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Fate: A Father Above the Grail
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UNKNOWN01
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Well seeing the options we have now with pros and cons, it kind of goes like this...
Archer
Pros: He is technically the safest option, he doesn't care about the grail, doing things like this is part of his job, he can help Shirou with his UBW, can counter Gil, emotional scene with a dying Kerry and emotional scenes with basically all of the cast minus Fate (This is important).
Cons: Weakest of the ones proposed, there exist the possibility of him working bad with Shirou, his battle with Gil must be a One-Shot victory or we are doomed.
Dioscuri
Pros: Really strong, may come in two, we can supply them and they would probably win the HGW.
Cons: Angry Man Jew would interfere with unknown results, Gil may take them serious enough for us to die.
Saber
Pros: If we can supply her she is the strongest Saber, Avalon goes 'lolnope' to any attack if activated and heals almost anything in stand-by, she may win against Gil.
Cons: Really and I mean 'REALLY' wants her wish, Gil may still defeat her.
These are the Pros and Cons I see for the moment.
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I really don't see this working out well. At all.
Even in UBW, Shirou only stood a chance because Gil wasn't taking him seriously in the slightest. Archer would at least be a Servant, which would mean Gil would be more serious by default.
There's also the fact that it's basically impossible to justify an attempt at this IC.
Edit:
There's also plenty of Japanese heroes we could try to summon (although that does require an unreliable system hack).
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Also, there's the insight of what shirou would become had his dad chosen to talk about heroism instead of family.
I don't know how much weight that idea holds.
I think Gil has too much ego to take Archer as seriously as he did with shirou in UBW, even if Archer is a servant.
Well, in this case they'd use Shirous blood and leave it up to compatibility.
Also- is only one of our kids a Master, or are both Shirou and Illya Masters? Cause in that case, wouldn't we vote on two Servants, or just one and get Saber for Shirou?
UNKNOWN01
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In the novel is stated that Archer can actually defend himself against Gil with Kanshou and Byakuya for a time at the very least, probably enough for him to use UBW, and while Gil would indeed take Archer little bit more serious (I see it as an"Now I'll go from using 0,0001% of my power to an actual 1%, mongrel!"), Archer is also more qualified to fight against Gil than Shirou, which was infinitely weaker and slower than Archer, and I also said that it would probably be a One-Shot battle between Gil using Ea and destroying UBW and Archer stopping him on his tracks and killing him.
In general, Archer is one of the best bets against Gil because Gil will never take a 'Faker' like Shirou seriously; even as Archer, he would still hold back enough for Archer to be able to beat him.
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Archer vs Gilgamesh at best looks like Berserkalot vs Gilgamesh.
Even if its a Faker, being a Servant instead of a Human makes a huge difference in how much effort his pride will let him use.
People really like to overestimate how strong Archer actually is, in part because he's really good at making people think he's better than he actually is (its part of how he fights dirty).
As for doing a compatible summon with Shirou, that's honestly pretty unlikely to give Archer. Would probably at best give someone super self-sacrificing like Siegfried. Very much a crapshoot though.
Even if its a Faker, being a Servant instead of a Human makes a huge difference in how much effort his pride will let him use.
People really like to overestimate how strong Archer actually is, in part because he's really good at making people think he's better than he actually is (its part of how he fights dirty).
As for doing a compatible summon with Shirou, that's honestly pretty unlikely to give Archer. Would probably at best give someone super self-sacrificing like Siegfried. Very much a crapshoot though.
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UNKNOWN01
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Never said than in an actual, one-on-one prolonged fight he would win, I said that it would be a One-Shot fight, and I already said how things would most likely play out.
While Archer is indeed a weakling compared to Gil, he doesn't need to be strong; he needs to be able to pull out UBW and be able to strike Gil before he wipes him off the map with Ea.
One quote that I remember about Gil vs Archer describes perfectly my thoughts on the situation:
A user of reddit said:
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All this talk about EMIYA and Dioscuri is unfortunately irrelevant. Summoning EMIYA is my preference as well, but there is no way that happens without us blatantly metagaming and praying for a miracle that makes no sense for Kerry to try IC. Castor and Pollux meanwhile are Greek heroes, not Japanese ones, so I'm not sure how they even got brought up in the first place. That's BEFORE the QM explicitly warned that attempting to summon them would have complications, something we absolutely do not need. Both of those get a hard nope from me.
