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The Enemy Within (WHF Witch Hunter Quest)

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[X] [Goetrin] Disgrace. Graf von Saponatheim will be sending a representative to the town, and you expect they will be eager to be seen 'cleaning up' the town. Goetrin will likely be stripped of command and sent home in disgrace, tarnished with this failure in the eyes of his peers.
[X] [Edel] Incompetent. You will make the necessary reports through the cult hierarchy to make it clear to the Arch Lectors the scale of Edel's failure. Likely he will be quietly 'promoted' to some forgotten corner of a distant abbey and a more appropriate high priest appointed. Perhaps Sigiwalt would like the job.

I think it's going a bit too far to have these people killed - but they can't stay in their positions.

[X] [Teugen] Repaid You will have a quiet word with the councilman, and make him see the wisdom of burying the hatchet. His wealth, and his connections among the nobility of Reikland and beyond, will be of great help to you and your agents in the future.

Not the same degree as the others, since Edel was clearly giving him extra reason to be skeptical here. And we could use the help.

[X] [Other] Arrange a fitting reward for Adhema and Ozzy.
[X] [Other] Give a glowing report on Sigiwalt and recommend that he be promoted
[X] [Other] Return to the High Temple of Sigmar and spend some time praying for your god's guidance. You came face to face with a formidable servant of the Great Enemy and perhaps came out not unscathed. Clear you mind, find your focus, reflect. Fortify your soul to face the trails ahead. Maybe now, with you holy duty complete you will find a semblance of peace and answers.
 
Somic said:
I agree with most of your post, but regarding this: the reason I voted for Retirement was that it is the option where we get to pick who gets the post.
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I think that is a valid argument.

The reason I didn't pick it is that Markus is prone to seeking outcomes he perceives as fair, even if those outcomes are not practical. Goetrin and Edel were both charged with the defense of their town, and they both failed, so they should be denounced as incompetents. From a purely practical perspective, letting Goetrin off easy would earn us favors from his family and friends. Letting Edel off easy would earn us favors from his wealthy patrons.

In my mind, Markus likes justice and fairness, so he's not going to always do the most practical thing. However, he sometimes needs to do the most practical thing, and Reugen is the least guilty party that we could make a bargain with.

A decent witch hunter must constantly balance between "let justice be done though the heavens fall" and "actually there's no problem here, the guard captain is a friend of a man who owes me a favor." Go too far in the first direction, and you will have a very short career. Go too far in the second, and you end up turning a blind eye to a prosperous merchant who is holding a "witch trial" for some insignificant member of the lower classes.
 
There will be opportunities to reduce Markus' corruption in the quest to be clear, I just have a particular idea for how it is going to be done, and relatively soon. Specifically, the Templars have a pretty good grasp on how this kind of thing works, at least relative to most other people in the setting, and I'm looking forward to exploring that.
 
Given what other options are currently leading and what has transpired, I wonder what people hope to accomplish by letting Teugen off? The man is unlikely to let us trade on his name given we have since killing one of his terrible friends, killed more of his associates/friends, and are removing Edel, who is his toady. Like yes he might agree if we roll very well, but much better to ensure he is punished, especially if we wish to punish Edel as well. Furthermore seeking a harsher punishment for the guard captain and not his master is to be blunt, ass backwards.
 
Sarpedon said:
Given what other options are currently leading and what has transpired, I wonder what people hope to accomplish by letting Teugen off? The man is unlikely to let us trade on his name given we have since killing one of his terrible friends, killed more of his associates/friends, and are removing Edel, who is his toady. Like yes he might agree if we roll very well, but much better to ensure he is punished, especially if we wish to punish Edel as well. Furthermore seeking a harsher punishment for the guard captain and not his master is to be blunt, ass backwards.
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I mean, I straight up just trust the wording of the option. Looking for lies in those is an unhappy way to quest.
 
Somic said:
I mean, I straight up just trust the wording of the option. Looking for lies in those is an unhappy way to quest.
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Maugan doesn't do trap options, but choosing options that are in opposition to one another is not a recipe for success. If you wish to punish Edel and make sure it sticks, you must also attack his pillars of support in the community such as Teugen. Furthermore the man has no reason to want to assist us and dislikes us so we will most likely be coercing him to do so. We can do this but for how long can that state of affairs last?
 
