The problem with doorknocker is that the MECs are coming. We need to tech up now.
Build A Better Salvager: an XCOM:LW Development Quest
- Thread starter 7734
- Start date
-
- Tags
- xcom xcom long war open voting
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We need something in the field, and Pattern 0s aren't cutting it - Strike 5 is already starting to be unhappy, and without something to fill the gap we're going to see our budgets cut.
Legion0047
Retired Shadowrunner.
- Location
- Austria
- Pronouns
- God Emperor
[X] Plan Surety
That's one Strike Team's opinion (and they were doing Abduction Missions against bipedal aliens aka Thin Men which is all sorts of bad due to the Computer Programming Flaw...), and we had issue on the second turn for some time though haven't addressed it yet until now due to all other things (namely, the issue of action economy on Production). That, and we cannot afford any justifications to 'upgrade' (read: get something else) to something else as we are stuck with the SHIVs for some time which is the starting premise in the first place of helping the 'greenies' until they're blooded and experienced enough that they don't need the training wheels (aka extra help from SHIVs). Doing the Project to solve the said Flaw now, and presumably our new Module if done next turn will have a similar one, and we should be given an actual budget (that's a big if mind you), not scrounged up via a Political Action which is shared with said Projecting. That's why we need to prove the SHIVs are viable (and the incoming MECs too which means needing more Engineers for more Production and Research respectively as we want a Production Action to always be Ceded for Political Capital for the Politcal Action category which brings in the needed resources namely the Budget and Engineers and later the Alien Alloys, Elerium and MELD once those are found use via the SCience DEpartment) to be given some leeway of a budget or engineer or more materials (Alien Alloy, Meld, Elerium) to experiment around with.
I rather we don't spread ourselves -too- thin as I stated some time ago that making a new model means needing said Budget for the Productions (still think we build from the SHIV 00 upwards so that we can Refurbish the SHIV 00 to the new one without needing too much Budget to do so in making a new one). The incoming light autocannons the turn after they're completed, and generally any new weapons thereafter, will have the same fate after all. The SHIVs are meant to be a boon until mid to late game (we're not even any close to 'mid-game' either) as they are replaced with something better or are phased out once the ball's been rolling.
I think it's best we react accordingly by improving and fixing stuff on the current SHIVs (and build infantry stuff too once we get another Research Action down the line) this early in the Quest until we're afforded more actions and economy/budget. Which will take awhile if we do Cede -> Engineer/Budget and designating them (the Engineers) appropriately thereafter until we get a certain rhythm going.
I'm not sure when we should dabble on SHIV Autonomy though which seems like another problem in particular with AI-ing. Something I hope comes up if we fix the Computer Flaw. And that's assuming we hit the TN needed for the Project otherwise we've wasted a turn doing it anyway. .-.
Decim
On again, off again lurker.
- Location
- St. Louis, MO
I'm not actually sold on doing the RFI for a new project this turn. I really want more engies to get more actions. The sooner we get an extra political action, the sooner we can really ramp up everything else. We have 5 turns more or less to get our shit in order or be left behind entirely. I don't think we have the actions to do that with what we have. Otherwise, I mostly agree with what else others are doing.
[X] Plan Engineers solve problems
-[X] Expand Your Department
--[X] More Manpower
-[X] Develop New Weapon
--[X] Light Autocannon
-[X] Develop New Module
--[X] High-Caliber Coax
-[X] Refurbish a batch of SHIV units
--[X] 4 (Cost: $8)
-[X] Cede Production Time
[X] Plan Engineers solve problems
-[X] Expand Your Department
--[X] More Manpower
-[X] Develop New Weapon
--[X] Light Autocannon
-[X] Develop New Module
--[X] High-Caliber Coax
-[X] Refurbish a batch of SHIV units
--[X] 4 (Cost: $8)
-[X] Cede Production Time
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
At the end of the day, I'm just not sold on the idea of more guns.
Slug throwers are going to be obsolete as soon as energy weapons (and anything tougher than Thin Men) start showing up, and building an unarmored SHIV means we don't have to spend a lot of actions redesigning Pattern 0 from the ground up; better to spend our actions now getting something out the door and focus on developing lasers or plasma as soon as it unlocks.
