Max Uristwell
Custodian of the Toobs
- Location
- United Kingdom
Interesting take on Radahn and Morgott, @Naron; especially when Radahn's title is explicitly that of an expeditionary commander in the original Japanese (and hence he'd have a perfectly good reason to think that his forces weren't necessary to defend the capital, since they wouldn't be with him in the first place otherwise) and the opening cutscene depicts Morgott driving off a younger Radahn's forces in his Margit guise (Redmane lordsworn and foot soldier helmets visible on the right of this picture, even if the guy being stabbed up by Big M isn't Radahn himself pre-hugening).
Not going 'no, you're wrong', just that it's an interpretation I've not seen before.
EDIT 1: The reason I specified that I wasn't calling it wrong is that the sword monuments kind of do bear out a bleaker version of your story; the First Defence of Leyndell (LMAO Godrick's attack wasn't even impressive enough to count as a battle) was apparently fought within it as an alliance to defend the city collapsed (or was induced to collapse; ffs Ranni), and the Second Defence of Leyndell was almost certainly the Morgott-led (as Margit) Leyndell troops against the Redmanes (there are only three armies whose members could be described as 'champions', IIRC, and neither Haligtree forces nor its own army ever attacked Leyndell). So Morgott and Radahn may have worked together to repel early attacks, but then had a falling out - Radahn probably wanted to follow in his idol's footsteps and assumed that it was Morgott, and not the Erdtree itself, that was denying him access to the imprisoned Marika.
EDIT 2: Either way, it'll be interesting to see what this longer-lasting version of the alliance has had on Morgott's opinion of his fellow demigods, since it'd show him that they weren't all duty-shirking opportunists like they were in canon.
EDIT 3: Also, for the benefit of the thread, this pretty much confirms that Miquella made it, since three of the four potential MCs have now been met:
[] Kindness, nearly drowned in blood yet undeterred (Miquella, because nobody else fits even remotely)
[] Naked ambition, unfulfilled even as fate burns to ash (Ranni, because Rykard and Mohg were never about defying fate specifically)
[] A guardian bereft of purpose, once felled and twice blossomed (Melania, duh)
[] The last king of a crumbled realm, moving ever onward (King Morgott, Last of all Kings)
EDIT 4: Man, I've got to learn to go to bed before replying to a new quest instead of writing these on 20+ hours without sleep, I left out so much every time I tried.
Not going 'no, you're wrong', just that it's an interpretation I've not seen before.
EDIT 1: The reason I specified that I wasn't calling it wrong is that the sword monuments kind of do bear out a bleaker version of your story; the First Defence of Leyndell (LMAO Godrick's attack wasn't even impressive enough to count as a battle) was apparently fought within it as an alliance to defend the city collapsed (or was induced to collapse; ffs Ranni), and the Second Defence of Leyndell was almost certainly the Morgott-led (as Margit) Leyndell troops against the Redmanes (there are only three armies whose members could be described as 'champions', IIRC, and neither Haligtree forces nor its own army ever attacked Leyndell). So Morgott and Radahn may have worked together to repel early attacks, but then had a falling out - Radahn probably wanted to follow in his idol's footsteps and assumed that it was Morgott, and not the Erdtree itself, that was denying him access to the imprisoned Marika.
EDIT 2: Either way, it'll be interesting to see what this longer-lasting version of the alliance has had on Morgott's opinion of his fellow demigods, since it'd show him that they weren't all duty-shirking opportunists like they were in canon.
EDIT 3: Also, for the benefit of the thread, this pretty much confirms that Miquella made it, since three of the four potential MCs have now been met:
[] Kindness, nearly drowned in blood yet undeterred (Miquella, because nobody else fits even remotely)
[] Naked ambition, unfulfilled even as fate burns to ash (Ranni, because Rykard and Mohg were never about defying fate specifically)
[] A guardian bereft of purpose, once felled and twice blossomed (Melania, duh)
[] The last king of a crumbled realm, moving ever onward (King Morgott, Last of all Kings)
EDIT 4: Man, I've got to learn to go to bed before replying to a new quest instead of writing these on 20+ hours without sleep, I left out so much every time I tried.
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[X] Hug Ranni, she must be confused
This is too funny to pass...
