavier losses than expected. Our analysts now believe that there is little chance this latest attack can win the war, and it might hurt Ludendorff's political position!
Good news, comrades! The Far Eastern Republic, controlled by a coalition of left-socialists, has requested a meeting with us. They are likely on the verge of formally requesting incorporation into our government.
Foreign Policy
Britain is currently led by Bonar Law's Tories, which have the ideology of British Conservatism. Relations are…Poor (25/100)
Germany is currently led by Ludendorff's military dictatorship, which has the ideology of Proto-Fascism. Relations are…Mediocre (40/100)
America is currently led by William Jennings Bryan, governing in coalition with progressive republicans and northern democrats. These have an ideology ranging from technocratic social liberalism to populist industrial democracy. Relations are currently Ambivalent (50/100).
Relations with the Ukrainian Soviet Republic are Good (65/100)
The Ukrainian Soviet Republic's level of autonomy is High (75/100).
Tensions on the western frontier are pervasive (62/100, relations with Germany -3 per turn)
Political
The government's support among the Urban Working Class is…Robust (75/100)
The government's support among the Urban Middle Class is…Middling (50/100)
The government's support among the Russian Peasantry is Weak (30/100)
The standard of living for the Urban Working Class is…Impoverished (25/100)
The standard of living among the Urban Middle Class is…Insecure (35/100).
The standard of living for the peasantry is…Impoverished (20/100)
The power of the Bolsheviks is predominant (48/100)
Among the Urban Working Class, the Bolsheviks are…Beloved (90/100)
Among the Peasantry, the Bolsheviks are…Mistrusted (35/100)
Right now, the Bolsheviks are dominated by the Leninist Center, which holds 75/100 of the party's political capital, ahead of Kamenev's right-bolsheviks (15/100) and the left-communists (10/100).
The power of the Mensheviks is influential (13/100)
Among the Urban Working Class, the Mensheviks are…Trusted (65/100)
Among the Peasantry, the Mensheviks are…Mistrusted (35/100)
Right now, the Left-SR's are acclaimed (80/100) by the peasantry, their power is influential (15/100) and they are Ambivalent (43/100) about the present government!
The balance of power between Sovnarkom and the executive committee of Soviets is leaning toward the Executive Committee (35/100) (Note: If this number exceeds 75/100, leading to sovnarkom dominance, plan voting will be mandated. If it goes below 25/100, leading to executive committee dominance, plan voting will be prohibited.)
Military
The size of the Red Army is mediocre (40/100)
The morale of the Red Army is solid (70/100)
The quality, supply, technological sophistication and training of the Red army is pathetic (15/100)
…Leading to an Army strength (size + morale/quality times .5) of Weak (787.5/5000)
Right now, the Red Army keeps around 70% of its forces in the west, giving us a western frontier strength of 551
The size of the German Army is large (80/100)
The morale of the German Army is waning (35/100)
The quality, supply, technological sophistication and training of the German Army is robust (70/100)
…Leading to an Army Strength of Very Strong (4025/5000)
Right now, Germany keeps around 20% of its forces in the east, giving them a western frontier strength of 805, to which should be added the Austrian Eastern Army Strength of 905, the Western Ukrainian army strength of 150, and the Finnish Army strength of 60, giving a total of 1920.
Right now, the likely result of a confrontation with Germany would be Abysmal (0/100) (Formula: German Army Strength - Soviet Army Strength/10.)
Sovnarkom Meeting on September 16th, 1918
Two new faces grace the September 23rd meeting of the Council of People's Commissars. Firstly, there is Yakov Sverdlov, sitting in a high back wooden chair in his trademark black leather jacket. Despite his diminutive stature, there is something undoubtedly imperious about this figure, who has now, as the general secretary of the Bolshevik Party, head of the Executive Committee, and newly-appointed People's Commissar, accumulated more formal power than Lenin himself. Before him are several stacks of impeccably arranged papers which, if the tales of the man's photographic memory are correct, will not need to be consulted too extensively during the present sovnarkom meeting.