Sarpedon said:
Given what other options are currently leading and what has transpired, I wonder what people hope to accomplish by letting Teugen off? The man is unlikely to let us trade on his name given we have since killing one of his terrible friends, killed more of his associates/friends, and are removing Edel, who is his toady. Like yes he might agree if we roll very well, but much better to ensure he is punished, especially if we wish to punish Edel as well. Furthermore seeking a harsher punishment for the guard captain and not his master is to be blunt, ass backwards.
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If we had friends in high places, we could have wiped out this cult without any trouble. If not for the refusal of local authorities to listen to Markus, work with Markus, or even investigate a cult ritual reported by a Templar of Sigmar, this would have been a milk run. The main obstacle to our success was not the Ordo or their daemon, but the local authorities who refused to cooperate.

A successful witch hunter needs contacts. They need allies. They need important people to owe them favors. It is unfortunate that we need to play politics to do our job, but we need to play politics to do our job.

Teugen is a successful merchant and a city councilor. He knows people. He knows how to play the political game. He is also in a position where we could easily blow up his career and his business. It's unlikely that he would be poor, but it would still be a tremendous step down from his current position.

Many of his associates/friends were involved with a Chaos cult; he's going to be desperate to clear his name. If we let him off with a stern warning, then he owes us, and we have leverage over him. After all, he has close business associates who were part of a Chaos cult, and we could easily tell our friends in the Cult of Sigmar about his interference. Markus doesn't think that interference was caused by heresy, but who knows what another witch hunter might suspect?

Teugen is in a very dangerous position. We could blow up his career, and he knows that we could blow up his career, but we're refraining from further action. Provided he understands the importance of assisting the Templars in any future endeavors. Provided that he and his contacts are willing to lend such assistance to Markus in his future endeavors.

This is the kind of soft power that Maugan Ra was talking about. Being a successful witch hunter requires more than a big hat, a sharp sword, and a keen eye. You have to learn how to work with the local power structures.
 
Sarpedon said:
Given what other options are currently leading and what has transpired, I wonder what people hope to accomplish by letting Teugen off? The man is unlikely to let us trade on his name given we have since killing one of his terrible friends, killed more of his associates/friends, and are removing Edel, who is his toady. Like yes he might agree if we roll very well, but much better to ensure he is punished, especially if we wish to punish Edel as well. Furthermore seeking a harsher punishment for the guard captain and not his master is to be blunt, ass backwards.
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My thoughts on the matter are actually pretty simple.

He didn't do anything all that wrong?

At most he didn't allow us to do a court case behind closed doors and actually insisted the defendant be notified of said court case. But when push came to shove he didn't stonewall us, and actually went and did what he had to do. Even if he didn't like it. This in stark contrast to Edel who ignored the warning signs reported by his priests way before our arrival. And if we hadn't already been present in the town, he'd have likely called the whole thing off.

Edel had multiple chances at taking the proper actions. But failed to do so in all of them. He's in over his head. Teugen for all his beef with us, did do as we asked.
 
Sarpedon said:
If you wish to punish Edel and make sure it sticks, you must also attack his pillars of support in the community such as Teugen.
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When the Cult of Sigmar rolls into town in force and goes "this one of ours has fucked up and we're gonna deal with him internally" and everybody who's in the know is very well aware of what happened and how it could blow up in their faces too, there's no way Teugen would 1) stick his already vulnerable neck out 2) to stick his nose into Sigmarite business 3) to help out someone who is known (internally) to have nearly doomed a city to Chaos. This just makes no sense. Edel's career is done for once we decide it should be done for, because we have all the evidence we need, and the authority to send it up the chain to people vastly more important than Teugen.

Edit: also, speaking of option synergies, ending an important person's career with evidence of their wrongdoings is a pretty good demonstration when we come to another important person whose career we could majorly fuck up with such evidence and go "how about you and I leave all this dreadful business behind us, and you start being helpful like any proper Imperial citizen should?"
 
