[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
- [X] Use the power of the ring to make you ever slightly more charismatic, more charming to try and convince Shadufled to join our side
- [JK] Only seduce her once she seems to be fully on our side
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
- [X] Use the power of the ring to make you ever slightly more charismatic, more able to verbally paint the picture of the attack and the difficulty even the Gondorian Rangers had in fighting
The awesome might of the dark lord Sauron shall be used to establish our Lesbian Harem.
Why keep hammering a square peg into a round hole? We came here intending to use our 0 intimidation instead of the clear leadership option and failed so the vote is to double down and choose the option to use our 0 diplomacy?
Granted, in the current situation which option represents leadership is somewhat less clear. That said, I think appealing to Shadufled's pride and hunger to prove herself is the most likely to match with this (see the leadership roll we ended up making with Tirndis).
I'm really not against using diplomatic or intimidating approaches and being able to confidently approach different situations in different ways would be nice. But I'd encourage everyone who wants to take those approaches in the future to vote with our strengths now and then vote to work on those skills once we get the opportunity to.
[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Appeal to her Pride and Hunger to Prove Herself
[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Appeal to her Pride and Hunger to Prove Herself
I'm disappointed that people are voting to use the ring at the first sign of difficulty. Even if you think we should have voted to use the ring to begin with, what do you think it says about our character to swear to ourselves to never use the ring and then immediately use it? Over an awkward conversation with a village council?
As for Shadufled, we're on the back foot regardless of which option we pick but appealing to her pride is worth a try and it would make for good character development. It's also genuine to our personality and worldview, which may actually come across better than trying our best to be friendly.
Even if you think we should have voted to use the ring to begin with, what do you think it says about our character to swear to ourselves to never use the ring and then immediately use it? Over an awkward conversation with a village council?
That she's as susceptible to the temptation of the Rings as anyone else? Ever since we took possession of the Ring (i.e., determined not to destroy it as soon as we could) there was nothing for it but to fall, and I'm fully here for "make her worse."
That she's as susceptible to the temptation of the Rings as anyone else? Ever since we took possession of the Ring (i.e., determined not to destroy it as soon as we could) there was nothing for it but to fall, and I'm fully here for "make her worse."
Then we shouldn't we strive to fall in a way worth the telling, not in a childish fit of pique at the first sign of pushback? The very fact that we can choose not to use the ring belies the idea that going back on our own decision not to use the ring says nothing about our strength of character.
And while I see your broader point... okay, I wouldn't exactly say there aren't grave narrative consequences to picking up the ring, or that we can act like we're in a contemporary fantasy setting fully exorcised of J.R.R. Tolkien's ghost... but given the premise of the quest, I also don't think we can be completely certain what kind of story we are in yet?
Then we shouldn't we strive to fall in a way worth the telling, not in a childish fit of pique at the first sign of pushback? The very fact that we can choose not to use the ring belies the idea that going back on our own decision not to use the ring says nothing about our strength of character.
And while I see your broader point... okay, I wouldn't exactly say there aren't grave narrative consequences to picking up the ring, or that we can act like we're in a contemporary fantasy setting fully exorcised of J.R.R. Tolkien's ghost... but given the premise of the quest, I also don't think we can be completely certain what kind of story we are in yet?
The temptation to use the ring will probably keep coming up (especially the more it's used), but Arphazel isn't doomed to take a flying leap off the slippery slope and turn into an outright baby-eating monster. I do want to leave the players with some degree of narrative control.
its not exactly impossible to resist the influence of the rings. even the one, Frodo managed to resist for months. Arphazel has one of the nine, and without a master ring on the other end. so its likely that with a strong will, and the right decisions, she might be able to resist the temptation
its not exactly impossible to resist the influence of the rings. even the one, Frodo managed to resist for months. Arphazel has one of the nine, and without a master ring on the other end. so its likely that with a strong will, and the right decisions, she might be able to resist the temptation
One of Tolkein's letters said that even Gollum could've potentially held off the Ring's influence over him, though only enough to throw himself into Mount Doom with it before the Ring could break his will/Sauron reclaimed it.
its not exactly impossible to resist the influence of the rings. even the one, Frodo managed to resist for months. Arphazel has one of the nine, and without a master ring on the other end. so its likely that with a strong will, and the right decisions, she might be able to resist the temptation
Give Arphazel a little credit, she's also pretty decent at knowing the lore of the world, seeing stuff, and riding horses.