Few would doubt his incorruptible dedication to the cause, but the presence of the man beside him, Varlam Avanesov, raises some worries. Avanesov is a close ally of Sverdlov's - while sovnarkom's previous decision granted Sverdlov the right to appoint a single ally to "little sovnarkom", there was no mention of this appointee sitting on Sovnarkom itself, and it is still unclear whether he is here as an observer or voting member.
Lenin glances briefly at Sverdlov, throwing him a look which is utterly impenetrable to the majority of commissars. He prepares to address the matters of the day, which principally concern the negotiations in Riga, but then Alexei Rykov speaks up…
On the Matter of Varlam Avanesov
"If you will excuse me, Chairmen, I implore us to address the matter of Comrade Avanesov, who I am not aware was given permission to sit on Sovnarkom. If I am correct, only People's Commissars and observers appointed by these commissars through the administrative committee are permitted to sit upon this body. I have no prejudice toward this man, whose work in the executive committee I greatly admire, but I believe we must follow procedure here. Therefore, I propose that we request our good comrade here to vacate this meeting until Comrade Sverdlov has gone through the necessary processes…"
[] Expel the Newcomer: The Mensheviks and several other Bolsheviks insist that we follow the legal procedures, but are careful to express deference toward Sverdlov and his ally. Perhaps this was the purpose of this entire maneuver, to elicit this ritual of supplication and thereby confirm his own position on the council. Sverdlov, who has thus far remained silent throughout this entire ordeal, now speaks up with a preternatural calmness…
[] Sverdlov's Ploy Succeeds: "Good comrades, I sincerely apologize if I failed to adhere to the strict procedures of this body." Sverdlov cracks a small smile, which gravitates in an uneasy place between the sarcastic and the genuine. "My comrade here is not a member of this council, but he is my selection to sit on the Little Sovnarkom committee…I am aware that the decision you reached a week ago did not stipulate that he would be permitted a seat on Sovnarkom, but I believe that he would have some difficulty in the work you assigned him if he was forced to rely on secondhand reports to ascertain our business. Therefore, I have taken him here today, to discuss these matters with you and receive your verdict. I propose we grant him a permanent seat as an observer; this could hardly be detrimental to this body, and I assure you all that any future dearth of seating could be redressed from my own finances…" Several chuckles resound across the hall at this, but they are not sufficient to quell the present tension in the room…
[] Let's All Be Reasonable: Sergo Ordzhonikidze glances at Lenin, who has remained silent, and speaks up. "I believe there is no need for acrimony. Comrade Sverdlov has made an honest mistake, and this should be easy enough to solve. Comrade Avanesov, I am afraid that you cannot currently sit here, but I am sure the rest of us are agreeable to this being decided through the proper channels. Let's make sure the administrative committee takes this up in due time…" Currently, Ordzhonikidze, Stalin, and Kamenev sit on the relatively unimportant administrative committee; these are not allies of Sverdlov, and he will likely be forced to grant them concessions in order for his friend to be given a seat as an observer.
On the Matter of Joint Operations with the German Army
There is palpable relief as the previous matter is settled, and Sovnarkom now moves onto questions that appear, at least on their surface, to be of more immediate relevance to our worker's state. In the past three days, we have received a number of telegrams from Riga detailing the course of the negotiations. On the whole, they have proceeded successfully, with the Germans quite eager to hammer out a deal. Nonetheless, there are now certain decisions which Foreign Minister Adolph Joffe feels he cannot make unilaterally.
The first of these involves the presence of German soldiers upon Soviet soil. Stresemann expressed great interest in annexing the Crimean peninsula and securing a share of the Baku oil, but was skeptical of our intentions to actually fulfill such promises. He therefore proposes that we schedule joint military operations to achieve these ends. This would require us to host German soldiers deep in Soviet territory, though Stresemann assures us that we will be compensated in hard currency for any billeting costs.
[] We've made our bed with the Germans now: None other than Chairman Lenin speaks up to address this matter. "We must make peace with the same fervor as the bourgeois now make war. There is little sense in half-measures now; the British-funded whites are already in disarray, and they are struggling to hold the front in France. They do not have the means to harm us any further, but the Germans may always decide to resume operations in the east. We must secure the strongest peace possible; our troops will learn from the Germans, and in the process we will consolidate our southern flank." (This will significantly reduce relations with the British and the opinion of the left-sr's!)