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Undead Martyr said:
Demonic encounters do seem like the sort of thing that should strain the mind and soul.
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It varies based on the kind of game you want to have, and how memetic you want Chaos to be
In fact I'd go so far as to say that materials have contradictory ideas on the matter

The Corebook gives multiple examples of what can qualify as a corrupting influence
Some of the lower bars to clear is mere physical contact with a mutant, being exposed to ordinary Chaos worshippers for any length of time (inevitable if your job is investigating them) or brief exposure to any environment steeped in Dhar
You can be exposed to a moderate influence if you so much as feel rage, despair or "the desire to become someone new". That line in particular is up to interpretation, I feel like most people would only consider it a corrupting influence if the character was actually being influenced by a Dark God at the time as otherwise characters would be static and pretty bland, but that's not what the rules actually say

The advice given in the Corebook is that the GM should inform the players that Chaos Cultists, not Daemons but Cultists, are to be avoided at all costs

Of course, that's not really compatible with adventures designed around investigating Chaos Cults. If you have players roll for Corruption every time they so much as get into a fight with a mutant then that's going to teach them to run away the second they see one.
So adventure modules like Enemy in Shadows tend to ignore that, and don't mention having your players test for mutation after fighting the mutant brigands on the road
Or testing for it after having to investigate the Ordo over 4 days
At one point players are expected to try to physically wrestle a mutant goblin

Keep in mind that a typical character starting a campaign will usually only be able to take 5 to 7 points of Corruption
Following a strict interpretation of Corrupting Influences, they can expect to encounter about 5 distinct instances of Minor Exposure, 3 Moderate and 1 Major over the course of Enemy in Shadows
That's a potential 14 points of corruption
And that's only counting the ones your characters almost definitely have to face, not optional ones like every time Morrslieb shines on them or *spoiler*

A starting character, and Enemy in Shadows is intended for starting players, would never make it through that without teetering on the edge of mutation at best
And then they're expected to head off to the next adventure in the campaign, with even more corrupting influences waiting for them

The Corebook and the adventure module are very much talking past one another when it comes to this
One of them expects players to bolt the second they see any bad juju, the other expects them to be willing to stay in Bogenhafen after physically seeing and fighting a Daemon, multiple times
 
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Yeah, basically, I'm not a huge fan of "Chaos is a disease, not a moral threat", but that's the canon interpretation in Warhammer that's reinforced at every turn, so we just have to deal with it. Bad Vibes alone can make someone be corrupted into a slave of Chaos canonically, they can be the most genuinely pious person around, but if their God of choice isn't actively riding shotgun on their shoulder (And sometimes even if they are), all Chaos needs to do is hang out in their neighborhood and they'll inevitably fall. It's stupid, but that's how the setting works (Because Chaos is such a terrible choice that they'd never be a massive threat if they couldn't just infect people like a disease)
 
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[X] [Goetrin] The Pyre. You will lay charges of conspiracy and blasphemous intent against the Captain, proclaiming that he willingly assisted a cult of the dark gods. He will likely be found guilty, regardless of his actual involvement, and sentenced to burn at the stake.
[X] [Edel] Heretic. Whether knowingly or through ignorance, Edel lent significant aid and guidance to a cult of the dark gods, and Bögenhafen nearly paid the price. You will publicly condemn and prosecute the man, and damn all warnings of his friends and patrons.
[X] [Teugen] Recalled. You will not resort to the courts for this, but make it publicly known to all Bögenhafen what Teugen did and what the consequences almost were. Merchant families depend on their good reputation more than coin; likely, he will lose his job on the Council and his entire house will face very hard times until they can redeem their good name.
 
Regarding Chaos as memetic hazard, it was imho always one of the biggest flaws of Warhammer worldbuilding, Fantasy or 40k.

With that in mind, I do appreciate it when QMs manage to tone down/make more interesting some of the grimderp parts of the lore as most of the Warhammer questmasters on this site successfully do.

In any case, Maugan Ra will choose the option that he thinks suits the quest the best, and his prior excellent writing gives him at the very least my benefit of doubt.
 
