A Rat's Guide to Glory
- Thread starter Naron
- Start date
- Location
- America
Ok, so all dead loved ones, no explicit mind control but does effect perception with the strong possibility of mind-reading, which would allow them to 'predict' attacks assuming the attacks were already planned at that point in time and they read the plans from someone and used them in their sermon, or they simply used their ability to appear as someone else to discretely meet with said gangs and plan said attacks.
Given they appeared as loved ones to multiple people simultaneously, I would propose that they don't necessarily have complete control over the form they take simply because that would take too much focus to maintain and give a sermon on for a human (at least without expensive specialized augs) thus they could be giving some sort of instruction to their 'tech' or whatever is the source of the ability to make them look like a dead loved one and focus on either digging up info on this loved one from the mind of who their focusing on, or, ask the 'ability' to relay a personal story of the loved one from the target's memory to them, Thus presenting the illusion of the loved one being there. Or they simply can only appear as a explicitly dead loved one and use this ability to both discretely gather info and play prophet with the subjects believing it simply by how convincing a illusion made of their own memories is.
The worse it could possibly be, I think, is if they are a Mysterio level illusionist with full on mind-reading, but if they could do that, they never would have allowed anyone to get on stage to attack him, nor let it end in the guards taking them away when they theoretically could have spotted them in advance in the crowd and either make a show of it and 'talk' them down with the advantage of mindreading/illusion'ing it into something that makes them look good, or had the guards take them away before they got on stage.
We don't know what the range limit on the 'illusion part' of ability is, if it has one and is not some form of memetic hazard. However, given we haven't been mysteriously ambushed yet, than the mind reading part probably doesn't extend all that far outside the building or requires some form of concentrated effort/focus.
Again, I feel like Shooting them with a Sniper Rifle from a building over would work...But maybe I just really like Sniper Rifles. I also think shooting them from within the crowd of church goers could work like an Assassin's Creed character could work as long as a specific mindset is maintained or Giano with their moonstone is the one to do it.
Honestly, I feel like the best approach would be calling in the favor, telling the assassin about the mind reading and the illusions of dead loved one and leaving them to plan the assassination, asking them to tell us the minimum needed on how they intend to do it, so that way we don't give away the plan via mind-reading in case we have a role to play in it. But I'm sure someone can think up something better.
Given they appeared as loved ones to multiple people simultaneously, I would propose that they don't necessarily have complete control over the form they take simply because that would take too much focus to maintain and give a sermon on for a human (at least without expensive specialized augs) thus they could be giving some sort of instruction to their 'tech' or whatever is the source of the ability to make them look like a dead loved one and focus on either digging up info on this loved one from the mind of who their focusing on, or, ask the 'ability' to relay a personal story of the loved one from the target's memory to them, Thus presenting the illusion of the loved one being there. Or they simply can only appear as a explicitly dead loved one and use this ability to both discretely gather info and play prophet with the subjects believing it simply by how convincing a illusion made of their own memories is.
The worse it could possibly be, I think, is if they are a Mysterio level illusionist with full on mind-reading, but if they could do that, they never would have allowed anyone to get on stage to attack him, nor let it end in the guards taking them away when they theoretically could have spotted them in advance in the crowd and either make a show of it and 'talk' them down with the advantage of mindreading/illusion'ing it into something that makes them look good, or had the guards take them away before they got on stage.
We don't know what the range limit on the 'illusion part' of ability is, if it has one and is not some form of memetic hazard. However, given we haven't been mysteriously ambushed yet, than the mind reading part probably doesn't extend all that far outside the building or requires some form of concentrated effort/focus.
Again, I feel like Shooting them with a Sniper Rifle from a building over would work...But maybe I just really like Sniper Rifles. I also think shooting them from within the crowd of church goers could work like an Assassin's Creed character could work as long as a specific mindset is maintained or Giano with their moonstone is the one to do it.
Honestly, I feel like the best approach would be calling in the favor, telling the assassin about the mind reading and the illusions of dead loved one and leaving them to plan the assassination, asking them to tell us the minimum needed on how they intend to do it, so that way we don't give away the plan via mind-reading in case we have a role to play in it. But I'm sure someone can think up something better.
She dodge for quite some time before they changed their tactics to adapt and finally touched her, and she isn't a combatant at the time, I'd say that does show how worthless guns are in the City.
Everyone and their mother can dodge/parry bullets.
We see what *Sniper Rifle* does in the City, here:
View: https://youtu.be/ZmeuMDK9HTg?t=423
Once again, I want to remind, this is against a noncombatant, from an office that specialize in guns, and she still dodged the bullets and they actually had to put in efforts to hit her.
We are not specialized in guns, we won't hit anyone.