On top of that, in terms of action economy, a dozer blade is easily doable with a single development action, and not diving hard into MECs means we don't have to spend political capital on fighting for Meld.
Slug throwers are going to be obsolete as soon as energy weapons (and anything tougher than Thin Men) start showing up, and building an unarmored SHIV means we don't have to spend a lot of actions redesigning Pattern 0 from the ground up; better to spend our actions now getting something out the door and focus on developing lasers or plasma as soon as it unlocks.
On top of that, in terms of action economy, a dozer blade is easily doable with a single development action, and not diving hard into MECs means we don't have to spend political capital on fighting for Meld.
The thing is that the dozer SHIV seems like a side grade. It might have a lot of utility, but we'll still need to fix the armor, ammo, and targeting problems. And we'll need to do it soon as it keeps being a problem and people are asking about it. None of the strike teams or central are asking for a SHIV that can clear obstacles. At best it would solve the armor problem. So I don't see much point in tossing effort at the dozer project when we could instead be upgrading the main line SHIV.
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
Every new SHIV pattern is a tech up. It's not an Alloy SHIV, but frankly speaking I'm changing Alloy SHIV to the point where its no longer a brain-dead linear upgrade from Standard SHIV. It's got some pros and cons these days.
Strike 5 is unhappy right now because they just got the everloving shit kicked out of them; considering they rolled 9 fatalities for the month, it's understandable. AAR information is true, but it's not empirically true: everything that Strike Leads give you is colored by personal biases and mission history. Now admittedly, I don't roll each mission for each strike element, but I do keep a track of "what mission types request what upgrades" so that's info the questers can derrive from updates. I'll give you a hint: UFO missions will always request a loadout heavier on engineering assets than Abduction missions.
Whole lot to unpack here... okay. A list
1: There is no fixed budget. You're always going to be fighting it out with other departments, that's just life. If you go bankrupt, Shen might be willing to float you an interdepartmental loan to finish research, but that's it.
2: MELD, Alloys, and Elerium are already discovered and being used to a limited extent. You have to explicitly request them to use them, though.
3: Political actions do not scale off Engineers.
See above, engineers =/= Politics actions.
Don't think of it as a side-grade, think of it as progress sauntering vaguely upwards.
[X] Plan Surety 1.0
-[X] Establish a New Project (Roll 1d10, TN: 4. On success, GM presents an answer to the presented RFI, with attached quote for the project. Vague projects may )
--[X] Project Surety.
--[X] Project Surety's goal is to update the SHIV from the prototype Version 00 to the LRIP Version 01 Project goals include:
--- Correct the software issues with the target acquisition and fire control suites WRT bipedal X-rays. If time allows, improve C3 interface.
--- Solve the ammunition feed issues.
--- Enhance protection via applique armor and liquid ablative packs.
--- Work to better integrate existing and in-development modules with the base chassis
--- General bugfixes and QoL improvements
--[X] SHIVs.
-[X] Develop New Weapon: Your vics need more/better firepower. (Costs 10 Budget, roll 1d10/turn until TN hit.)
--[X] Light Autocannon: Miniguns solve your accuracy problems by using more bullet. Autocannons solve that problem by adding explosive fill to the mix, which can ignore a lot of cover. (TN 9)
-[X] Develop New Module: As much as you wish the SHIV was capable of taking all its cues from software-side systems, a number of physical modifications need to be integrated into the chassis to get expanded capabilities. Time to develop some. (Costs 10 Budget, roll 1d10/turn until TN hit.)
--[X] Ancillary Machine Gun: While the SHIV wasn't originally designed to use multiple separate weapons systems, a lot of options you're coming up with are either limited-ammunition or limited-range systems. Figuring out how to mount up an ancillary coaxial gun fixes that problem so it's not useless outside of melee range or some pathetically small number of shots.
---[X] High-Caliber Coax: A standard 12.7mm coaxial machine gun might be a bit on the large side, but the added cover-punching is going to be useful- and those aliens are very good at hiding behind cover. (TN: 3)
-[X] Refurbish a batch of SHIV units
--[X] 4.
-[X] Cede Production time (Gains Political Capital)
@DiscordOxymoron, this OK with you?
