The Enemy Within (WHF Witch Hunter Quest)

Always Late · Aug 17, 2024

[X] The Emperor has the right. The action is legitimate, and if the proper forms were not followed, you can only trust that Karl-Franz had good cause to bypass the Diet and enact such a summary judgement upon his wayward vassal.

We're a Templar, an officially sanctioned Witch Hunter. We are judge, jury, and executioner, for there are crimes that go above the normal judicial process.

The local Chaos Champion isn't going to be clapped in irons and dragged before a judge and told if he cannot hire a lawyer, one will be provided for him. The Beastman herd which just did things to the local orphanage I can't post here isn't going to be tried by a jury of their peers. The Von Carstiens are not in anyway a legitimate house or Electors, we don't consider Zar Naggrund to be entitled to the same terms of friendship as the Karaz Ankor, and we sure as hell aren't putting Orcs and Goblins in the drunk tank.

It is far too easy to find any number of scenarios where Karl Fraz has the right to just skip straight to killing shit. This is The Empire of Warhammer Fantasy.

Aura · Aug 17, 2024

[X] The Emperor oversteps
This is the empire, not Brettonia! Perhaps, in times of crisis, this could be acceptable- but it is not likely to be.

Look, we all like KF, but we are a noble in the empire, and the destruction of noble families at no notice should be the sort of thing we would worry about!

Andres · Aug 17, 2024

Always Late said:
It is far too easy to find any number of scenarios where Karl Fraz has the right to just skip straight to killing shit.

Sure but like... these aren't Chaos champions of beastmen or vampires. These are nobles in good standing. Your argument is bad because you're saying we should be allowed to slaughter innocents because we're allowed to slaughter goblins.

Orbmorb · Aug 17, 2024

[x] The Emperor oversteps. The Archduke deserves a fair trial under the law, and his peers in the Reikland Diet are entitled to hear the evidence and have their voices heard. To depose a vassal by force of arms absent such processes is nothing more or less than tyranny.

Always Late · Aug 17, 2024

Andres said:
Sure but like... these aren't Chaos champions of beastmen or vampires. These are nobles in good standing. Your argument is bad because you're saying we should be allowed to slaughter innocents because we're allowed to slaughter goblins.

How are you so sure the Jungfreuds' innocent? If they're vampires, if they're necromancers, if they've pledged to Chaos, if they've sold out to the Skaven because it's Ubersreik, then they're not entitled to anything more than a swift and relentless death.

There are situations where it's ordained by Sigmar you just straight-up slaughter people. there are situations where you are not supposed to just wait for the judicial process to grind slowly forward. And we're a pious, Sigmar-fearing man. The same reasons that give us as a Templar "License To Kill" gives Karl Franz the ability to use military force at the drop of a hat.

LucidProp · Aug 17, 2024

I do suspect this will affect how Max and the others sees us, and how our legbreaker will operate under Markus. The entire update made a point of repeatedly telling us that Max is feeling Markus out after all.

As a Witch Hunter, we're ideally a figure to fear but hopefully one that does his killing with evidence and good reasons. If we show support to a authority figure doing what he wants, and finding justification after the fact instead of before it, that signals to our companions that Markus thinks authority figures can do as they please to people below them so long as they can justify it after the fact.

That's the wrong message to send to the legbreaker I think. We want him to break legs we want him to break, ideally after we gather proof to justify the legbreaking, not break legs first and gather evidence later. That way likely ends with a lot of innocent people harmed.

Always Late said:
How are you so sure the Jungfreuds' innocent? If they're vampires, if they're necromancers, if they've pledged to Chaos, if they've sold out to the Skaven because it's Ubersreik, then they're not entitled to anything more than a swift and relentless death.

There are situations where it's ordained by Sigmar you just straight-up slaughter people. there are situations where you are not supposed to just wait for the judicial process to grind slowly forward. And we're a pious, Sigmar-fearing man. The same reasons that give us as a Templar "License To Kill" gives Karl Franz the ability to use military force at the drop of a hat.

Because the Jungfreud's are a historic family with a long history of service to the Empire and Sigmar, and Karl Franz has yet to present any evidence to the contrary.

Sigmar wants you to slaughter his enemies, not his servants.

Shard · Aug 17, 2024

[x] The Emperor oversteps. The Archduke deserves a fair trial under the law, and his peers in the Reikland Diet are entitled to hear the evidence and have their voices heard. To depose a vassal by force of arms absent such processes is nothing more or less than tyranny.