Alectai said:
Yeah, basically, I'm not a huge fan of "Chaos is a disease, not a moral threat", but that's the canon interpretation in Warhammer that's reinforced at every turn, so we just have to deal with it. Bad Vibes alone can make someone be corrupted into a slave of Chaos canonically, they can be the most genuinely pious person around, but if their God of choice isn't actively riding shotgun on their shoulder (And sometimes even if they are), all Chaos needs to do is hang out in their neighborhood and they'll inevitably fall. It's stupid, but that's how the setting works (Because Chaos is such a terrible choice that they'd never be a massive threat if they couldn't just infect people like a disease)
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That also varies
Sometimes Chaos is a disease that can infect you without any regard for what your personal choices are
Sometimes Chaos is something you have to let in for it to have genuine claim over you
Sometimes it's a fuzzy middle ground, where it can gradually influence and twist you, but you don't truly fall until it pushes you to the point that you take the step off the ledge yourself

For instance, all those other inner Ordo members who got their souls taken?
Yeah that doesn't happen in Enemy in Shadows unless you actually fail to stop the ritual (at which point a portal to the Warp opens and they fall in)

The Ordo weren't Chaos worshippers, they were dupes, they genuinely think that Gideon's just a shady magicker of some kind who's going to make them all rich. The hired thugs know even less.
When Gideon and the Ordo's leader (who in the module is Teugan) fight the players Teugan actually has to yell and threaten the other inner members into covering their eyes so they don't see Gideon transform and realize he's a Daemon
If they do see Gideon during the fight then they're afflicted with Fear and run off, wanting nothing to do with any of this, foiling the ritual unless Teugan can intimidate them into staying
(Part of what makes it a beginner adventure is how many points of failure the ritual has that lets you stop it without having to kill everyone in the room)

When the ritual fails Teugan's soul is claimed, but only because he outright sold it 7 years ago in exchange for 7 years of wealth and power
If you're wondering why he'd be stupid enough to sell his soul in exchange for such fleeting returns, it's because Gideon tricked Teugan into believing that he could exchange 7 others in place of his own, allowing him to get off scot free. That's what Teugan thinks the ritual is, he's planning dupe the Inner Ordo into sacrificing themselves for him.
Of course, Teugan is also being duped and it's actually a ritual to open a portal

The rest of the Ordo though, provided the ritual is foiled? They're fine, Tzeentch has no claim on their soul, because they never gave it to him
They panic, they flee, they get captured by the Watch, whatever
They don't burn up in multicolored fire as their souls get eaten. That's a new addition in this quest
 
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I think the cultists all getting claimed makes sense in the context that they participated in a human saccrifice. Maybe their souls would have been spared if we'd stopped them before they cut out the girls heart and pit it in a bowl
 
[X] [Goetrin] Disgrace. Graf von Saponatheim will be sending a representative to the town, and you expect they will be eager to be seen 'cleaning up' the town. Goetrin will likely be stripped of command and sent home in disgrace, tarnished with this failure in the eyes of his peers.

[X] [Edel] Heretic. Whether knowingly or through ignorance, Edel lent significant aid and guidance to a cult of the dark gods, and Bögenhafen nearly paid the price. You will publicly condemn and prosecute the man, and damn all warnings of his friends and patrons.

[X] [Teugen] Recalled. You will not resort to the courts for this, but make it publicly known to all Bögenhafen what Teugen did and what the consequences almost were. Merchant families depend on their good reputation more than coin; likely, he will lose his job on the Council and his entire house will face very hard times until they can redeem their good name.

Out of curiosity, I know we voted no on using any dark deals (alas) but is it theoretically possible to use a dark deal to reroll a corruption test?
 