[] An Absurd Proposal: Despite their eagerness to make peace, several of the mensheviks are uneasy about hosting German troops. They point out that doing so is likely to greatly anger both the British and our internal political opposition. Of course, the Germans might retract their generous offers of territory and a downward adjustment in planned reparations payments if they do not believe we are earnest about reconquering these territories…
[] Let's give them a reason to trust us: Sverdlov comes forward with an unusual idea: if we do not want to host German Troops, why not simply grant them some leverage over us, so they know we have an incentive to capture these territories? Sverdlov contends that the German offers of industrial assistance and capital goods are far less important at the present moment than the cession of Ukrainian territory; we can propose that Germany hold off on granting us this aid until our soldiers have taken back Crimea and Baku. (Note: Going forward with these military operations in the future will moderately reduce the opinion of the British).
On the Matter of Narva
The second issue concerns Narva, the Estonian port city in the Baltics. This area has become a veritable hotbed of unrest, and the Germans, looking to reduce their need for garrison troops and secret police, have been exceptionally eager to return the city to our rightful sovereignty. Narva's port facilities are on the smaller side, though its connection to other cities in the Russian northwest might improve our supply network somewhat, easing issues of food distribution. On the other hand, refusing to take the city back would keep the German busy, and allow us to continue using it as an entrepot to fund reds across the baltics. As Sovnarkom begins deliberating on the matter, several competing proposals arise…
[] Refuse outright: Nikolai Kylenko believes that we should simply refuse to do the Germans the favor of taking back the city; we could, for example, insist that as the Russian Soviet Republic, we have no interest in the incorporation of non-russian lands. Commissar Nogin points out that there is a good chance that the Germans would see this as a disingenuous ploy, which might end up harming relations…
[] Demand Estonia: Sverdlov proposes we demand all of Estonia as the price for taking the city out of German hands. We could explain to the German delegation that we are happy to recognize an Estonian Soviet Republic, but that, in order for it to be legally incorporated into our territory, we will require the remainder of the ethnically Estonian lands. It is doubtful that the Germans will accept this, but it might provide us with a better rationale for refusing to take back the city; however, if they do call our bluff and agree to cede Estonia, we will be forced to occupy Narva.
[] Narva is Ours: Lenin, Kollantai, and Rykov all speak up in favor of simply agreeing to the cession. The Germans have thus far been unusually forthright and amicable in negotiations, and there is no reason to do anything that might alienate them over this comparatively small, "Baltic question".
On the Matter of West Ukraine
The final problem is Ukraine. Our extensive concessions have convinced the Germans to entertain a more lax schedule of reparations payments and the cession of all Ukrainian lands east of Rivne, but they still have certain "security concerns". Stresemann wants assurance that foodstuffs will flow regularly into Germany, and to secure this, has demanded that we permit German troops to be stationed in the ceded Ukrainian territories west of the Dnieper. Though he swears that these soldiers will not be involved in the requisitioning of grain, the intent is clear enough: if we miss payments, the troops will undoubtedly begin looting our granaries. That is not all - he also insists that, in order to ensure the safety of the Galician borderlands, the total number of Soviet troops in the area must never exceed the German presence, a condition that will undoubtedly limit our capacity to establish sovereignty in the area. How should we respond to these quite shocking demands?
[]Call the German Bluff: Commissars Stalin, Kollantai, and Dybenko argue that the Germans are desperate to do away with Petliura's "criminal-nationalist" regime, and contend that we should simply disclaim our interest in the western lands until they are ceded to us "unalloyed by such compromises". By all indications, Ludendorff is quite displeased with Petliura, and if we hold firm here, he might be willing to grant us the territories outright. On the other hand, if we have misjudged the extent of German desperation, we may simply end up provoking their ire with such a gesture…
[]Keep the Deutsches Heer Out: The Germans might have legitimate security concerns in the area, but we cannot permit sovereign, Soviet territory to be influenced by German militarism. Let us make a compromise: we will agree to keep the Soviet Army presence in the area to a minimum, but the Germans must not be permitted to station troops in West Ukraine. In order to provide a guarantee of future grain deliveries, we will front-load our first few payments; this may upset some peasants, but this is an acceptable price to ensure Soviet sovereignty.