Even if the Emperor has all the evidence he needs he's supposed to give them a fair trial under the law. That's the point of the law, even if it's inconvenient as all hell.

Andrensath · Aug 17, 2024

[x] The Emperor oversteps. The Archduke deserves a fair trial under the law, and his peers in the Reikland Diet are entitled to hear the evidence and have their voices heard. To depose a vassal by force of arms absent such processes is nothing more or less than tyranny.

Andres · Aug 17, 2024

Always Late said:
How are you so sure the Jungfreuds' innocent? If they're vampires, if they're necromancers, if they've pledged to Chaos, if they've sold out to the Skaven because it's Ubersreik, then they're not entitled to anything more than a swift and relentless death.

There are situations where it's ordained by Sigmar you just straight-up slaughter people. there are situations where you are not supposed to just wait for the judicial process to grind slowly forward. And we're a pious, Sigmar-fearing man. The same reasons that give us as a Templar "License To Kill" gives Karl Franz the ability to use military force at the drop of a hat.

Prove their guilt. Tell me what makes you so certain that the Jungfreuds are these sorts of people that need immediate slaughtering. You know something everyone else here doesn't, otherwise why else would you have Karl-Franz's back so strongly. Why else would you be so sure that this isn't a tyrant being a bastard.

CrimsonOddball · Aug 17, 2024

Always Late said:
How are you so sure the Jungfreuds' innocent? If they're vampires, if they're necromancers, if they've pledged to Chaos, if they've sold out to the Skaven because it's Ubersreik, then they're not entitled to anything more than a swift and relentless death.

There are situations where it's ordained by Sigmar you just straight-up slaughter people. there are situations where you are not supposed to just wait for the judicial process to grind slowly forward. And we're a pious, Sigmar-fearing man. The same reasons that give us as a Templar "License To Kill" gives Karl Franz the ability to use military force at the drop of a hat.

That would be the purpose of a fair trial
To show that Jungfreuds' are not innocent

Sure, there are circumstances that would render a trial superfluous, but those circumstances weren't what was presented
We aren't being told that they the Jungfreuds' were discovered cultists, or vampires
And since they've already been driven out of their manors and the army is mobilized there's really no reason they wouldn't be openly shouting that the Jungfreuds' were forbidden cultists if that were the case
opsec has long since come and gone
Instead what info we have is that the charge is treason, and the source is "because I said so"

Arguing "but Franz is a good Emperor so he must be in the right" isn't very sound from Markus' perspective either, the Law doesn't only apply when it is convenient
If Franz has the right to depose a vassal absent due process and have the action be considered fair and not worth concern
Then any Emperor does as well
Nobles don't tend to be very fond of the idea that the Emperor can just do whatever to them, brings to mind bad memories
Like that time Ludwig the Fat wanted the Elector Count of Stirland's and Averland's daughters and took it badly that they didn't reciprocate

somewhatLazy · Aug 17, 2024

[x] The Emperor oversteps. The Archduke deserves a fair trial under the law, and his peers in the Reikland Diet are entitled to hear the evidence and have their voices heard. To depose a vassal by force of arms absent such processes is nothing more or less than tyranny.

I was rather uncertain about what Markus would do, but then I reread the first scene…

Maugan Ra said:
Your sloth, your weakness, your willingness to believe without proof and pass judgement without law, are sins in the eyes of Sigmar, and one day you will answer for them!

— Markus, chewing out a bunch of villagers

And, I suppose, there's definitely a great deal of unresolved trauma over just how quickly his noble father died as well as concern for the safety of his family after their lord abruptly got arrested for treason informing his judgments too…

Maugan Ra said:
"Those are the sigils of House Holswig-Schleistein, House Holzkrug and House Gruber," you say, studying the symbols and noting with some distaste how faded the paint on some of them has gotten. "Respectively, the Emperor's own household, one of their biggest rivals, and a newly elevated house from Weissbruck proper."

Were you among peers you might refer to the Grubers as upjumped merchants who bribed their way into a claim that their blood really does not support, but airing the business of the nobility before the peasantry never works out well for anyone.

Also WHF really did name the money-grubbing merchants the Grubers XD

Stewart9 · Aug 17, 2024

13th Bee said:
[X] The Emperor has the right. The action is legitimate, and if the proper forms were not followed, you can only trust that Karl-Franz had good cause to bypass the Diet and enact such a summary judgement upon his wayward vassal.

[X] Ours Not to Reason Why. Regardless of your own thoughts on the matter, it is not proper for the affairs of high nobility to be banded about by a common barge master and his crew. You cannot stop them from gossiping, but you can at least refuse to encourage it.

