The Dual Order: Endless Days of Madness: An Alternate History Crossover Cold War Quest

On the topic of Sweden, since I am in favour of good relations with the Socintern, I would say that we try and follow the Socintern's lead in any interventions in Sweden, rather than taking any action on our own; they're the ones with contacts and experience dealing with that area. That can also start a precedent of one of the leftist blocs calling in another for help while still taking the lead in any of their "projects", which could hopefully prevent future conflicts wherein we bumble into screwing up one another's goals.

Spartakrod said:

Working with Germany is a borderline nonstarter.

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by how much? are they willing to make an understanding with us? As in yes we are each other opposites but we both hate the nazis more type of coop?

koushikb8768 said:

by how much? are they willing to make an understanding with us? As in yes we are each other opposites but we both hate the nazis more type of coop?

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For Voynist Russia working with Nazi Germany just isn't doable thanks to the issue of dismembering each other's fatherlands in their home timelines and in Nazi Germany's case; anti-slavic racism being ingrained into the entire system as they switch from extractive to settler colonialism.

For the Communist Bloc working with Nazi Germany would get you lynched by not only cold warriors but veterans of the world wars and Operation Zorya.

Spartakrod said:

For the Communist Bloc working with Nazi Germany

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Um no working with Voynich Russia against the Nazis.

koushikb8768 said:

Um no working with Voynich Russia against the Nazis.

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It is doable, I suppose, but it would require compromise with the National Populists. You have to give the Vozhd something in return. Such as technology, or concessions in spheres of influence, or trade agreements.

Are you prepared to give them that?

Spartakrod said:

or trade agreements

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I could agree with Trade and Tech. Though Not a chance on spheres of influence.
Besides the Nazis are worse that Voynich Russia. We gotta take down the Nazis first. They still have some structural vulnerabilities that we can exploit and well... they're Nazis. Enough Said

koushikb8768 said:

I could agree with Trade and Tech. Though Not a chance on spheres of influence.
Besides the Nazis are worse that Voynich Russia. We gotta take down the Nazis first. They still have some structural vulnerabilities that we can exploit and well... they're Nazis. Enough Said

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No No No, working with liberals that pretend to be nice while stabbing us in the back is one thing but working with actual fascists (or natpops) is a bridge too far especially when we have no urgent or desperate reason to, this is the kind of thinking that leads to blunders the Moltov-Ribbentrop pact

StarMaker764 said:

No No No

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I have a hate for the Nazis and a Special hate for Imperial Japan. Voynich Russia dosn't seem as bad as either of them. I wanted the UN to stand once more but the Thread put payed to that. In MY list of priotires, it's beating Nazi Germanys and then Imperial Japans. Everything else is secondary.

I'm gonna throw together a rough plan to get the ball rolling. People are free to make their own or throw ideas out to add to it. I expect some disagreements in a few areas but otherwise it seems like people are mostly on the same page, I think.

Comintern Agenda Post 75 World Merges

[ ] Plan United Front with Caveats Draft 0.1
-[ ] RM Sweden: Defer to the Socintern as a courtesy, indicate support for Sweden and willingness to send arms and volunteers to fight Voynists.
-[ ] Pan-African Association of Socialist Republics: grant them a permanent seat on Stavka.
-[ ] South American War: Wang Hongwen and Simon Levy are both correct. Local leftist movements must be helped grow so that they may have the strength to employ revolutionary defeatism. We are not sending volunteers to fight there, merely material aid and activists to help local leftists organize.
-[ ] Olympics: boycott the 1976 Winter Games in German occupied Norway. Socintern may send athletes to the Spartakiad. Experiment with joint games without fully committing. Boycott the Titanic games if they're created.
-[ ] Internal Comintern Agenda: Dial down military adventurism. Focus on consolidating gains, developing economies further, and promoting Comintern supremacy in its transition to a true world government. Maintain a strong focus on scientific research, cybernetic economies, increased ecological care, and cultural revolution.

-[ ] Socintern Relations: Form a united front to show outward unity against other blocs. Offer Comintern membership to each nation.
-[ ] Diplomatic Agenda: Recognize countries that the Socintern does and doesn't recognize, and request they do the same courtesy for us, so they don't recognize Nazi Germany.

-[ ] Brazilian Nightmare: Launch an intervention into the country. Seize coastal cities, provide food and medical aid, and liaison with local resistance movements.Invite Socintern to send volunteers and aid too, with a deferral to Voscom's command.

Overall agenda is 199 words, Brazilian part is 36 words, and Socintern part is 45 words. It's a start, and we've got more words to budget around. There's probably other stuff outside of the latest update that probably requires our attention.