[]Get the Red Army in: Commissar Sverdlov has a quite different approach. Why not permit the Germans to station as many troops as they want in the area, but insist that, insofar as West Ukraine is sovereign, Soviet territory, we also be allowed to have as many troops in the region as we wish? The benefit of such a scheme is fairly clear: the Germans will likely feel that they must match our troop numbers to secure reparations payments, drawing away soldiers from the western front and making it more difficult for them to launch large offensive operations in the area. After all, we have a clear interest in prolonging a war which weakens the imperialist powers, and making West Ukraine a "silent theater" would grant us a relatively simple method of influencing the war's outcome.
On the Matter of the Department of Technological Acquisition
In an inconspicuous corner of Sovnarkom's extended, rectangular meeting table sits David Riazanov, a left-menshevik associate of Trotsky who has thus far remained withdrawn during the Sovnarkom meetings. When he does speak up, he seldom makes many friends, and tends to be viewed with detached derision by most centrist Bolsheviks. Even Martov is unsure of his true loyalties, though his scholarly manner, seemingly limitless capacity to quote from Marx, and intense and unwavering commitment to his own, particular ideological vision of democratic communism do command a certain level of respect.
With questions of foreign policy settled, Sovnarkom now moves to address a new matter in Riazanov's jurisdiction: a proposition to create a new department of technological acquisition. The middle-aged revolutionary historian takes a brief look around the room before addressing his comrades.
[] Empower the Trade Unions: My friends! I am unsure if you have all read through the proposal on the creation of a department of technological acquisition; I believe its details are in the written agenda for the present meeting. I judge it to be quite well-conceived on the whole, and believe that there is no good reason not to move forward with its basic outline. The first questions we must address are organizational and fiscal. Let me present you with my solutions to these. On the organizational matter, I propose that we resist the creation of a single, centralized committee, and instead subordinate individual committees for innovation to the leading trade unions. Each committee will be charged with investigating improvements in the technology particular to that union's line of work. Let us allocate funds roughly in proportion to the total capital stock of each union's industry. To raise this money, I believe a small tax on capital assets of the large industrial enterprises is sensible; in the long-run, these will benefit from the improvement in their quality of technology, and so it seems logical enough to have them pay for it.
On the matter of hiring, this should be devolved to the unions themselves, to ensure a smooth integration of the experts into the union structure. Naturally, the Commissariat of Trade and Industry should be given some say in hiring decisions - let us stipulate, equal to roughly 20% of seats on all the given committees, with the capacity to allocate these seats to specific unions on the basis of the national interest. Finally, on the issue of personnel, it is likely that we will at first have to employ a great many bourgeois engineers and scientists, a matter I judge to be regrettable but necessary until we have established a more robust and wide-ranging system of education.
[] Keep the Department in Sovnarkom: Lenin and Rykov speak up in succession, voicing skepticism about Riazanov's "idealist" plan. They argue that most of the union officials lack the technological expertise necessary to make considered decisions about appointments, and also worry about know-how being dispersed too widely, diluting the ability of experts to work together jointly. They propose an organizational scheme that will make the department a subsidiary of the commissariat of trade and industry with some mostly symbolic union participation, though they concur on the need to hire bourgeois experts. On the matter of funding, they propose a small hike on our already confiscatory tax on the middle-classes. (Note: This will moderately move the balance of power in the direction of Sovnarkom)
[] Subordinate the Engineers to the Soviets: After a heated debate between Riazanov and Lenin, Kollantai speaks up, outlining a new plan which will devolve the department to the Executive Committee of the Soviets. "It seems to me that since the structure of the department of technological acquisition will inevitably involve issues of economic planning that are of pertinence to the entirety of our worker's state, it should be controlled by the broadest sector of worker's representatives: not the unions or a single commissariat, but the executive committee itself. There are, however, merits to Riazanov's proposal: experts should work in concert with individual industries to work on improvements to technology, and I therefore propose that the body appointed by the executive committee have the character of a "coordinating committee", which will act to fill out members of individual, industry-level committees that will work in concert with the unions. The remaining matters, on taxes, personnel, and the relative size of the individual committees, ought to also be devolved to the executive committee in order to ensure democratic workers control of the planning mechanism." (Note: This will moderately move the balance of power in the direction of the Executive Committee)
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- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Just a heads-up, this section is cut off.