I mean, Karl Franz is obviously in the right here, OOC. That's just part of his character.

I would agree that in character for Markus so far and with the information he has these are the most in character choices but out of character and considering we are taking queues from the Enemy Within role playing campaign and we know things like Deathclaw being upset enough to attack a Witch Hunter investigating something at the Imperial Zoo, so the Emperor may not be in his right mind.

The main villains of that campaign are people who are trying to manipulate the Emperor and the government of Reikland from the shadows which will tie in to our investigation I am sure since we are going to Bogenhafen.

Maugan Ra said:
Fun fact in the original version of the Enemy Within adventure, your players encounter Karl Franz in person in the last book!

He's a doddering old fool who drools everywhere and then shits himself and dies in front of you.

Then his son has a psychotic break, turns into a chaos spawn and eats Boris Todbringer.

In fairness to the authors this is because Enemy Within predates basically everything about the Empire and indeed the rest of the setting. Like the first adventure came out I think the same year as the actual tabletop game? So Karl-Franz didn't have a character, much less a tabletop model and associated lore at this point.

I thought the campaign had you find out he was getting manipulated and that one of the thing the party does is break him free of the manipulation and he recovers some what after they do that.

[X] The Emperor oversteps. The Archduke deserves a fair trial under the law, and his peers in the Reikland Diet are entitled to hear the evidence and have their voices heard. To depose a vassal by force of arms absent such processes is nothing more or less than tyranny.

Andres said:
Prove their guilt. Tell me what makes you so certain that the Jungfreuds are these sorts of people that need immediate slaughtering. You know something everyone else here doesn't, otherwise why else would you have Karl-Franz's back so strongly. Why else would you be so sure that this isn't a tyrant being a bastard.

I don't disagree with you but we are also a Witch Hunter who has shot people on our own authority. We can not rightly claim to be against summery justice but we can also say that as a Templar sworn to up hold the Laws of the Empire and Reikland in this case that the Emperor considering only the information we have at the moment may have over stepped his authority.

For example Markus may not be overly worried about trying to undo what Dieter the 4th did but that is less because he does not think it was wrong or that the man was not corrupt and more because of the time passed and the fact that Dieter was the man elected to the position of Emperor. Markus is more worried about the here and now not a piece of Treasonous activity that happened before he was alive.

@Maugan Ra boss a quick question. Considering how they weren't mentioned him Markus thought on Westerland do Marbad and the Endals being the Leader and tribe that founded Marinburg and held a part of the Westerland exist for the purpose of this quest as one of the Empire's founding Tribes and Leaders?

Zalkon · Aug 17, 2024

[X] The Emperor oversteps. The Archduke deserves a fair trial under the law, and his peers in the Reikland Diet are entitled to hear the evidence and have their voices heard. To depose a vassal by force of arms absent such processes is nothing more or less than tyranny.

Always Late · Aug 17, 2024

LucidProp said:
Because the Jungfreud's are a historic family with a long history of service to the Empire and Sigmar, and Karl Franz has yet to present any evidence to the contrary.

So the court case by a bunch of noble politicians needs to resolve before people can intervene to stop a ritual sacrifice?

Good plan.

Andres said:
Prove their guilt. Tell me what makes you so certain that the Jungfreuds are these sorts of people that need immediate slaughtering. You know something everyone else here doesn't, otherwise why else would you have Karl-Franz's back so strongly. Why else would you be so sure that this isn't a tyrant being a bastard.

Except as I already explained, that's not how Chaos or the Undead work. In fact, they benefit from people being so obsessed with stopping "a tyrant being a bastard" nobody can stop them from taking over and killing the innocent.

That's why a domestic law enforcement officer like us has the power to kill, to borrow the 40k term, " Heretics". We're basically an Inquisitor. If you don't like that there's a way to temporarily make the law take a backseat because of a biblical apocalypse getting averted, might as well just vote for Marcus to renounce his faith and leave the Order.

CrimsonOddball said:
Instead what info we have is that the charge is treason, and the source is "because I said so"

Counterpoint: this isn't 2024 where everyone with a cellphone and a coup gets live-tweeted. This is Warhammer Fantasy, and writing is a luxury reserved for the elite.

Your source is not Karl Franz. It's a couple of sailors talking about a rumor going around. You have no proof Karl's being greedy. You only have the word of two greatly removed people of whatever is going on. That's why we have the option of saying "we don't have enough info", all we're making a decision on is info from two randos.