At the end of this storyline I'll toss out a couple more skill points. Though it would be hilarious if the players voted to put them in non-social skills, then keep trying to make Arphazel do diplomacy.
[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Appeal to her Pride and Hunger to Prove Herself
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
Now, I am all for using our ring's dark power to bolster our influence but I am inclined to take the other piece of advice from our dear Ebon Knight and learn how to speak without it first... At least for the conversation with Shadufled. That is about as good of a opportunity as we are gonna get for practicing our social skills. If we fail here, it's not the end of the world.
For the council meeting itself? I could go either way, but we promised ourselves not to use it for this encounter, so we won't. Not on this mission at least. That said, I do want to test it later. Like it or not, the ring is ours now. We need to know it's effects and learn how to handle using it if we are going to make the best of our situation. Besides, if it actually works how Ebon said; it would not be messing with the minds of others so much as bolstering our own presence and speaking skills. I'd be more worried about the side effects the ring might have on us then it's influence on others.
- [X] Use the power of the ring to make you ever slightly more charismatic, more able to verbally paint the picture of the attack and the difficulty even the Gondorian Rangers had in fighting
You know, I keep remembering this Russian fanfic series (actually published in book form in the 90s) where the descendant of Boromir's illegitimate son is gathering the burnt out remnants of the Nine Rings. It was stated that much of the original dark essence of the Rings was burnt out, but the imprints of the wielders' charisma and skill survived to a much larger extent.
You know, I keep remembering this Russian fanfic series (actually published in book form in the 90s) where the descendant of Boromir's illegitimate son is gathering the burnt out remnants of the Nine Rings. It was stated that much of the original dark essence of the Rings was burnt out, but the imprints of the wielders' charisma and skill survived to a much larger extent.
There was only one way forward after the mess of a first meeting with Túnincel's council: I needed to talk to Shadufled. As long as she kept pushing against me I wouldn't make any progress with the rest of them. Maybe that was even their plan: make me argue with the one person there who was a younger woman like me, so the elders could dismiss us both as kids arguing and do nothing. Even if it wasn't, I couldn't hope to have a productive conversation if she challenged me every time I opened my mouth.
Of course, winning her over was much easier said than done. Despite my recent forays into serving as a diplomat, I was a soldier at heart. Pity I couldn't stab an Orc in front of her and the other villagers to prove that the threat was real.
I am sure we could arrange that, if you really wanted to, Ebon offered. Bind an Orc to your service and have it stage an attack, or we could find a way to induce the Orcs to strike this village. The only problem would be arranging that within a reasonable timeframe. After a long pause the wraith saw fit to add, And the moral objections, of course.
We're not that desperate, I answered the spectre. Those sorts of lies have a way of coming out eventually, and I can't build a free Nurn on lies. Let's not resort to mad schemes to fabricate an Orc attack when just talking to people is still an option.
I ignored the Nazgûl's annoyed grumbles in the back of my mind as I finished off the last of my dinner and searched the room for my target. Now that the meeting had broken up the Councilers had split up across several tables, talking amongst themselves exchanging small talk and gossip.
Like a patient hunter, I waited until my target was isolated, after the last of the elders finished conveying their wishes for her father's swift recovery. As soon as Shadufled was alone I made my move, walking over and taking a seat across from her while politely ignoring the raised eyebrow and skeptical look she met me with. "I don't think we really had a chance to talk before we dove straight into discussing politics. I was hoping—"
"That if you could talk to me one-on-one you could change my mind?" she finished for me, annoyingly but not inaccurately. She let out a resigned sigh and signaled for a refill of her ale. "I don't see the point. We've both made our positions perfectly clear. You think the frontier is in danger and want to do everything you can to protect it. I think you overestimate the danger of a few Orc bandits and underestimate the danger of all the measures you're taking to stop them. Tyrants love nothing more than pointing to an enemy and demanding they be given absolute power to combat them. Even if Captain Tigkiz isn't like that, can you be certain that the next Captain won't be? Or that we'll agree on what the threats even are? What if she believes that some Haradrim merchants are spying for the Orcs, or that the Gondorians aren't a problem even as they dig in and set down roots in Nurn?"