The question is as we move towards a unified Comintern government do we allow individual members to each have a seat in the Socintern or do we nominate a handful of representatives to represent the Comintern as a whole?

The obvious advantage of the former is all members vote lock-step, so we can drag Socintern any direction we want, but it risks alienating and scaring other members as we absorb Marxists members. It also maintains Comintern member sovereignty even as we move towards a world government. It could however freak out the non-Marxist members and risk them leaving if we overrule them enough. It's a collection of blocs bound together rather than a single large bloc like us. The Solar League is already mercurial, and they've got massive members in their bloc.

The other option gives us less reps in the Socintern, but makes all reps come from the highest level of the Comintern rather than members, maintains the balance of factions mostly in the existing formula, helps reinforce our moves towards unification, and helps keeps us more separate from the Socintern. We do want close relations but we don't want them to absorb us into them by causing members to break off to join other blocs. It'd also possibly make it smoother to manage, possibly, since we can decide Socintern policy at the highest level where the people come from. We'd do that even with full members though of course, but it would cut down on the number of meetings.

Though it does run into an issue like the Socintern possibly saying the Comintern may count as 1 member if we decide not to send reps from each member, which would greatly diminish our voice in it. They don't want members being able to arbitrarily decide how many seats and thus votes they get in their forum. It's 1 vote per member, as far as I'm aware. We could reasonably argue that we're 3 members if we go the Comintern rep route: Voscom, Weimar Pact, and Metropolis Accords.

I know a few people wanted to keep the Syndies at arms reach, which I can understand. Regardless of which route we go with, the Comintern must continue moving towards becoming a world government. We're still a highly integrated EU, which is an excellent start.
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There's some additional details Spartakrod posted about Sweden on the Wordsmiths discord that I'll try to summarize on here:
Sweden's government is generally very pro-socialist in spite of it still being a monarchy, with its government having been lead by the Social Democratic Worker Party in a consistent coalition with other left-wing parties that had committed to a policy of finlandization with regards to INFOR.

koushikb8768 said:

I have a hate for the Nazis and a Special hate for Imperial Japan. Voynich Russia dosn't seem as bad as either of them. I wanted the UN to stand once more but the Thread put payed to that. In MY list of priotires, it's beating Nazi Germanys and then Imperial Japans. Everything else is secondary.

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The issue is that we're playing the long game and the Nazis have, funnily enough, been the weakest bloc throughout, especially now. With the exception of the Colombian War and (arguably) Pakistani Independence War, they've taken L after L in proxy conflicts all over the globe and drew the short stick with their (fair-weather) allies from the latest worldmerge. If there's a bloc that's going to collapse anytime soon, it's going to be them. This compared to more existential threats like the ABC and especially MOSACC which, while somewhat less ideologically vile than the Nazis, are still fascists and corporatists at the end of the day. This ignoring the two broad liberal blocs (of which the IPTO would be our allies of convenience if the need arises, given how they're the weaker of the two).

It's hard to stomach letting the Reich potentially survive into the 21st Century but it's the hand we've been dealt with if we want Labor to eventually triumph over Capital so that no such evil will ever manifest again.

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2
-[X] RM Sweden: Defer to the Socintern as a courtesy, indicate support for Sweden and willingness to send arms and volunteers to fight Voynists.
-[X] Pan-African Association of Socialist Republics: grant them a permanent seat on Stavka.
-[X] South American War: Wang Hongwen and Simon Levy are both correct. Local leftist movements must be helped grow so that they may have the strength to employ revolutionary defeatism. We are not sending volunteers to fight there, merely material aid and activists to help local leftists organize.
-[X] Olympics: boycott the 1976 Winter Games in German occupied Norway. Socintern may send athletes to the Spartakiad. Experiment with joint games without fully committing. Boycott the Titanic games if they're created.
-[X] Internal Comintern Agenda: Dial down military adventurism. Focus on consolidating gains, developing economies further, and promoting Comintern supremacy in its transition to a true world government. Maintain a strong focus on scientific research, cybernetic economies, increased ecological care, and cultural revolution.
-[X] UN: Continue vetoing any motion that'd allow Nazi Germany in the UN. Refuse entry to Voynist Russia and its sphere too.
-[X] Socintern Relations: Form a united front to show outward unity against other blocs. Join the Socintern as the Comintern, rather than as Comintern member states. Request 3 seat to represent the 3 alliances that make up the Comintern: Voscom, Weimar Pact, and Metropolis Accords. It's a diplomatic courtesy to avoid destabilizing the balance within the Socintern.
-[X] Diplomatic Agenda: Recognize countries that the Socintern does and doesn't recognize, and request they do the same courtesy for us. So that they don't recognize Nazi Germany. Offer Comintern membership to Socintern nations.
-[X] Brazilian Nightmare: Launch an intervention into the country. Seize coastal cities, provide food and medical aid, and liaison with local resistance movements. The priority is establishing a foothold before pushing inland to put down reactionary and fascist warlords. Liberal warlords/states may join under a popular front as junior partners to leftists. Invite Socintern to send volunteers and aid too, with a deferral to Voscom's command.