-[X] Establish a New Project (Roll 1d10, TN: 4. On success, GM presents an answer to the presented RFI, with attached quote for the project. Vague projects may )
--[X] Project Surety.
--[X] Project Surety's goal is to update the SHIV from the prototype Version 00 to the LRIP Version 01 Project goals include:
--- Correct the software issues with the target acquisition and fire control suites WRT bipedal X-rays. If time allows, improve C3 interface.
--- Solve the ammunition feed issues.
--- Enhance protection via applique armor and liquid ablative packs.
--- Work to better integrate existing and in-development modules with the base chassis
--- General bugfixes and QoL improvements
--[X] SHIVs.
-[X] Develop New Weapon: Your vics need more/better firepower. (Costs 10 Budget, roll 1d10/turn until TN hit.)
--[X] Light Autocannon: Miniguns solve your accuracy problems by using more bullet. Autocannons solve that problem by adding explosive fill to the mix, which can ignore a lot of cover. (TN 9)
-[X] Develop New Module: As much as you wish the SHIV was capable of taking all its cues from software-side systems, a number of physical modifications need to be integrated into the chassis to get expanded capabilities. Time to develop some. (Costs 10 Budget, roll 1d10/turn until TN hit.)
--[X] Ancillary Machine Gun: While the SHIV wasn't originally designed to use multiple separate weapons systems, a lot of options you're coming up with are either limited-ammunition or limited-range systems. Figuring out how to mount up an ancillary coaxial gun fixes that problem so it's not useless outside of melee range or some pathetically small number of shots.
---[X] High-Caliber Coax: A standard 12.7mm coaxial machine gun might be a bit on the large side, but the added cover-punching is going to be useful- and those aliens are very good at hiding behind cover. (TN: 3)
-[X] Refurbish a batch of SHIV units
--[X] 4.
-[X] Cede Production time (Gains Political Capital)
@DiscordOxymoron, this OK with you?
After further thought and discussion with the QM I think we should not be ceding our production. We should be building more SHIVs. There will be an option to upgrade them later so it won't be wasted. And Central wants lots of SHIVs.
[X] Plan Surety 1.0 and SHIVs
-[X] Establish a New Project (Roll 1d10, TN: 4. On success, GM presents an answer to the presented RFI, with attached quote for the project. Vague projects may )
--[X] Project Surety.
--[X] Project Surety's goal is to update the SHIV from the prototype Version 00 to the LRIP Version 01 Project goals include:
--- Correct the software issues with the target acquisition and fire control suites WRT bipedal X-rays. If time allows, improve C3 interface.
--- Solve the ammunition feed issues.
--- Enhance protection via applique armor and liquid ablative packs.
--- Work to better integrate existing and in-development modules with the base chassis
--- General bugfixes and QoL improvements
--[X] SHIVs.
-[X] Develop New Weapon: Your vics need more/better firepower. (Costs 10 Budget, roll 1d10/turn until TN hit.)
--[X] Light Autocannon: Miniguns solve your accuracy problems by using more bullet. Autocannons solve that problem by adding explosive fill to the mix, which can ignore a lot of cover. (TN 9)
-[X] Develop New Module: As much as you wish the SHIV was capable of taking all its cues from software-side systems, a number of physical modifications need to be integrated into the chassis to get expanded capabilities. Time to develop some. (Costs 10 Budget, roll 1d10/turn until TN hit.)
--[X] Ancillary Machine Gun: While the SHIV wasn't originally designed to use multiple separate weapons systems, a lot of options you're coming up with are either limited-ammunition or limited-range systems. Figuring out how to mount up an ancillary coaxial gun fixes that problem so it's not useless outside of melee range or some pathetically small number of shots.
---[X] High-Caliber Coax: A standard 12.7mm coaxial machine gun might be a bit on the large side, but the added cover-punching is going to be useful- and those aliens are very good at hiding behind cover. (TN: 3)
-[X] Refurbish a batch of SHIV units
--[X] 4.
-[X] Produce a batch of SHIV Pattern 00 units.
--[X] 3
Also I am aware that this doesn't produce new weapons for them. But we lose a good number of SHIVs every turn. This way the old weapons can be put back into service while we refurbish the dead ones.