[X] [Goetrin] Disgrace. Graf von Saponatheim will be sending a representative to the town, and you expect they will be eager to be seen 'cleaning up' the town. Goetrin will likely be stripped of command and sent home in disgrace, tarnished with this failure in the eyes of his peers.
[X] [Edel] Incompetent. You will make the necessary reports through the cult hierarchy to make it clear to the Arch Lectors the scale of Edel's failure. Likely he will be quietly 'promoted' to some forgotten corner of a distant abbey and a more appropriate high priest appointed. Perhaps Sigiwalt would like the job.
[X] [Teugen] Repaid. You will have a quiet word with the councilman, and make him see the wisdom of burying the hatchet. His wealth, and his connections among the nobility of Reikland and beyond, will be of great help to you and your agents in the future.
[X] [Other] Arrange a fitting reward for Adhema and Ozzy.
[X] [Other] Give a glowing report on Sigiwalt and recommend that he be promoted.
[X] [Other] Arrange to pay for the murdered woman's funeral and rest in the nearest Garden of Morr.
[X] [Other] Arrest and investigate the Stevedores directly involved with guarding the ritual site.
[X] [Other] Enjoy the Schaffenfest with your companions while it still lasts.
[X] [Other] Return to the High Temple of Sigmar and spend some time praying for your god's guidance. You came face to face with a formidable servant of the Great Enemy and perhaps came out not unscathed. Clear you mind, find your focus, reflect. Fortify your soul to face the trails ahead. Maybe now, with you holy duty complete, you will find a semblance of peace and answers.
 
CrimsonOddball said:
For instance, all those other inner Ordo members who got their souls taken?
Yeah that doesn't happen in Enemy in Shadows unless you actually fail to stop the ritual (at which point a portal to the Warp opens and they fall in)
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This one I feel fairly free in admitting is just a matter of personal taste.

Which is to say that there's no way any of those people were getting out of this adventure alive anyway - Markus had their names, and he had them placed at a magical ritual involving human sacrifice and working alongside a daemon. I didn't particularly want to write scenes of him running these people to ground and dragging them kicking and screaming to the pyre while they protested their innocence and begged for mercy, so I took a shortcut.

I figure it works out thematically anyway - Chaos doesn't need to be 'infectious' in order to justify someone being damned by the time they reach the 'dressed up in concealing robes and offering human sacrifices' stage. They didn't know that they'd signed away their souls by participating, but they did.
 
[X] [Goetrin] Retirement. You will speak privately with the captain, and offer him a chance to bow out with some honour. He will appoint a replacement of your choosing, someone of integrity, and then take an early retirement to pursue some harmless interest.
[x] [Edel] Incompetent. You will make the necessary reports through the cult hierarchy to make it clear to the Arch Lectors the scale of Edel's failure. Likely he will be quietly 'promoted' to some forgotten corner of a distant abbey and a more appropriate high priest appointed. Perhaps Sigiwalt would like the job.
[x] [Teugen] Repaid. You will have a quiet word with the councilman, and make him see the wisdom of burying the hatchet. His wealth, and his connections among the nobility of Reikland and beyond, will be of great help to you and your agents in the future.

[x] [Other] Arrange a fitting reward for Adhema and Ozzy.
[x] [Other] Give a glowing report on Sigiwalt and recommend that he be promoted
[x] [Other] Arrest and investigate the Stevedores directly involved with guarding the ritual site.
[x] [Other] Arrange to pay for the murdered woman's funeral and rest in the nearest Garden of Morr.
[X] [Other] Visit the Doktor and Loremaster of the Pandemonium Carnival once more to try and work out Markus' feelings on mutation.
[X] [Other] Enjoy the Schaffenfest with your companions while it still lasts.
[X] [Other] Return to the High Temple of Sigmar and spend some time praying for your god's guidance. You came face to face with a formidable servant of the Great Enemy and perhaps came out not unscathed. Clear you mind, find your focus, reflect. Fortify your soul to face the trails ahead. Maybe now, with you holy duty complete you will find a semblance of peace and answers.
 
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[X] [Goetrin] Disgrace. Graf von Saponatheim will be sending a representative to the town, and you expect they will be eager to be seen 'cleaning up' the town. Goetrin will likely be stripped of command and sent home in disgrace, tarnished with this failure in the eyes of his peers.

He does not deserve death but he does deserve punishment for his mundane corruption and unwillingness to listen to a Man whose whole investigation had been with in the law as it is written.

[X] [Edel] Incompetent. You will make the necessary reports through the cult hierarchy to make it clear to the Arch Lectors the scale of Edel's failure. Likely he will be quietly 'promoted' to some forgotten corner of a distant abbey and a more appropriate high priest appointed. Perhaps Sigiwalt would like the job.
[X] [Teugen] Repaid You will have a quiet word with the councilman, and make him see the wisdom of burying the hatchet. His wealth, and his connections among the nobility of Reikland and beyond, will be of great help to you and your agents in the future.