Edit: Thinking about it, the Explain one is probably not the best one to win.
[x] Grant some understanding of us to Malenia.
-[x] We are but watchers and guides, here to see the world, not rule it.
This is too funny to pass...
Edit: Thinking about it, the Explain one is probably not the best one to win.
[x] Grant some understanding of us to Malenia.
-[x] We are but watchers and guides, here to see the world, not rule it.
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ScissorSlipper
Barber cat
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[x] Grant some understanding of us to Malenia.
-[x] We are but watchers and guides, here to see the world, not rule it.
-[x] We are but watchers and guides, here to see the world, not rule it.
*after the hugging*
Malenia: "No one will ever believe you..."
Ranni: *gets a thousand yard stare*
[x] Grant some understanding of us to Malenia.
-[x] We are but watchers and guides, here to see the world, not rule it.
-[x] We are but watchers and guides, here to see the world, not rule it.
- Location
- The North
- Pronouns
- It/Its
[x] Grant some understanding of us to Malenia.
-[x] We are but watchers and guides, here to see the world, not rule it.
-[x] We are but watchers and guides, here to see the world, not rule it.
There's actually an another case against Ranni, which i didn't see was mentioned in the thread. At the end of her questline, both combat capable of her counselors (Iji and Blaidd) are surrounded by Black Knife corpses, conveniently when she doesn't need them anymore, Blaidd is stated to be a traitor, and Iji in his dialogue says that:
So he knows about upcoming death, and there's no real reason for him to be traitor, especially with the state of Lands Between and the Golden Order. He also worked for Carians for a long time, as stated in his dialogue. I don't know about you guys, but overall Ranni's story seems about treachery and deceptions. Unlike Miquella, who tries to build a better world at Haligtree, and protects his subjects with army and his sister's might, Ranni's just chilling for most of Shattering.
She's a Carian princess, but doesn't seem to care about her subjects at all, and does nothing when Carians got overthrown by rogue mages of Raya Lucaria and Cuckoo knights. The only time she directly interferes is when the player tries to kill Renala.
She also explicitly states in her dialogue
So i wouldn't put much trust in Ranni, especially since Malenia is exactly part of "what came before"
So he knows about upcoming death, and there's no real reason for him to be traitor, especially with the state of Lands Between and the Golden Order. He also worked for Carians for a long time, as stated in his dialogue. I don't know about you guys, but overall Ranni's story seems about treachery and deceptions. Unlike Miquella, who tries to build a better world at Haligtree, and protects his subjects with army and his sister's might, Ranni's just chilling for most of Shattering.
She's a Carian princess, but doesn't seem to care about her subjects at all, and does nothing when Carians got overthrown by rogue mages of Raya Lucaria and Cuckoo knights. The only time she directly interferes is when the player tries to kill Renala.
She also explicitly states in her dialogue
So i wouldn't put much trust in Ranni, especially since Malenia is exactly part of "what came before"
What I mean by controlling the narrative is that she will be the one explaining to Malenia, therefore, all information in that case will be filtrated by her own prejudices and opinions.
We already have a case of this right there, she is describing our control in a very negative way, implying that Malenia is but a puppet on strings, and that we are no better than the Greater Will due to that.
Never underestimate how much control you can have on information when only one side gets to tell it. Just a difference of some words can do a lot.*
We are better served by revealing ourselves than by letting her be the sole source of exposition and potentially poison the well for later, a thing that, as I said, she is already doing.
*For example, something I saw recently on the news:
If I tell you: *Thousands of people have manifested against something in a city*, how do you feel about it?
You see the word thousands, you will instantly begin to think that it was several thousands, that it was big.
Now if I tell you: *1 500 people have manifested against something in the capital city of Greece*, how do you feel about that one?
1 500 is not much, not for a manifestation in the middle of a capital, you see it as not that big of an event.
The two headlines are for the same event, and I did see the both of them.
See how that works?
Are you sure you want to let Ranni, a woman we know is hostile to being like us and the very idea of being puppeted, to be the one to explain us?
That's asking for problems, there is a high chance she poison the well and makes some future decision harder to pass, even involuntarily.
Better to show our hand ourself.
