Of Winding Ways and Cunning Devices

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The issue is that Guldur actually is inherently corruptive. There's really no ethical way to use it. So after a redemption arc we probably won't be able to use it at all were as the other options should still be somewhat usable after going through a redemption arc.
 
The issue is that Guldur actually is inherently corruptive. There's really no ethical way to use it. So after a redemption arc we probably won't be able to use it at all were as the other options should still be somewhat usable after going through a redemption arc.
I mean I took it with the intention to never use it in the quest proper lol. I mean all the options are dark magic and alchemy, all corrupted and with their roots in Morgoth and Sauron.

When Eriol witnesses the Fall it'll be a stark awakening and I imagine Eriol won't be keen to use any dark.
 
I mean I took it with the intention to never use it in the quest proper lol. I mean all the options are dark magic and alchemy, all corrupted and with their roots in Morgoth and Sauron.

When Eriol witnesses the Fall it'll be a stark awakening and I imagine Eriol won't be keen to use any dark.

None of the options would be entirely locked away in play. There will be dangers to using them, there will certainly be a moral dimension to how and if you choose to use them but once you know something you cannot unknow it.
 
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None of the potions would be entirely locked away in play. There will be dangers to using them, there will certainly be a moral dimension to how and if you choose to use them but once you know something you cannot unknow it.
Potions or options? Also true, I don't expect Eriol to forget or anything. Just that the reasons for using them will be drastically different if he ever does.
 
People are talking about fall of Numenor as if it will be some big revelation against anything dark. Which as far as I can tell it isn't? Sauron baited Numenoreans to go against a divine ban and Numenoreans got smote for their trouble. Sure, it will show that Sauron greatly reduced the dangers and cared not a little bit about their success, but there's nothing here that says "dark magic is bad", other than it came from Sauron.
 
I mean I took it with the intention to never use it in the quest proper lol. I mean all the options are dark magic and alchemy, all corrupted and with their roots in Morgoth and Sauron.

When Eriol witnesses the Fall it'll be a stark awakening and I imagine Eriol won't be keen to use any dark.
The Fire option explicitly includes lore on architecture that resists explosions.

Nothing tainted about that.

Numenorian indestructible architecture is famous in Middle Earth far into the 3rd Age and never seen negativly.
 
The Fire option explicitly includes lore on architecture that resists explosions.

Nothing tainted about that.

Numenorian indestructible architecture is famous in Middle Earth far into the 3rd Age and never seen negativly.
I mean rereading it, the words used, it's clear this isn't numenorean or dwarvish, or elvish craft. You take a look at all of middle earth and you'll find the only people who use explosives are Sauron and Saruman, maybe Morgoth did but I'm not sure.. So the art isn't exactly coming from nice places. Then again none of them are lol.
 
As I said, I can see advantages in every choice. But I still prefer not to go in full black mode. So, approval voting.

[X] Spells of Steel and Blood, how to forge hate into as sword and spite into an arrow, leaving the battle half won before it is begun (Roll 1d6 Martial and 1d6 Learning)

[X] The Humors of Flesh, how to brew potions that heal the body and inflame the mind, potions to kill without a mark or in unspeakable pain, cordials to fortify one though the long journeys, incense that brings forgetfulness or nightmare (Roll 1d6 diplomacy and 1d6 intrigue)

[X] Gifts of Fire, how to unleash the wrath of flame and ruin from charcoal, sulfur and the leavings of man as well as how one might guard against it with high and cunning walls (Roll 1d6 Martial and 1d6 Stewardship)
 
People are talking about fall of Numenor as if it will be some big revelation against anything dark. Which as far as I can tell it isn't? Sauron baited Numenoreans to go against a divine ban and Numenoreans got smote for their trouble. Sure, it will show that Sauron greatly reduced the dangers and cared not a little bit about their success, but there's nothing here that says "dark magic is bad", other than it came from Sauron.

It is going to hit a lot more emotionally than that because Sauron is about to do some extreme social and religious changes to the Numanorians in service of Melkor, He Who Arises in Might and the purest form of Guldur, the song manipulates the Discord of Melkor. You cannot really be a sorcerer with even the smallest capacity for singing your will into being and not know that. The others are not as direct but all of them have strong indications about where they came from.
 