Artoria would be powerful, and could beat Gil with Avalon to win the Grail, but she's likely to try and use said Grail afterwards. Assuming the kids could convince her that the Grail was a corrupt lie, she's actually a solid pick. She's the best option so far that's been stated, but that really not saying much when the other two are basically invalid.
I think our best bet here is Archer Nobu. Japanese servant, relatively recent but well known (nice fame/homeland bonus), and arguably most importantly is more powerful the more Mystery and Divinity her opponents have. Gil is the oldest hero (hello there, mystery!) and is only lacking A+ divinity because he doesn't like the gods. There's a youtube video that I share opinions with which explains my views on the subject better than I can without just rewriting their arguments. It's honestly the best chance I can think of since I don't know too many Japanese servants to begin with. Getting someone who can theoretically fight Gil as well as all the other high mystery/divinity Servants that Magi favour? Getting someone with a bonus against everyone with the (surprisingly common) riding skill? Someone without an explicit wish for the Grail, who would thus probably be fine with helping the kids destroy it all? Alignment is Lawful Neutral on top of it all, I think it's the best shot we have of a semi-controllable Japanese servant that could win. Especially since Archer Nobu carries along a sword.
QM ruled out tracing Nobus guns (makes sense since Shirou has a sword affinity) but I still think gunning for Nobu is the best chance we have of our kids surviving and hopefully even winning this war. It's a long shot, but EVERYTHING here is a longshot. If we're taking a crapshoot I'm voting for the option I think is least likely to explode on us. If QM had intended for us to pick any Japanese Servant aside from Nobu we can re-discuss this.
[X] Plan No Better Options
-[X] Aim for a specific class: Archer
-[X] Aim for a specific Heroic Spirit: Oda Nobunaga
Any last words (Choose one)?
[X] Path of Family, which kept getting ripped away from you.
To whom (Choose one)?
[X] Fate, Illya, and Shirou
Artoria would be powerful, and could beat Gil with Avalon to win the Grail, but she's likely to try and use said Grail afterwards. Assuming the kids could convince her that the Grail was a corrupt lie, she's actually a solid pick. She's the best option so far that's been stated, but that really not saying much when the other two are basically invalid.
I think our best bet here is Archer Nobu. Japanese servant, relatively recent but well known (nice fame/homeland bonus), and arguably most importantly is more powerful the more Mystery and Divinity her opponents have. Gil is the oldest hero (hello there, mystery!) and is only lacking A+ divinity because he doesn't like the gods. There's a youtube video that I share opinions with which explains my views on the subject better than I can without just rewriting their arguments. It's honestly the best chance I can think of since I don't know too many Japanese servants to begin with. Getting someone who can theoretically fight Gil as well as all the other high mystery/divinity Servants that Magi favour? Getting someone with a bonus against everyone with the (surprisingly common) riding skill? Someone without an explicit wish for the Grail, who would thus probably be fine with helping the kids destroy it all? Alignment is Lawful Neutral on top of it all, I think it's the best shot we have of a semi-controllable Japanese servant that could win. Especially since Archer Nobu carries along a sword.
QM ruled out tracing Nobus guns (makes sense since Shirou has a sword affinity) but I still think gunning for Nobu is the best chance we have of our kids surviving and hopefully even winning this war. It's a long shot, but EVERYTHING here is a longshot. If we're taking a crapshoot I'm voting for the option I think is least likely to explode on us. If QM had intended for us to pick any Japanese Servant aside from Nobu we can re-discuss this.
[X] Plan No Better Options
-[X] Aim for a specific class: Archer
-[X] Aim for a specific Heroic Spirit: Oda Nobunaga
Any last words (Choose one)?
[X] Path of Family, which kept getting ripped away from you.
To whom (Choose one)?
[X] Fate, Illya, and Shirou
UNKNOWN01
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I can see the logic on most of it, but... Wouldn't Nobu use the Grail to conquer the world or something?