Cripes this is going to be difficult. Ok.
[X] Let's All Be Reasonable: Sergo Ordzhonikidze glances at Lenin, who has remained silent, and speaks up. "I believe there is no need for acrimony. Comrade Sverdlov has made an honest mistake, and this should be easy enough to solve. Comrade Avanesov, I am afraid that you cannot currently sit here, but I am sure the rest of us are agreeable to this being decided through the proper channels. Let's make sure the administrative committee takes this up in due time…" Currently, Ordzhonikidze, Stalin, and Kamenev sit on the relatively unimportant administrative committee; these are not allies of Sverdlov, and he will likely be forced to grant them concessions in order for his friend to be given a seat as an observer.
And
[X] Keep the Department in Sovnarkom: Lenin and Rykov speak up in succession, voicing skepticism about Riazanov's "idealist" plan. They argue that most of the union officials lack the technological expertise necessary to make considered decisions about appointments, and also worry about know-how being dispersed too widely, diluting the ability of experts to work together jointly. They propose an organizational scheme that will make the department a subsidiary of the commissariat of trade and industry with some mostly symbolic union participation, though they concur on the need to hire bourgeois experts. On the matter of funding, they propose a small hike on our already confiscatory tax on the middle-classes. (Note: This will moderately move the balance of power in the direction of Sovnarkom)
For reining in the executive committee a bit.
[X] Let's give them a reason to trust us: Sverdlov comes forward with an unusual idea: if we do not want to host German Troops, why not simply grant them some leverage over us, so they know we have an incentive to capture these territories? Sverdlov contends that the German offers of industrial assistance and capital goods are far less important at the present moment than the cession of Ukrainian territory; we can propose that Germany hold off on granting us this aid until our soldiers have taken back Crimea and Baku. (Note: Going forward with these military operations in the future will moderately reduce the opinion of the British).
The Brit's don't like us anyway but they're unlikely to try and shoot us.
[]Get the Red Army in: Commissar Sverdlov has a quite different approach. Why not permit the Germans to station as many troops as they want in the area, but insist that, insofar as West Ukraine is sovereign, Soviet territory, we also be allowed to have as many troops in the region as we wish? The benefit of such a scheme is fairly clear: the Germans will likely feel that they must match our troop numbers to secure reparations payments, drawing away soldiers from the western front and making it more difficult for them to launch large offensive operations in the area. After all, we have a clear interest in prolonging a war which weakens the imperialist powers, and making West Ukraine a "silent theater" would grant us a relatively simple method of influencing the war's outcome.
This is liable to backfire severely later, so
[X]Keep the Deutsches Heer Out: The Germans might have legitimate security concerns in the area, but we cannot permit sovereign, Soviet territory to be influenced by German militarism. Let us make a compromise: we will agree to keep the Soviet Army presence in the area to a minimum, but the Germans must not be permitted to station troops in West Ukraine. In order to provide a guarantee of future grain deliveries, we will front-load our first few payments; this may upset some peasants, but this is an acceptable price to ensure Soviet sovereignty.
We pay them and they leave.
[X] Let's All Be Reasonable: Sergo Ordzhonikidze glances at Lenin, who has remained silent, and speaks up. "I believe there is no need for acrimony. Comrade Sverdlov has made an honest mistake, and this should be easy enough to solve. Comrade Avanesov, I am afraid that you cannot currently sit here, but I am sure the rest of us are agreeable to this being decided through the proper channels. Let's make sure the administrative committee takes this up in due time…" Currently, Ordzhonikidze, Stalin, and Kamenev sit on the relatively unimportant administrative committee; these are not allies of Sverdlov, and he will likely be forced to grant them concessions in order for his friend to be given a seat as an observer.