"Then we'll talk," I answered her. "That's how we solve disagreements in Nurn. Why are you so convinced that the instant we have a military and give someone a little authority, they'll turn into a power-mad tyrant?"
Shadufled scoffed and shook her head. "Sometimes you really can't help reminding us all that you're not really one of us." She downed half her mug of ale and let out a long, resigned sigh. "Fine, if you really want to understand…" She turned around so her back was to me and lifted her shirt enough to show off something far too many of Nurn's people had: faded whip scars. If we were around the same age then that would mean she'd been whipped when she was only—
I swallowed the bile rising up in my throat. "There was truly no limit to the Orcs' cruelty."
"Orcs?" She let out a bitter laugh as she let her shirt fall to cover the scars once more. "That would make for a cleaner story, wouldn't it? No, the hand that wielded this whip was a human one. Not even one of the administrators, another slave. They were happy to turn on their own for a few small scraps of authority and an extra crust of bread. It was a clever idea, whipping the workers makes them less productive while they healed, but their children…" She downed the rest of her ale in a single mighty gulp. "I've seen how even a small scrap of power can turn Men into monsters as bad as any Orc. Never again."
I grimaced and struggled to find any words to answer her. What could I even say in the face of such an experience? "That's not—Tigkiz and I are trying to make an army to ensure that nobody could ever do something like that again. If we can't defend ourselves from external threats…" I trailed off weakly. My words seemed hollow in the face of the scars on her back.
I grimaced and shifted tactics. "I'm sorry that happened to you."
She sighed and waved my words away. "It's old history, and your hand wasn't the one wielding the whip. I don't need an apology from you. We hanged all the collaborators who didn't get killed by Gondor or deserters. I remember one of them insisted that he had no choice, that the Orcs or masters would've whipped us if he didn't, and they would've been even crueler about it. Maybe that was true, or maybe it was what he told himself in the dark of the night, when he had no company but his own gnawing guilt from what remained of his conscience after so many years of cruelty. I suppose it was true in one respect: so long as there are slaves and masters, there will be a hand wielding the whip."
I felt the need to speak up at that point. "But there are no slaves and masters in the force we're trying to assemble. Just free people working together to defend themselves from Orcs."
"Is that truly what you believe, Lieutenant?" Shadufled raised an eyebrow. "Not all slaves and masters are denoted by shackles and whips. You would expect your commands to be obeyed absolutely and without question by those beneath you in the military, correct? You would also punish any soldier who refused to follow your orders. I would not call that freedom."
I let out a resigned sigh. "That's how armies work, yes. If we didn't have some sort of command structure it would devolve into chaos as every soldier acted on their own initiative with no regard for the larger plan, and we'd lose every battle we fought." A vague memory of my time back in Umbar sprang to mind. "I suppose I see it as something similar to how the corsairs ran their ships in Umbar. Every vessel had a captain whose orders were not to be questioned during combat or any other crisis, but after the battle's over the crew could remove them from power with a vote, or leave the ship whenever it was in port."
"That sounds reasonable on its face," Shadufled conceded. "But once Men become accustomed to following orders in one context, it becomes easier for them to continue doing so."
"One could say the same of any form of leadership," I pointed out. "Nobody accuses to a builder leading their community in raising a barn of being a tyrant in the making." I held up a hand to cut off the inevitable objection. "I know those two situations are not perfectly analogous, but I think the larger point still stands. Our militia fighters would not become unthinking drones just because they follow Tigkiz's orders on the battlefield. If she ordered them to turn on their own, she would either be removed from power or the entire force would disperse and return to their homes."