This is misinformation working in real-time.

Second Bear · Aug 17, 2024

[X] The Emperor oversteps. The Archduke deserves a fair trial under the law, and his peers in the Reikland Diet are entitled to hear the evidence and have their voices heard. To depose a vassal by force of arms absent such processes is nothing more or less than tyranny.

Time to sharpen the guillotine. It's a two thousand years old Empire, rot has clearly set in. Why just think of the witches! Thinking they have rights and everything.

CrimsonOddball · Aug 17, 2024

Stewart9 said:
We can not rightly claim to be against summery justice but we can also say that as a Templar sworn to up hold the Laws of the Empire and Reikland in this case that the Emperor considering only the information we have at the moment may have over stepped his authority.

Always Late said:
So the court case by a bunch of noble politicians needs to resolve before people can intervene to stop a ritual sacrifice?

Good plan.

Except as I already explained, that's not how Chaos or the Undead work. In fact, they benefit from people being so obsessed with stopping "a tyrant being a bastard" nobody can stop them from taking over and killing the innocent.

That's why a domestic law enforcement officer like us has the power to kill, to borrow the 40k term, " Heretics". We're basically an Inquisitor. If you don't like that there's a way to temporarily make the law take a backseat because of a biblical apocalypse getting averted, might as well just vote for Marcus to renounce his faith and leave the Order.

We're not "basically a 40k inquisitor" for the record
Like this idea that we have the right to act unilaterally without regard for the law is actually completely incorrect

Maugan Ra said:
As a Templar, your authority derives from the Emperor and the Cult of Sigmar, and while it is significant it is by no means absolute. Your mandate permits you free travel within Sigmar's Empire and the right to interview any subject of the Emperor as you see fit, but you are not inherently endowed with the right to judge or sentence them. Instead, you are expected to restrain your suspects and bring them in for trial, where you will serve as the prosecution and obey the ruling of the court.

(Note that this policy is not absolute - Markus executed Herr Bueller in the first update for knowingly giving false testimony before Sigmar, an act of blasphemy that he as a Templar is permitted to punish accordingly. Also, as a noble in a feudal society he has the right to enact summary judgement on non-nobles who fail to offer the respect and deference due to one of his high station.)

Naturally, what you have the legal authority to do and what people will let you get away with are pretty divergent standards, more contingent on the social standing and relative popularity of your target than any legal principle… but Markus will, for personal reasons, always attempt to stay inside the boundaries of the law.

Markus can get away with skirting the law
Particularly at the fuzzy, grey areas
But he does not have the inherent ability to ignore it
If he executes someone that people actually care about without due process, he will in fact get in trouble for it
This mostly protects nobles, because feudalism, which is why him threatening those noble brats was a bluff, he had no actual authority to punish them

The Colleges of Magic would similarly get very cross with us if we tried to declare a Magister a Witch and have them burned unilaterally without fair trial or evidence
There's a reason Victor Saltzpyre was going through the effort of taking Sienna back for a trial rather than summarily executing her for her magic crimes
Note that officially, under the Articles, Magisters have the rights and protections of nobility

Always Late said:
Counterpoint: this isn't 2024 where everyone with a cellphone and a coup gets live-tweeted. This is Warhammer Fantasy, and writing is a luxury reserved for the elite.

Your source is not Karl Franz. It's a couple of sailors talking about a rumor going around. You have no proof Karl's being greedy. You only have the word of two greatly removed people of whatever is going on. That's why we have the option of saying "we don't have enough info", all we're making a decision on is info from two randos.

This is misinformation working in real-time.

Our source is the officials manning the tollgate actually
And incomplete info is immaterial to the matter

We are being asked whether or not Karl Franz has the right to strip a vassal of all their lands and holdings by force of arms without trial, without any other explanation
If we say, "no, he doesn't that's an overstepping of his authority", but it turns out that there's more to the story then our answer doesn't suddenly change

Always Late · Aug 17, 2024

CrimsonOddball said:
incomplete info is immaterial to the matter

Considering the matter turns on whether there is a reason, I would say that is very fucking material.

So you'd rather a noble title be completely above the law unless the government wins in highly biased court of noble politicians.

Great way to let Chaos win right there: Cripple the greatest Anti-Chaos leader since Magnus the Pious because "Noble Privilege" isn't being "respected" when people are being sacrificed to the Dark Gods.