And
[X] Keep the Department in Sovnarkom: Lenin and Rykov speak up in succession, voicing skepticism about Riazanov's "idealist" plan. They argue that most of the union officials lack the technological expertise necessary to make considered decisions about appointments, and also worry about know-how being dispersed too widely, diluting the ability of experts to work together jointly. They propose an organizational scheme that will make the department a subsidiary of the commissariat of trade and industry with some mostly symbolic union participation, though they concur on the need to hire bourgeois experts. On the matter of funding, they propose a small hike on our already confiscatory tax on the middle-classes. (Note: This will moderately move the balance of power in the direction of Sovnarkom)
For reining in the executive committee a bit.
[X] Let's give them a reason to trust us: Sverdlov comes forward with an unusual idea: if we do not want to host German Troops, why not simply grant them some leverage over us, so they know we have an incentive to capture these territories? Sverdlov contends that the German offers of industrial assistance and capital goods are far less important at the present moment than the cession of Ukrainian territory; we can propose that Germany hold off on granting us this aid until our soldiers have taken back Crimea and Baku. (Note: Going forward with these military operations in the future will moderately reduce the opinion of the British).
The Brit's don't like us anyway but they're unlikely to try and shoot us.
[]Get the Red Army in: Commissar Sverdlov has a quite different approach. Why not permit the Germans to station as many troops as they want in the area, but insist that, insofar as West Ukraine is sovereign, Soviet territory, we also be allowed to have as many troops in the region as we wish? The benefit of such a scheme is fairly clear: the Germans will likely feel that they must match our troop numbers to secure reparations payments, drawing away soldiers from the western front and making it more difficult for them to launch large offensive operations in the area. After all, we have a clear interest in prolonging a war which weakens the imperialist powers, and making West Ukraine a "silent theater" would grant us a relatively simple method of influencing the war's outcome.
This is liable to backfire severely later, so
[X]Keep the Deutsches Heer Out: The Germans might have legitimate security concerns in the area, but we cannot permit sovereign, Soviet territory to be influenced by German militarism. Let us make a compromise: we will agree to keep the Soviet Army presence in the area to a minimum, but the Germans must not be permitted to station troops in West Ukraine. In order to provide a guarantee of future grain deliveries, we will front-load our first few payments; this may upset some peasants, but this is an acceptable price to ensure Soviet sovereignty.
We pay them and they leave.
Red Rationalist
Spinning in eternity
- Location
- Andro-Orlando Hair Saloon
- Pronouns
- They/Them
My honest reaction: All the Russian Left know is how to eat borsht and lie for political powe. We have a civil war going on, could we maybe actually focus on that rather than the nonsense about the observer status? I'm in favour of forcing Sverdlov to compromise on principle, serves the little power monger right.
So, the actually important thing: Turns out promising the Germans resources we don't have didn't go great. I'm personally in favour of letting them delay the industrial assistance, hosting their troops is politically untenable. I don't think we can afford the image cost of being an actual German pawn going forward, especially with the Risk of the UK viewing us as an enemy.
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[X]Let's be Reasonable
-[X]Let's All Be Reasonable
-[X]We've made our bed with the Germans now
-[X]Narva is Ours
-[X]Call the German Bluff
-[X]Keep the Department in Sovnarkom
-[X]Let's All Be Reasonable
-[X]We've made our bed with the Germans now
-[X]Narva is Ours
-[X]Call the German Bluff
-[X]Keep the Department in Sovnarkom
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- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Comrade
[] Keep the Department in Sovnarkom: Lenin and Rykov speak up in succession, voicing skepticism about Riazanov's "idealist" plan. They argue that most of the union officials lack the technological expertise necessary to make considered decisions about appointments, and also worry about know-how being dispersed too widely, diluting the ability of experts to work together jointly. They propose an organizational scheme that will make the department a subsidiary of the commissariat of trade and industry with some mostly symbolic union participation, though they concur on the need to hire bourgeois experts. On the matter of funding, they propose a small hike on our already confiscatory tax on the middle-classes. (Note: This will moderately move the balance of power in the direction of Sovnarkom)
This seems like a good idea, and we probably want to shift power back towards sovnarkom anyway.
Edit: Oh, but that tax hike could be trouble. I'm not sure that's a good idea... :/
This seems like a good idea, and we probably want to shift power back towards sovnarkom anyway.