I mean rereading it, the words used, it's clear this isn't numenorean or dwarvish, or elvish craft. You take a look at all of middle earth and you'll find the only people who use explosives are Sauron and Saruman, maybe Morgoth did but I'm not sure.. So the art isn't exactly coming from nice places. Then again none of them are lol.
The explosives are definitly somewhat questionable.
But the second half, architecture to resist them, that's great.
 
People are talking about fall of Numenor as if it will be some big revelation against anything dark. Which as far as I can tell it isn't? Sauron baited Numenoreans to go against a divine ban and Numenoreans got smote for their trouble. Sure, it will show that Sauron greatly reduced the dangers and cared not a little bit about their success, but there's nothing here that says "dark magic is bad", other than it came from Sauron.
It'll hit hard because the basis of Sauron's lie is that the Valar are liars and oppressors, that Eru is fake construct, and that Melkor is the true God. Countless Numenoreans believe his words and commit terrible acts based upon them (slavery, sacrifice, defilement of Nimloth etc.).

Edit- Off topic I hope we meet some Bear friends lol. The great bear dance sounds fun.
 
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[X] Tablets of Song and Ruin, writ upon stone for no parchment could bear the weight of it, the deep wisdom to fear an echo of the world's song and by great effort of Fea change some small note of it. Power in its purest form and for men its most perilous(+1d6 to all stats; Dangerous to Use
 
It is going to hit a lot more emotionally than that because Sauron is about to do some extreme social and religious changes to the Numanorians in service of Melkor, He Who Arises in Might and the purest form of Guldur, the song manipulates the Discord of Melkor. You cannot really be a sorcerer with even the smallest capacity for singing your will into being and not know that. The others are not as direct but all of them have strong indications about where they came from.

DP, I have realized that I know jack shit about the Deeper worldbuilding side of LoTR. Would you please explain me or point me in some direction where I can find where magic comes from?
 
Heh "magic" is weird and wacky. For the most part you are given magic abilities from someone already Magical(Melkor/Valar)
Or you are a being that is intrinsically magical like the elves or Maiar.

Humans baring the Numenorean are not magical for the most part. Although there is a shape shifter but it's arguable whether to call that ability magic.
 
Magic in Arda
Magic in Arda

Broadly speaking magic is a term that Men (and Hobbits) use to explain that which is beyond their understanding. They might call a Morgul dagger and the Mirror of Galadriel both magic because they cannot do it... or at least most of them cannot, but we'll get to that. First off the most impressive and wide ranging expressions of direct power upon the world is divine, or angelic depending on how you want to see the Ainur.

In the beginning before time there was Eru from his wandering thoughts were born the Ainur, some greater which were called in later years the Valar and some lesser which were called the Maiar and each had after the manner of the part of Eru's mind of which they were born power and understanding over certain concepts.

In his own time Eru reveals to them a great music which enraptures all of them and he asks them to sing it, but one of the Valar Melkor who was wisest to the mind of Eru, though he did not know all of it and mightiest, though not as mighty as his Maker decided to make his own song. Other spirits joined him for he was mighty and fair to their eyes and a great din of Discord rose against the Music which Eru had set out and the Music and the Discord rang one against the other a long time until at the last Eru made a third theme which the Ainu who sang it could not wholly understand. In the midst of that song the Singers as if in waking dream the history of Arda and though they did not see all of it clearly they did bear witness to the Children of Iluvatar (elven name for Eru) who were the Elves and Men. Many of the Ainur were were entranced by them for good or for ill, for they had been part of the Third Theme which only Iluvatar understood

But when the song was over the Ainu, the Timeless Ones discovered that their work had not simply drawn a waking dream over them but had made Ea The Universe That Is, under the dominion of time and in this universe is Arda, the physical world of Middle Earth, within it one can find aspects of the Music and the Discord still ringing out still.