And we don't need the assassin, as I said, it is better to attack with more than one person, to minimalize the amount of manipulation that the Prophet can do.
Edit:
Adn even if we managed to hit with a bullet, they cost so much I wouldn't be surprised if we lost money on the job by doing this, the City really doesn't want anyone to have guns.
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- Location
- America
Lies and Slander! that example is an exceptional situation followed by an exceptional situation, Pre-cog and a Color, neither of which are everyone and their mother
While I do think having multiple people attack is a good idea, is their anyway to get them without their followers or make the followers a non-issue?
EDIT: Punctuation
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Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
[X] Rush in once it starts, just hit them fast and hard before they can react
Lies and Slander! that example is an exceptional situation followed by an exceptional situation, Pre-cog and a Color, neither of which are everyone and their mother
The thing is, the mechanics disagree with you, ranged attacks can be parried by anyone, no need to be exceptional, the only thing Argalia gets as a color is outright immunity, but you can perfectly parry bullets using a rat book.
Everyone and their mother I say.
Edit:
It is an issue for the assassin too anyway, since a big part of the problem is that we don't know what the target will look like.
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- Location
- Earth
Ciel can not afford a gun at this moment, much less the bullets to use it.
As an aside, I feel we should give Eileen a pass in the discussion because she explicitely just got spliced with a mind-enhancing gear that still seemed to be aware (and she had at least two of them), who apparently warned her of the ambush about to go down. The Church of Gears was also an Urban Plague or Urban Nightmare, I forget which. As the leader, she would already be dead if she could not at least keep herself safe.
Those are my thoughts on the matter.
I'm for a plan where we try to turn the crowd against the prophet, as it means not only do we get to save the favor but also our work is practically done for us at that point. Maybe the reason they dodge is that doing something out of character for the people they are imitating (such as being able to trade blows with a Grade 6) would break the illusion. If that's the case, rushing in would probably have the best results, since if they dodge three mid-level fixers and a Hana fixer some people will raise questions. We could also spend the week looking into what the prophet is using and how to break it. If the prophet poses as dead loved ones, then maybe finding the actual person they're posing as and bringing them in would help break someone out and start a chain reaction amongst the crowd. Just some ideas.
MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
- Location
- DOOR STUCK DOOR STUCK PLEASE I BEG U
I actually got bit of a plan forming in my head. But I very much want to keep that Shi favor in our pocket for the Hana exam. It shows that we can make connections and use favors effectively, which are all things Hana likes.
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
Thats what you all need to remember. This isn't the exam.
Sure Giano could put it on our resume for us, but it'd be WAY less effective than Ciel using the favor DURING the exam, and wowing the ACTUAL judges.
It's why I made my vote like this.
[] Rush in once it starts, hit them fast and hard before they can react
-[] Call your favor with Shadow the Shi assassin to take care of the prophet during the chaos
If you are going to use the favor, then use her in a way that doesn't leave her doing everything on her own. Sure, we could inform her that theres illusions and shit and leave her to assassinate on her own.
But doing it like this work extra well.
1. It creates chaos, and probably make the prophet put in extra effort to keep the illusion up.
2. It will force the Prophet to choose between running away, or staying, leaving them less attentive on Shadow sneaking up to shank em.
3. We are actually doing something instead of LITERALLY just handing the work off to someone else.
I'm still not voting for it, because I believe we should do it ourselve, maybe split up and have one group be the chaos maker while another sneak behind and stab her.
Like having Giano and Parvati cause a ruckus and try to draw attention while Ciel run behind and murder the prophet when they run away or aren't paying attention.
Sure Giano could put it on our resume for us, but it'd be WAY less effective than Ciel using the favor DURING the exam, and wowing the ACTUAL judges.
It's why I made my vote like this.
[] Rush in once it starts, hit them fast and hard before they can react
-[] Call your favor with Shadow the Shi assassin to take care of the prophet during the chaos
If you are going to use the favor, then use her in a way that doesn't leave her doing everything on her own. Sure, we could inform her that theres illusions and shit and leave her to assassinate on her own.
But doing it like this work extra well.
1. It creates chaos, and probably make the prophet put in extra effort to keep the illusion up.
2. It will force the Prophet to choose between running away, or staying, leaving them less attentive on Shadow sneaking up to shank em.
3. We are actually doing something instead of LITERALLY just handing the work off to someone else.
I'm still not voting for it, because I believe we should do it ourselve, maybe split up and have one group be the chaos maker while another sneak behind and stab her.
Like having Giano and Parvati cause a ruckus and try to draw attention while Ciel run behind and murder the prophet when they run away or aren't paying attention.