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I'm interested in character interactions and how we can affect them due to our decisions , not in being a direct character in a story.
Your opinion is your own
Problem is, the cat is out of the box, we are a character in the story, and nothing can change that.
We have been acknowledged, and Ranni will not remove the fact that we are separate from Malenia by being the one to explain, in fact, she will probably tell Malenia to try and not listen to us.
That's literally one of her main thing, the desire to remove all outside interventions from the world.
You won't get us to stop existing just by trying to pretend we don't.
No one is pretending that we don't exist, I just think that shoving it into their faces just like that makes little sense.
If Malenia needs us, she can ask, and we'll answer.
I mean, Ranni is basically asking us to show ourself if that's what you are basing your thoughts on....
Wouldn't it be polite to answer?
I made sure to phrase my vote in a way that wouldn't lead to us controlling Malenia for that choice, only give her information.
Which, by the way, every single other vote is about controlling Malenia in some ways, giving evidences for Ranni's fear of us begin a puppeteer and her sister nothing than a puppet right now.
Hugging Ranni? That's us doing it as far as she's concerned.
Asking to explain? We are playing the idiot, pretending we don't know what she means.
At least acknowledge that we are there directly, instead of going around for no reason.
i think that's what Nyarky is trying to do. if Ranni gets the chance to explain it, she will make paint us in a bad light. to make it so that Malenia won't listen to us, let alone ask in the first place.
just trying to explain "we are just some watcher, not some hostile force trying to control her" rather than whatever Ranni might spin up.
Yes!
I want to put the ball in Malenia's court, not take control as every other vote does.
Actually, I am going to point out right there that you are moving the goal post here:
You did say that you didn't want to be a character in a story, that is saying you don't want to acknowledge we exists.
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Malenia is her own person with her own life and she is the one in control, what you're referring to is Ranni trying to paint us as a malevolent force, and that made you try to explain that we're just watchers etc.
My personal belief is that we have no need to explain anything to anyone
That's not what the two posts say.
The fist says that you do not want to be a character in a story, so that you do not want us to be acknowledged in the story.
The second is you telling you do not want to pretend we don't exist.
That is a perfect example of why I don't want to let Ranni be the one the explain, you may well have thought you were talking about only my vote, but your phrasing was not telling that, it was telling that you didn't want us to be an entity at all.
And why do you not want to explain ourselves?
We are going to have a relation with Malenia, no matter what, Ranni made sure of that.
Refusing to acknowledge that is not going to lead to any form of effective cooperation.
You seem to think that my vote is incredibly intrusive, for some reason, it is not, it is just some informations, it's not as if I voted for something like this:
[Nope] Take direct control of Malenia and begin explaining your life goals to Ranni, all the while acting as if her body was naught but a puppet.
That would be what you seem to treat my vote as.
Why are you so insistent that we have to directly influence anything as a character?
It's Malenia's quest, not quest of Voices inside Malenia's head.
I don't pretend that we don't exist, I just don't think that as a character without prior history and being a literal amalgamation of votes for one option or another, we have a logical reason to act like that
Ah, I see.
Sorry to say, but from experience form Naron's quests, no.
This is not Malenia's story, not directly, this is the story of how we guide her.
Us influencing things will always happen, we already did it, every vote is us influencing things.
As for reasons?
We don't need a reason other than the fast that we want to, because we exists, and our characterization if done by our votes.
And frankly, no logical reason? Really? When I explained several times why we would benefit from doing so and be hurt by not doing it?
We are not *an amalgamation of votes for one option or another* as far as the story's concerned, Ranni saw us, WE ARE THERE in the world, we exists, not as the result of votes but as an actual entity that can be interacted with.
Edit:
In fact, I just checked, you were there for Bloody evolution, you know how it works, and you know that we being a distinct entity is a thing.
I really don't see why you insist on wanting to act as if it wasn't.
We did have times when we interacted with Binah in answer to some events, I am just doing to same here.
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Binah quest was the one where we were like that, Ciel's wasn't.
What I'm trying to say is that we don't have to so the same thing.
No point arguing, better to wait for next Monday
You seem to have missed the fact that we are in the situation of Binah's quest, not Ciel's.
Ranni is already interacting with us, I don't see how you can pretend we can go back to not being there.