Okay here's a more fleshed out version of the plan. We join as the Comintern itself to maintain supremacy of it over members, prevent splintering of the Comintern by members, prevent a power imbalance in the Socintern that could cause it to splinter, and keep us at arms reach from the Socintern institutionally. I think it hits a good middle ground and the symbolism of the move is really strong. I know it's the holidays, so I expect a lot of people to be busy in the next couple days. I'm pretty satisfied with this. The sections are in the word count limits too.

The UN plank is to keep up tradition. Continue to reject Germany and now Russia from entry into any clubhouse we've got veto power in.

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2

Fission Battery said:

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2
-[X] RM Sweden: Defer to the Socintern as a courtesy, indicate support for Sweden and willingness to send arms and volunteers to fight Voynists.
-[X] Pan-African Association of Socialist Republics: grant them a permanent seat on Stavka.
-[X] South American War: Wang Hongwen and Simon Levy are both correct. Local leftist movements must be helped grow so that they may have the strength to employ revolutionary defeatism. We are not sending volunteers to fight there, merely material aid and activists to help local leftists organize.
-[X] Olympics: boycott the 1976 Winter Games in German occupied Norway. Socintern may send athletes to the Spartakiad. Experiment with joint games without fully committing. Boycott the Titanic games if they're created.
-[X] Internal Comintern Agenda: Dial down military adventurism. Focus on consolidating gains, developing economies further, and promoting Comintern supremacy in its transition to a true world government. Maintain a strong focus on scientific research, cybernetic economies, increased ecological care, and cultural revolution.
-[X] UN: Continue vetoing any motion that'd allow Nazi Germany in the UN. Refuse entry to Voynist Russia and its sphere too.
-[X] Socintern Relations: Form a united front to show outward unity against other blocs. Join the Socintern as the Comintern, rather than as Comintern member states. Request 3 seat to represent the 3 alliances that make up the Comintern: Voscom, Weimar Pact, and Metropolis Accords. It's a diplomatic courtesy to avoid destabilizing the balance within the Socintern.
-[X] Diplomatic Agenda: Recognize countries that the Socintern does and doesn't recognize, and request they do the same courtesy for us. So that they don't recognize Nazi Germany. Offer Comintern membership to Socintern nations.
-[X] Brazilian Nightmare: Launch an intervention into the country. Seize coastal cities, provide food and medical aid, and liaison with local resistance movements. The priority is establishing a foothold before pushing inland to put down reactionary and fascist warlords. Liberal warlords/states may join under a popular front as junior partners to leftists. Invite Socintern to send volunteers and aid too, with a deferral to Voscom's command.

Okay here's a more fleshed out version of the plan. We join as the Comintern itself to maintain supremacy of it over members, prevent splintering of the Comintern by members, prevent a power imbalance in the Socintern that could cause it to splinter, and keep us at arms reach from the Socintern institutionally. I think it hits a good middle ground and the symbolism of the move is really strong. I know it's the holidays, so I expect a lot of people to be busy in the next couple days. I'm pretty satisfied with this. The sections are in the word count limits too.

The UN plank is to keep up tradition. Continue to reject Germany and now Russia from entry into any clubhouse we've got veto power in.

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The only comments I have here are maybe adding a sentence on aiding the PASSR on nuclear armament, helping the SUAR reach permanent member status as well and maybe increasing independence from the liberal blocs.

Otherwise you read my mind on most issues

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2

And here I thought sports were the last thing to go.

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2

looks good to me

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2

StarMaker764 said:

The only comments I have here are maybe adding a sentence on aiding the PASSR on nuclear armament, helping the SUAR reach permanent member status as well and maybe increasing independence from the liberal blocs.

Otherwise you read my mind on most issues

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Hm, I hadn't considered that because I figured they'd be covered under our nuclear umbrella. They are members of Voscom after all. We could station weapons there if they want. SUAR should be covered under consolidation and development. We're continuing our previous policies of giving aid to local planners to decide how resources should be used.

[X] Plan United Front with Caveats 0.2