[X] Plan Surety 1.0 and SHIVs
-[X] Establish a New Project (Roll 1d10, TN: 4. On success, GM presents an answer to the presented RFI, with attached quote for the project. Vague projects may )
--[X] Project Surety.
--[X] Project Surety's goal is to update the SHIV from the prototype Version 00 to the LRIP Version 01 Project goals include:
--- Correct the software issues with the target acquisition and fire control suites WRT bipedal X-rays. If time allows, improve C3 interface.
--- Solve the ammunition feed issues.
--- Enhance protection via applique armor and liquid ablative packs.
--- Work to better integrate existing and in-development modules with the base chassis
--- General bugfixes and QoL improvements
--[X] SHIVs.
-[X] Develop New Weapon: Your vics need more/better firepower. (Costs 10 Budget, roll 1d10/turn until TN hit.)
--[X] Light Autocannon: Miniguns solve your accuracy problems by using more bullet. Autocannons solve that problem by adding explosive fill to the mix, which can ignore a lot of cover. (TN 9)
-[X] Develop New Module: As much as you wish the SHIV was capable of taking all its cues from software-side systems, a number of physical modifications need to be integrated into the chassis to get expanded capabilities. Time to develop some. (Costs 10 Budget, roll 1d10/turn until TN hit.)
--[X] Ancillary Machine Gun: While the SHIV wasn't originally designed to use multiple separate weapons systems, a lot of options you're coming up with are either limited-ammunition or limited-range systems. Figuring out how to mount up an ancillary coaxial gun fixes that problem so it's not useless outside of melee range or some pathetically small number of shots.
---[X] High-Caliber Coax: A standard 12.7mm coaxial machine gun might be a bit on the large side, but the added cover-punching is going to be useful- and those aliens are very good at hiding behind cover. (TN: 3)
-[X] Refurbish a batch of SHIV units
--[X] 4.
-[X] Produce a batch of SHIV Pattern 00 units.
--[X] 3
Also I am aware that this doesn't produce new weapons for them. But we lose a good number of SHIVs every turn. This way the old weapons can be put back into service while we refurbish the dead ones.
- Location
- United States
[X] Plan Surety 1.0 and SHIVs
- Location
- California
[X] Plan Surety 1.0 and SHIVs
- Location
- New England
[X] Plan Surety 1.0 and SHIVs
- Location
- Minnesota
[X] Plan Surety 1.0 and SHIVs
The weapons doesn't worry me if that were the case. Still think we should start piling up Political Capital every turn going forward unless a dire situation or request pops up. We didn't really have any word on needing increased SHIVs after all and it's best to save the Budget when actually making the light AC later. I suppose this Plan is fine though but we'll need to get more Engineers to put another point in our action economy soon.
There is certainly an argument to be made for political capital, but we are not operating in a vacuum. If we are getting a valuable resource back it is because we are putting something important in. That to me tells me that the QM expects producing things, and specifically SHIVs, to be very important. And from an IC perspective Central is expecting us to make SHIVs. If we keep making other things then it tells Central that it might as well reassign those engineers to other projects in the first place.
Basically it was this part of the last update that got my attention.
After that I went through and checked to see if Central had actually told us what they want and saw these bits.
So to me it seems like Central wants all the strike teams to have SHIVs and regards this as our top priority. Decemeber is six months away true, but we might as well get SHIVs produced now and working in the field. It will help prove the utility of SHIVs, help save recruit lives, and makes Central happy. Then we can upgrade them to new variants as we research them.
I asked on the Discord how many SHIVs strike teams need. And it seems like we need a minimum of three SHIVs per strike team, and probably more to take into account spares and new strike teams.
Last edited:
Hmmm... Noted. At least until we get 15 SHIVs I suppose, and that's assuming the bare minimum, if not 30 if we give 'spares'.
I'm not looking forward to the MECs coming into the equation though as we'll need to hope that Central gives us an actual Budget rather than waiting up another Turn to do so.
Said SHIVs the turn after this needs their corresponding weapons, or we hold unto and wait for light ACs to finish up and spread it accordingly. (15 of each weapon type for variety?)
Not much to say I suppose. I guess we wait and see how things turns out.
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
re; this: all SHIVs destroyed automatically get rebuilt to the highest block available.