Trying to break the crowd's faith in the prophet and get them to fight her seems like it could be effective, but feels like somewhat of a gamble. It's still possible they'll continue to follow if they feel enough faith in the prophecies. Even if it succeeds, they might end up feeling too defeated/shocked to take much action before she runs away, or they might just be too weak to put up a fight. Still, it probably wouldn't hurt to do in combination with something else; taking away the support of her crowd should help even if they don't fight.
In terms of trying to pierce the illusion, perhaps using a camera to snap some pictures/take a video would be able to show their true appearance. It'd fail if it's more of a passive effect caused purely by sight/perception, in which case it'd be effective even in recordings, but if it's more of an active mind-manipulation effect or something which only happens in a certain area of effect, then it should work.
In terms of trying to pierce the illusion, perhaps using a camera to snap some pictures/take a video would be able to show their true appearance. It'd fail if it's more of a passive effect caused purely by sight/perception, in which case it'd be effective even in recordings, but if it's more of an active mind-manipulation effect or something which only happens in a certain area of effect, then it should work.
- Location
- Earth
Something of note here, the crowd seems aware that the prophet is not the respective loved ones. They appear just close enough to evoke that feeling of painful nostalgia and longing, not like an exact copy of a person. You are correct that seeing them do something blatantly unlike what the loved one in question was capable of may jar the audience, but they are generally not under the illusion the prophet is that same person.
Huh, so possible but a lot harder than I originally thought.
[X] Rush in once it starts, hit them fast and hard before they can react
-[X] Call your favor with Shadow the Shi assassin to take care of the prophet during the chaos
I'm going to vote for this plan while I try to think of a different plan.
I am still of the mind that calling the favor now is not a good idea, we still have the exam to pass, and I very much wants to keep it for that.
And even without that, we just spent our entire scouting action to find out that sending anyone alone is not a good idea, doing it with a favor is not going to change that part, Giano is the only member of our party that has a protection against mind manipulation.
I want to remind people that this:
Also implies that the Prophet may very well be able to detect an assassin coming, you do not send a specialist in infiltration in a mission that is best suited for shock and awe, just as you concluded that they were a potential mind reader.
We know the Prophet is relatively overwhelmed by a direct fight, no need for a complex infiltration plot that is counterproductive.
Giano said it herself:
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid
And even without that, we just spent our entire scouting action to find out that sending anyone alone is not a good idea, doing it with a favor is not going to change that part, Giano is the only member of our party that has a protection against mind manipulation.
I want to remind people that this:
Also implies that the Prophet may very well be able to detect an assassin coming, you do not send a specialist in infiltration in a mission that is best suited for shock and awe, just as you concluded that they were a potential mind reader.
We know the Prophet is relatively overwhelmed by a direct fight, no need for a complex infiltration plot that is counterproductive.
Giano said it herself:
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid
- Location
- US of A
[X] Rush in once it starts, hit them fast and hard before they can react
-[X] Dont call your favor with Shadow the Shi assassin to take care of the prophet during the chaos
Y'know what, convinced to hold that favor until the exam. We'll probably be needing that soon.
-[X] Dont call your favor with Shadow the Shi assassin to take care of the prophet during the chaos
Y'know what, convinced to hold that favor until the exam. We'll probably be needing that soon.
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
[X] Rush in once it starts, hit them fast and hard before they can react
-[X] Dont call your favor with Shadow the Shi assassin to take care of the prophet during the chaos
-[X] Dont call your favor with Shadow the Shi assassin to take care of the prophet during the chaos
The issue is not just the prophet here, it's the huge group that is there to listen to her sermon. If we are pushing for a direct fight, then they will pretty much get involved too. There may only be 3 guards at Grade 6 level, but the crowd is full of combatants that will be watching Ciel, Parvati and Giano kill their only connection to their dead loved one. And I don't think they will stay still while that is happening.
Rushing in is just asking to be mobbed and killed, it's extremely prone to failing since the prophet will just dodge the few attacks we can throw at them before we get obstructed by the mob, and then promptly run away. Even in the extreme best case event where we kill the prophet in one shot and escape through the roof, there is a pretty good chance we will be the target for revenge for hundreds of people, a good number of which are syndicates that won't hold back.
I understand the desire to keep Shadow as the pocket ace for the exam, but we are already pushing it by trying to tackle an Urban Plague with just 3 people. Holding back will just result in consequences. But if we deal with this successfully, we would have a resume of completing an Urban Plague as a Grade 6. Even if the Hana thing falls through somehow, we would have an amazing track record to join pretty much anything else.
Lovnag
Clumsy little penguin
- Location
- Antarctica
[X] Rush in once it starts, hit them fast and hard before they can react
-[X] Dont call your favor with Shadow the Shi assassin to take care of the prophet during the chaos
Seems best for now.