Edit: Oh, but that tax hike could be trouble. I'm not sure that's a good idea... :/
- Pronouns
- They/Them
This feels like we're intentionally helping the Germans win out of fear of it "backfiring."
- Location
- Somewhere in the area
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Leaning towards this for the Narva question, as it's a much better rationale for not just accepting the city, allowing us to keep it as an entry point for subversive actions into the German Empire, and worse case scenario we get another Soviet Republic to add to our government.
Red Rationalist
Spinning in eternity
- Location
- Andro-Orlando Hair Saloon
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Our support among them is currently middling. And while this department means slightly more taxes, it would also mean more job openings for educated engineers and eventual access to capital goods the Soviets can't access and the factories they manage rely on. Overall, this isn't a bad deal for them, likely not something that would be met which much opposition.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Honestly I feel like this is pretty decent? The action has to be legitimized, even if Sverdlov is probably correct that the observer status should be granted.
- Location
- Austin
- Pronouns
- She/They
Yeah, while we very much do not want to get into a shooting war with Germany, dragging out the war increases the chance of a wider revolution. Tying up German troops sitting around in the east, doing nothing helps in three ways it keeps troops out of the western front that could be used for a break through, it builds internal resentment in the German Army as there's the calm front and the die for nothing front , and it gives opportunity to fraternitize with the German army.
[X]Get the Red Army in: Commissar Sverdlov has a quite different approach. Why not permit the Germans to station as many troops as they want in the area, but insist that, insofar as West Ukraine is sovereign, Soviet territory, we also be allowed to have as many troops in the region as we wish? The benefit of such a scheme is fairly clear: the Germans will likely feel that they must match our troop numbers to secure reparations payments, drawing away soldiers from the western front and making it more difficult for them to launch large offensive operations in the area. After all, we have a clear interest in prolonging a war which weakens the imperialist powers, and making West Ukraine a "silent theater" would grant us a relatively simple method of influencing the war's outcome.
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- Location
- Somewhere in the area
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
[X] Let's All Be Reasonable
[X] We've made our bed with the Germans now
[X] Demand Estonia
[X] Get the Red Army in
[X] Keep the Department in Sovnarkom
I think the joint-military operations and forcing parts of the German army to sit around and do nothing are good avenues for propagandizing the German military for a later German revolution. Our troops have poor training/equipment but high morale, while German troops have great training/equipment but low morale, which seems to be a very good combination to improve the quality of our army and make the German rank-and-file jealous.
[X] We've made our bed with the Germans now
[X] Demand Estonia
[X] Get the Red Army in
[X] Keep the Department in Sovnarkom
I think the joint-military operations and forcing parts of the German army to sit around and do nothing are good avenues for propagandizing the German military for a later German revolution. Our troops have poor training/equipment but high morale, while German troops have great training/equipment but low morale, which seems to be a very good combination to improve the quality of our army and make the German rank-and-file jealous.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Like, okay, this is partially cheating but we know how this phase of events ends in "canon." The German army collapses into revolution, Rosa Luxemburg gets put in a sealed train, of all intentional ironies, and a German Socialist Republic (forgot its actual name) winds up being created.
Similarly there's a France revolt that seems liable to succeed, Italy goes Red-Black... but all of Eastern Europe apparently turns into a "Shatter Zone" where the breakdown of authority and society leads to the rise of crazy far-right ethnonationalists and ethnocide back and forth and etc, etc.
We kinda want the first to happen, but would probably want to make sure that we can do something to reduce the impact of the latter.
Similarly there's a France revolt that seems liable to succeed, Italy goes Red-Black... but all of Eastern Europe apparently turns into a "Shatter Zone" where the breakdown of authority and society leads to the rise of crazy far-right ethnonationalists and ethnocide back and forth and etc, etc.
We kinda want the first to happen, but would probably want to make sure that we can do something to reduce the impact of the latter.
Red Rationalist
Spinning in eternity
- Location
- Andro-Orlando Hair Saloon
- Pronouns
- They/Them
@Curby A question for the next agenda motion: How were food seizures implemented in this timeline? Are there any notable differences from the one in our own, given the greater role of the SRs? Second question, is there any information available to parliament about Milyutin's condition?
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- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
What happened to my proposal?