"If it were as simple as that no army would ever turn against their own people, yet Sauron and other kings seem to have no trouble convincing them to do so." she countered. "No matter what safeguards you put in place or reassurances you offer, creating a group of armed people answerable to a single individual is dangerous."
She is a stubborn one, Ebon murmured within my mind. Or rather, she holds fast to her dislike of militarism and power structures in the face of any other argument. Not without reason. I do fancy trying to see if we could parlay a victory over the Orcs into a crown upon your head. Or your captain's, if you insist on clinging to false modesty. I wonder if it is even possible to shift her from her position. I do not think we can convince her to drop her objections completely.
Maybe we shouldn't try, I pointed out. She's probably not the only former slave who's going to be wary of any military we create no matter how much we promise it isn't a prelude to tyranny. The one thing all of Nurn's people agree on is that they never want to risk being put in chains again. Perhaps instead of trying to make her see things our way, we need to work on meeting her halfway.
I cleared my throat. "So what would you propose, then? Even if you don't think the current situation with the Orcs is as terrible as we fear, it seems prudent to have some sort of plan in place. Orcs are not the only danger. How long will it be before Gondor decides to spread their influence to us, or a Haradrim or Easterling king decides to add us to their realm? If all of Nurn faces a collective threat we will need to act together to fight it. How would you propose we do so?"
That question seemed to catch the other woman off-guard, and she took some time to consider her answer. "I don't see why we can't just have all our militia work together as individual groups. If we need more organization than we already have, I suppose we could have the various captains meet and decide on someone to lead them while they need to work together."
"So in essence you are fine with working with myself and Captain Tigkiz, but draw the line at any appearance of working for us?" I summarized. "I truly hope we haven't had all this trouble over a mere difference in semantics."
"It's not quite that simple," Shadufled agreed, "but I suppose that is what much of my concerns center on. I'm not opposed to helping the frontier in any way that doesn't create an unnecessary risk of tyranny. The sort of commitment you want with permanent garrison troops under Tigkiz's command is just too much."
"Then what do you think would be more reasonable?" I leaned back in my chair. "If we can get the help we need, we're pretty flexible about most of the details. If there are any changes we can make or concessions we can offer that would help you feel safer, I can at least hear you out." Especially since Shadufled's concerns wouldn't be unique. Even if I felt like Nurn needed strong leadership, a lot of the former slaves didn't agree. Offering a few assurances that Tigkiz or I wouldn't immediately clap them all back in chains the instant we had a little power was hardly a burden. We wanted leadership, not tyranny.
Shadufled took a bit to think it over before she answered. "I didn't hate your suggestion of modeling things after how Umbari Corsairs organized themselves. Electing our officers, and being able to remove them anytime outside of combat, that kind of thing We kind of already do that in most of our militias, but we never really sat down and hammered it all out into rules. There's usually not even a formal election so much as everyone just kind of coming to a consensus about who the best captain would be."
She tapped her chin thoughtfully. "Maybe we could also split up and rotate command of the forts to prevent too much power centralizing in anyone's hands or anyone getting too entrenched. Plus some formal declarations that all militia service is and will perpetually be voluntary. Even if it could be an empty promise, I want it said on the record to all of Nurn. Plus that way if you ever go against that promise, it will be easier to call you out for breaking it."
Dangerous promises to make, Ebon whispered into my ear. An army is just a mob of panicked fools held together by iron discipline. An army where any soldier can quit whenever they want and elect officers who promise them plentiful rations and no fighting would quickly become a pack of indolent leeches. The first time you try to put them through combat drills half your recruits would give up and go home. Not to mention such a force would be completely useless as a springboard to securing more power than you already have.
I'm pretty sure making the army completely useless as a starting point for seizing power is the entire point of her demands, I pointed out. Though Ebon wasn't wrong to bring that up. Making these promises would give me the forces I needed from the Heartland villages, assuming we could win over the other village leaders, but Captain Tigkiz might not be happy about having so many caveats on her ability to command her forces. Assuming they would even be hers, since they could easily vote her out and choose someone else. It seemed likely that each village would want one of their own to command them.