I kinda wonder how the ceremons work though. Like, does the Prophet appear similar to a bunch of different people all at once?
Also, even is the guns are hella expensive for the moment, surely something like an arbalest is in the realm of possibility.
Hell, maybe it's even possible to get like a small ballista for the purposes of sniping.
-[X] Dont call your favor with Shadow the Shi assassin to take care of the prophet during the chaos
Seems best for now.
I kinda wonder how the ceremons work though. Like, does the Prophet appear similar to a bunch of different people all at once?
Also, even is the guns are hella expensive for the moment, surely something like an arbalest is in the realm of possibility.
Hell, maybe it's even possible to get like a small ballista for the purposes of sniping.
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
People, you don't need to include the suboption, if you are just going to vote for the rush in vote.
That's redundant.
That's redundant.
This isn't what happened when a lone woman fought the Prophet, why would it happens now?
Plus, we are high enough in augmentations that canon fodder is barely a speed bump to us, and getting mobbed is not the most likely result.
The most likely result is, as the update said, that everyone will take time to react, except that contrary to the weak woman that tried, it will be more than enough time for us to kill the Prophet. Because we, one, are not doing it alone, two, are way more augmented, three, know about the dodging, four, have training that makes *reading our next move* a dodgy thing to rely on.
Reminder that Giano acknowledges that the guard and the crowd exists... before immediately dismissing them as non threat, despite knowing just as well as us who is in it.
We just saw that while loyal to an extent, the congregations members are not willing to risk their jobs and life for the Prophet, that considerably reduces the risk of them even trying to fight against us in time.
Edit:
I want to reiterate one very important thing here: The fact that we are three makes the dodging from the Prophet exponentially harder, a group attacking at the same time is a nightmare to dodge, and there is a reason why movies and video games tends to have the side with more people attack *one at a time*.
Attack the prophet from three sides at the same time, and I can guarantee you that they won't be able to *dodge a few attacks*, even worse when one of those that do has a way to protect her mind, and another don't tends to consciously think their next move.
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questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
There's one thing that might ruin this plan.
I.e
The Prophet learned from the last time, and either got more augments or have their bodyguards pay more attention.
Another thing to note is, while the woman attacking the Prophet is weaker than us, she is also less noticeable than us, or Giano who has to always wear her uniform.
While it's unlikely for the Prophet to really give us problems, their survivability might be higher than expected.
Given that they know enough Fixers to know that there's an Urban Plague bounty on their head. They might be more on guard than normal.
That also applies to the shi assassin plan, so that's neutral on what plan to vote for, and doesn't change that our chances are still better with KISS.
Edit:
And for conspicuousness, we can move quickly enough to go from outside the crowd to the prophet in one jump, I think.
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questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
Only if said plan is on it's own without adding a rushdown distraction on top of it.
Which is again, the best kind of plan. Like seriously. Stop voting for a single action only plan when you can stack the deck and murk the enemy way quicker.
Here's my new plan after 10 minutes of thinking. Given that the current plan is 'Unga Bunga the Prophet will be beaten because we got the bigger stick', which while a much more preferable win over the favor with Shadow vote, isn't that good yet.
[X] Plan: Two Fronts.
-[X] Have Parvati sneak in ahead of time to lay an ambush. Scout the place out for us if possible.
--[X] Once it starts, Ciel and Giano will hit them hard and fast before they can react.
---[X] If the opportunity presents itself, Parvati will spring the ambush and kill the Prophet.
Explaining my logic.
First, the Yesod tactic isn't bad at all upon further thought. In fact, I'd say that it has a high chance of working due to the simple fact that Giano is probably capable enough to murder 50% of the entire place on her own (she's a HANA GRADE 5). But while Ciel can probably keep up, Parvati isn't as strong.
Which is why I'll have Parvati sneaks in ahead of time first. We know what to expect of the Prophet's illusions/mind-reading capabilities now. She should be able to handle herself. It will keep her safer than having to try and keep up with both Ciel and Giano as they rush the Prophet since Ciel and Giano likely have superior augments to Parvati.
Second thing. This is for contingencies. For one thing, sure Giano could hard-core murder her way through the mission alongside Ciel, but having Parvati there as a second option to surprise shank them would help deal with this problem through the simple fact that they wouldn't be paying attention to her while the Grade 5 Hana Fixer barrel towards them alongside her sidekick, and would leave themselves more open to being stabbed by one of the 'audience' members.
The rushing attack is already good enough with Ciel and Giano on it, adding Parvati to the group would be overkill. So this is a roundabout way of having her already be in a position to attack without needing to put the spotlight on her at the same time.
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