That is why a lot of the deep magic in Lord of the Rings is presented as song, because it is a continuation and a refinement of the song of creation. Of all the beings on Arda of course the Ainu of which Sauron was one just as his master Melkor are the best at this expression of power, because they were a part however small of the original singing. Sauron was there when Aule sang that iron would be magnetic and Melkor sag that it would rust and wear away, perhaps he even added some small flourish to it. Now among the Children the best at magic are the elves who are most like the Ainu in their love of the world which they will never leave. Not to say that every elf can sing a bank of mist into being or even make fire in wet kindling, but it is a common power of elven song to make the listener have waking dreams, elven glamor if you will.

But of course that same power exists within the Discord, the power to overawe and terrify as Melkor did in his challenge, the power to deceive and to hide one's heart and this Men who do not have as much time to study and meditate upon the world as the elves have an easier time grasping. This is not D&D style sponsored magic, you do not have to pray to Melkor to use it, but you do have to think like him, you have to be willing to break things on some level.

That does not mean all the works of Discord are blatantly destructive, it can be really subtle. For instance the Three Rings were made by the elves using lore than Sauron, as Annatar, taught them so Discord and what they broke was... the natural progression of ages and the passing of the elves, for a while at least. When Sam and Frodo get to Lothlothien and describe the place as from another age, they are exactly right, that age is the First Age when the elves were still at the height of her power because Galadriel bore the Ring of Adamant and she said so. This was in effect a transgression against the will of Eru... for all the good it undoubtedly did.

So what does that mean for the practice of sorcery that is begotten in the primordial will of evil incarnate? Well that will be for you guys and Eriol to consider.
 
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I can't help but think with song and ruin you might be able to go crazy places like projecting your inner spirit like you have a stand or persona.

But..... anything goes when you have what amounts to forbidden knowledge akin to the apple.
 
[X] Spells of Steel and Blood, how to forge hate into as sword and spite into an arrow, leaving the battle half won before it is begun (Roll 1d6 Martial and 1d6 Learning)

[X] The Humors of Flesh, how to brew potions that heal the body and inflame the mind, potions to kill without a mark or in unspeakable pain, cordials to fortify one though the long journeys, incense that brings forgetfulness or nightmare (Roll 1d6 diplomacy and 1d6 intrigue)

[X] Gifts of Fire, how to unleash the wrath of flame and ruin from charcoal, sulfur and the leavings of man as well as how one might guard against it with high and cunning walls (Roll 1d6 Martial and 1d6 Stewardship)
 
[X] The Humors of Flesh, how to brew potions that heal the body and inflame the mind, potions to kill without a mark or in unspeakable pain, cordials to fortify one though the long journeys, incense that brings forgetfulness or nightmare (Roll 1d6 diplomacy and 1d6 intrigue)

Is it possible that Eru will grow tired of Eriol and kick him out of his creation before he can do stuff?
(Awesome if true. Only Melkor shares a similar fate)

I didn't expect dark magic from this vote; I should have put library in my earlier plan for you nerds.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by No7sHere on Nov 12, 2022 at 5:27 AM, finished with 37 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] Tablets of Song and Ruin, writ upon stone for no parchment could bear the weight of it, the deep wisdom to fear an echo of the world's song and by great effort of Fea change some small note of it. Power in its purest form and for men its most perilous(+1d6 to all stats; Dangerous to Use)
    [X] The Humors of Flesh, how to brew potions that heal the body and inflame the mind, potions to kill without a mark or in unspeakable pain, cordials to fortify one though the long journeys, incense that brings forgetfulness or nightmare (Roll 1d6 diplomacy and 1d6 intrigue)
    [X] Gifts of Fire, how to unleash the wrath of flame and ruin from charcoal, sulfur and the leavings of man as well as how one might guard against it with high and cunning walls (Roll 1d6 Martial and 1d6 Stewardship)
    [X] Spells of Steel and Blood, how to forge hate into as sword and spite into an arrow, leaving the battle half won before it is begun (Roll 1d6 Martial and 1d6 Learning)
 
[X] The Humors of Flesh, how to brew potions that heal the body and inflame the mind, potions to kill without a mark or in unspeakable pain, cordials to fortify one though the long journeys, incense that brings forgetfulness or nightmare (Roll 1d6 diplomacy and 1d6 intrigue)

I Like more the things we can use reliably
 
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