Of course, there would be some opportunities with these elections, Ebon murmured. Assuming you get over your squeamishness about using the power at your disposal. Imagine if you could sway people's minds to choose you as their general...
That was an interesting thought, but even if I was willing to use the Ring to do that, I couldn't keep that up forever. It wasn't a matter of winning one vote and then never needing to worry again, with Shadufled's proposal my troops could leave or vote me out any time they wanted. I doubted the Ring could keep all their wills suppressed indefinitely. Not even Sauron had ever done such a thing, and he had far more power than one damaged ring and the shattered remnants of a Nazgûl. Even if I could swallow my moral objections, it wasn't practical.
Shadufled sat patiently across from me, waiting for an answer.
[ ] Agree To Her Terms
Nurn's Militia will have formal elections for all officers
Officers can be removed at any time outside of combat
All militia service is strictly voluntary and soldiers can leave any time outside of combat
Commanders will rotate out to prevent them from consolidating power
Hrm. I would prefer to change strictly voluntary service to universal and equal liability for service ("voluntarism" is a recipe for a poverty draft), but equal liability pretty much has to be measured in years of service and that's not really possible without a census of some kind. A feat of state capacity of which Nurn is not presently capable.
[ ] Counterproposal/Negotiate
- [ ] Nurn's Militia will have formal elections for all officers with 5 years term
- [ ] Officers can be removed at anytime by a majority of all officers
- [ ] Officers can be removed during peacetime only by the consent of both their regiment and their village/town community
- [ ] All volunteers, excluding professionals, may deenlist during peacetime at will
- [ ] Commanders will rotate out biannually to prevent them from consolidating power
With the level of state capability, or lack thereof, we have in Nurn a loose elected system is not a bad idea. We don't have the capacity to keep people in the ranks if they and their communities feel they have done enough (removing the stigma of desertion), so we may as well not try.
Elected officers have a history in a variety of contexts. Frontier militias during America's expansion, units in various revolutionary forces. There were periods where the Roman legions chose Centurions, Decani, and Decurions by election.
It's a strategy with some pitfalls, but in our situation it may be a better solution than a top down command structure.
An army where any soldier can quit whenever they want and elect officers who promise them plentiful rations and no fighting would quickly become a pack of indolent leeches.
Unkle Nazgul speaks sense once again. There are indeed some historical examples of elected officiers, but those are few and far between because it's objectively a dogshit way of organizing your military. Combined with completely voluntary service and obligatory rotation of commanders, it will create a fighting force that is of absolute no use for anything. The last two chapters is kinda an example of how it will work, with people like Shadufled essentialy arguing against fighting a very real orcish threat that is destroying their neighbors lives here and now because they fear some nebulous specter of tyranny in the distant future. This idea is both unpractical and out of character for Arphazêl, a monarchist, to agree to. And I don't see how we can reach an acceptable compromise, so:
[X] Refuse Her Terms
[X] Counterproposal/Negotiate
- [X] Nurn's Militia will have formal elections for all officers with 5 years term
- [X] Officers can be removed at anytime by a majority of all officers
- [X] Officers can be removed during peacetime only by the consent of both their regiment and their village/town community
- [X] All volunteers, excluding professionals, may deenlist during peacetime at will
- [X] Commanders will rotate out biannually to prevent them from consolidating power
With the level of state capability, or lack thereof, we have in Nurn a loose elected system is not a bad idea. We don't have the capacity to keep people in the ranks if they and their communities feel they have done enough (removing the stigma of desertion), so we may as well not try.
Elected officers have a history in a variety of contexts. Frontier militias during America's expansion, units in various revolutionary forces. There were periods where the Roman legions chose Centurions and Recursions by election.
It's a strategy with some pitfalls, but in our situation it may be a better solution than a top down command structure.