[X] [Other] Arrange a fitting reward for Adhema and Ozzy.
[X] [Other] Give a glowing report on Sigiwalt and recommend that he be promoted.
[X] [Other] Arrange to pay for the murdered woman's funeral and rest in the nearest Garden of Morr.
[X] [Other] Arrest and investigate the Stevedores directly involved with guarding the ritual site.
[X] [Other] Return to the High Temple of Sigmar and spend some time praying for your god's guidance. You came face to face with a formidable servant of the Great Enemy and perhaps came out not unscathed. Clear you mind, find your focus, reflect. Fortify your soul to face the trails ahead. Maybe now, with you holy duty complete you will find a semblance of peace and answers.
 
[X] [Goetrin] Retirement. You will speak privately with the captain, and offer him a chance to bow out with some honour. He will appoint a replacement of your choosing, someone of integrity, and then take an early retirement to pursue some harmless interest.
[x] [Edel] Incompetent. You will make the necessary reports through the cult hierarchy to make it clear to the Arch Lectors the scale of Edel's failure. Likely he will be quietly 'promoted' to some forgotten corner of a distant abbey and a more appropriate high priest appointed. Perhaps Sigiwalt would like the job.
[x] [Teugen] Repaid. You will have a quiet word with the councilman, and make him see the wisdom of burying the hatchet. His wealth, and his connections among the nobility of Reikland and beyond, will be of great help to you and your agents in the future.

[x] [Other] Arrange a fitting reward for Adhema and Ozzy.
[x] [Other] Give a glowing report on Sigiwalt and recommend that he be promoted
[x] [Other] Arrest and investigate the Stevedores directly involved with guarding the ritual site.
[x] [Other] Arrange to pay for the murdered woman's funeral and rest in the nearest Garden of Morr.
[X] [Other] Visit the Doktor and Loremaster of the Pandemonium Carnival once more to try and work out Markus' feelings on mutation.
[X] [Other] Enjoy the Schaffenfest with your companions while it still lasts.
[X] [Other] Return to the High Temple of Sigmar and spend some time praying for your god's guidance. You came face to face with a formidable servant of the Great Enemy and perhaps came out not unscathed. Clear you mind, find your focus, reflect. Fortify your soul to face the trails ahead. Maybe now, with you holy duty complete you will find a semblance of peace an
d answers.
 
[X] [Goetrin] Disgrace. Graf von Saponatheim will be sending a representative to the town, and you expect they will be eager to be seen 'cleaning up' the town. Goetrin will likely be stripped of command and sent home in disgrace, tarnished with this failure in the eyes of his peers.
[X] [Edel] Incompetent. You will make the necessary reports through the cult hierarchy to make it clear to the Arch Lectors the scale of Edel's failure. Likely he will be quietly 'promoted' to some forgotten corner of a distant abbey and a more appropriate high priest appointed. Perhaps Sigiwalt would like the job.
[X] [Teugen] Repaid You will have a quiet word with the councilman, and make him see the wisdom of burying the hatchet. His wealth, and his connections among the nobility of Reikland and beyond, will be of great help to you and your agents in the future.
 
[X] [Goetrin] Disgrace. Graf von Saponatheim will be sending a representative to the town, and you expect they will be eager to be seen 'cleaning up' the town. Goetrin will likely be stripped of command and sent home in disgrace, tarnished with this failure in the eyes of his peers.
[X] [Edel] Incompetent. You will make the necessary reports through the cult hierarchy to make it clear to the Arch Lectors the scale of Edel's failure. Likely he will be quietly 'promoted' to some forgotten corner of a distant abbey and a more appropriate high priest appointed. Perhaps Sigiwalt would like the job.
[X] [Teugen] Repaid You will have a quiet word with the councilman, and make him see the wisdom of burying the hatchet. His wealth, and his connections among the nobility of Reikland and beyond, will be of great help to you and your agents in the future.

[x] [Other] Arrange a fitting reward for Adhema and Ozzy.
[x] [Other] Give a glowing report on Sigiwalt and recommend that he be promoted
[x] [Other] Arrange to pay for the murdered woman's funeral and rest in the nearest Garden of Morr.
 
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