CrimsonOddball said:
We are being asked whether or not Karl Franz has the right to strip a vassal of all their lands and holdings by force of arms without trial
If we say, "no, he doesn't that's an overstepping of his authority", but it turns out that there's more to the story then our answer doesn't suddenly change

And the clear, unquestionable answer is "yes, if the situation is suitably dire due to involving an existential, apocalyptic threat". We're not dealing with western democratic troubles and corruption. An army doesn't get sent in to seize one group of nobles because of tax fraud or voter suppression. It's for stuff like letting the Skaven eat the poor people alive.

Again, we have incomplete info. Jumping the gun because of projection is not a good idea here.

Somic · Aug 17, 2024

[X] The Emperor has the right. The action is legitimate, and if the proper forms were not followed, you can only trust that Karl-Franz had good cause to bypass the Diet and enact such a summary judgement upon his wayward vassal.

[X] Ours Not to Reason Why. Regardless of your own thoughts on the matter, it is not proper for the affairs of high nobility to be banded about by a common barge master and his crew. You cannot stop them from gossiping, but you can at least refuse to encourage it.

Honestly, the last one is best in the sense of "Markus really doesn't know the private details of what went down and why", but it being justified in the sense of propriety and looking down on commoners rather than Markus's own insufficient insight is what stops me from voting for it alone. We are sure not playing as a humble man xD

Andres · Aug 17, 2024

Always Late said:
We're basically an Inquisitor.

Everyone who has ever said this has been wrong about witch hunters.

CrimsonOddball · Aug 17, 2024

Always Late said:
Considering the matter turns on whether there is a reason, I would say that is very fucking material.

So you'd rather a noble title be completely above the law unless the government wins in highly biased court of noble politicians.

Great way to let Chaos win right there: Cripple the greatest Anti-Chaos leader since Magnus the Pious because "Noble Privilege" isn't being "respected" when people are being sacrificed to the Dark Gods.
And the clear, unquestionable answer is "yes, if the situation is suitably dire due to involving an existential, apocalyptic threat". We're not dealing with western democratic troubles and corruption. An army doesn't get sent in to seize one group of nobles because of tax fraud or voter suppression. It's for stuff like letting the Skaven eat the poor people alive.

Again, we have incomplete info. Jumping the gun because of projection is not a good idea here.

You've done very little to actually prove any of this "situation is suitably dire due to involving an existential, apocalyptic threat"
Besides just the constant base assumption that since it's Karl Franz those dastardly Jungfreuds must have it coming
Bit of a circular argument and begging the question besides

Not to mention putting words in my mouth
I don't recall ever stating that the law of WHF Empire protecting nobles over commoners was a good thing, just that it was the case, because it is

Though nobles aren't really "above the law" either
Markus is himself a noble after all, and what I said above about him getting in trouble if he hurts someone that people actually care about still applies
It's more that the law itself is written in a way that protects the elite a lot more than it does the common man

PlatypusofFail · Aug 17, 2024

[X] The Emperor oversteps

Markus strikes me as the type to bring back his targets for a fair trail when possible and I feel this vote best reflects that.

LotusPocus · Aug 17, 2024

[X] The Emperor oversteps. The Archduke deserves a fair trial under the law, and his peers in the Reikland Diet are entitled to hear the evidence and have their voices heard. To depose a vassal by force of arms absent such processes is nothing more or less than tyranny.

Taricus · Aug 17, 2024

[X] The Emperor has the right. The action is legitimate, and if the proper forms were not followed, you can only trust that Karl-Franz had good cause to bypass the Diet and enact such a summary judgement upon his wayward vassal.

Legionman · Aug 17, 2024

[x] The Emperor oversteps. The Archduke deserves a fair trial under the law, and his peers in the Reikland Diet are entitled to hear the evidence and have their voices heard. To depose a vassal by force of arms absent such processes is nothing more or less than tyranny.

Jonny_boy · Aug 18, 2024

[x] The Emperor oversteps. The Archduke deserves a fair trial under the law, and his peers in the Reikland Diet are entitled to hear the evidence and have their voices heard. To depose a vassal by force of arms absent such processes is nothing more or less than tyranny.

I'm mainly making this decision on the assumption that it'll effect how Max handles himself rather then any wider factors at play that we don't even have information for anyways. So on that basis, I'd rather have Max not feel like he can just break whomever's legs he feels like and ask questions later if he feels like it'll make us happy since that may get us into more trouble than it's worth.

The Enemy Within (WHF Witch Hunter Quest)

Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains

Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains

Pocky Eating MafiaDoka

One and Many

Serial Procrastinator

Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains

Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains

It's meow or never