In general I agree, but the current terms seems excessive. The ability to vote out your officer at any time is a certain recipe to corruption, and the 'you can leave any time' will ensure desertion before any hardship. There is a reason desertion is a crime you know-if half your soldiers leave the night before a battle, the other half will die
"- [ ] All volunteers, excluding professionals, may deenlist during peacetime at will" I don't think she'll accept that as she'll point out there's nothing stopping whoever ends up in charge from simply never calling peace. Perhaps mix it with a limit during wartime? Something like "During times of war volunteers may deenlist after a service period of 2 years or choose to renew their service."
In general I agree, but the current terms seems excessive. The ability to vote out your officer at any time is a certain recipe to corruption, and the 'you can leave any time' will ensure desertion before any hardship. There is a reason desertion is a crime you know-if half your soldiers leave the night before a battle, the other half will die
There are 2 major problems with it. The first is that it conflicts with the virtue of election of officers: making sure that the person giving the orders is the person who will be obeyed.
In a lot of modern systems the role of officers flows out of the social hierarchy that produced those systems; a land owning aristocracy and those beneath. You draw officers from the land owning class and the enlisted men from their social lessers, with the intention that a given body of men will be commanded by the man who gives them orders in civilian life or a close relative of that man.
There is an obvious problem here for us, Nurn has no established gentry. The central council lacks sufficient authority to compel anyone to stick around with any force other than social shame for letting down immediate neighbors. But the council can't even apply that if all the neighbors from a particular village all agree they have done enough. Trying to impose officers will make desertion more likely not less. An elected officer will have some power of moral suasion, while one imposed may not have any legitimacy in the eyes of the soldiers. And again, we have no power to coerce anyone to fight for us, if we can't persuade them of the necessity of the conflict they will go home, and if their community supports that decision then the council will have no bite to it's decisions. If the power to impel soldiers to action cannot come from the power of the central state, which it cannot because we have essentially no central state, it has to come from the soldiers. Making them choose someone other than the one they trust most every 6 months could lead to situation where soldiers are looking at 2 different individuals in a moment of battle.
The second is that it will do absolutely nothing to stop 'slate' voting. If Arphazel runs around shoring up support for Tigkiz there is nothing to stop Tigkiz from rallying support for Arphazel in 6 months time and then acting as her advisor, and then swapping again in 6 months.
Unkle Nazgul speaks sense once again. There are indeed some historical examples of elected officiers, but those are few and far between because it's objectively a dogshit way of organizing your military. Combined with completely voluntary service and obligatory rotation of commanders, it will create a fighting force that is of absolute no use for anything.
This is historically untrue. The practice of voting in the western European tradition actually rises out of military aristocracies, the parlements of France and post conquest England, the Witangemot of Anglo Saxon England and other related instituitions. Voting for officers was frequently a component of medieval mercenary companies, and while those may have been awful people they were not militarily ineffective. Organizing your military on the principle that the man who can rally the most people to shout for them in the camp is also the person who can rally those same people for battle isn't crazy.
The real problem is that both our Nazgul and Shadufled are wrong about something: if Shadufled believes this will stop tyranny she is a fool. Roman legions whose lower officers were elected sometimes did acclaim officers all the way naming them Emperor. Once you establish that a body of armed men can choose their leadership, not have it imposed by the existing government institutions, then the path to power is clear. We would be a couple of bouts of post battle exuberance away from Tigkiz or Arhazel being declared Queen.
We don't have elected officers in our current social order for a reason, and not the reason people are told: forces with elected officers are often extremely effective, but no one wants an Oliver Cromwell or a Julius Caesar in their political system. Or a Maximinius Thrax, for a more direct but less famous example. Situations where officers are acclaimed by their men make commanders into political actors because they don't need the state bureaucracy for their power. The result is systems where leaders can more easily find themselves leading a political power block, sometimes without even intending the block to form.
The second is that it will do absolutely nothing to stop 'slate' voting. If Arphazel runs around shoring up support for Tigkiz there is nothing to stop Tigkiz from rallying support for Arphazel in 6 months time and then acting as her advisor, and then swapping again in 6 months.
What if position was rotated between the villages or decided via a council of the village leaders with each village putting forth a candidate? Sorta how the UN Security Council - the Big 5 or the NATO Secretary General is chosen.