EDIT: Also, Tally Ho!
If anyone has any better idea or has been swayed or convinced by the information that has been disclosed, then I guess now is as good moment as any to change votes.
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Honestly, Nobu is a pretty poor choice.
The anti-mystery stuff is neat, but it isn't actually a super strong effect.
And more importantly, her personality will be really problematic for this situation.
Someone like Raikou, Kintoki, or Yoshitsune (aka Ushiwakamaru) is probably a better choice.
The anti-mystery stuff is neat, but it isn't actually a super strong effect.
And more importantly, her personality will be really problematic for this situation.
Someone like Raikou, Kintoki, or Yoshitsune (aka Ushiwakamaru) is probably a better choice.
Hearing this i think our best shot is artoria, we'll have to make sure the kids explain in detail just why the grail is a bad thing to use, but that's the only bad part i can see, and it's not that much of an issue.
[X] Aim for a specific class: Saber
[X] Aim for a specific Heroic Spirit: Arturia Pendragon
[X] Change the summoning location to somewhere other than the cursed park: The shed in your backyard
[X] Path of Family, which kept getting ripped away from you.
[X] Fate, Illya, and Shirou
[X] Aim for a specific class: Saber
[X] Aim for a specific Heroic Spirit: Arturia Pendragon
[X] Change the summoning location to somewhere other than the cursed park: The shed in your backyard
[X] Path of Family, which kept getting ripped away from you.
[X] Fate, Illya, and Shirou
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What is angelform exactly?
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@justinkal @AnonymousRabbit @The-Chained-One @Nottheunmaker @BookMouse @PurposefulZephyr @reborn214
QM gave us the above warning about Dioscuri, might wanna re-evaluate that vote. Also:
Not much point in directing children to break into someone else's property and hope the flashing lights and noise of the summon goes unnoticed. Better to find a different place with enough magical energy in the air to summon a Servant successfully.
The problem with those three is that AFAIK they get completely fucked by Gate of Babylon. Gil can sit around all day as they fail to get through the hail of weapons. On temperament alone those three are fantastic (Raikou goes mom mode, Kintoki is all about defending kids and the innocent, and Ushi is completely loyal to the wishes of her summoner despite her savagery to all others) but IMO none of them can take on Gil and win. At the very least none of them have better odds than Artoria, who is the "safest" choice in that we know she "can" defeat Gil and give up the Grail. Sadly we don't know how likely it is that she'll do so, it took some serious personal changes in the Fate route but there she didn't know the Grail was corrupt for the majority of the route. In UBW she doesn't change nearly as much on a personal level but still accepts and faces the Grail's corruption before willingly destroying it.
Bluntly, none of the servants you mentioned are in the running because they don't really have a shot at beating Gil IMO. The main points to consider in regards to which Servant to give our kids is as follows, in no particular order:
1. Is it possible to summon them?
It's all well and good to say we'll summon Enkidu, Arjuna, or *cough*Dioscuri*cough* but it doesn't matter if they aren't Japanese or the one stated exception. Trying to summon with constellations as Catalysts is almost worse than using nothing, we're just as liable to get someone random like Orion as we are Castor and Pollux, assuming it works at all and we can "use" the constellations from so far away! I'll grant that Orion isn't a weak Servant either, but the problem THERE becomes the explicit warning the QM gave about the grail fucking with the summoning process of C&P. It wasn't explicitly stated why, if it was due to an attempt to summon a Divine Spirit, if it was because of the unreliability of star catalysts, or something else, but there's not much point in speculation if we know there will be attempts at fuckery. Cool idea, would love it if it worked, but by WoG the execution is liable to fall apart. I don't want to take the chance we get someone weak and almost unknown like Cassiopeia (who's whole "legend" is her bragging pissing off Poseidon, her daughter Andromeda being sent out as a sacrifice to appease said god, and then Cassiopeia being tortured to appease Poseidon after Perseus freed Andromeda). Granted, I don't think she'd be applicable to be summoned, I think it's more likely the summoning just fails and our kids have to try again and summon someone without us (if they can). Either way the result is undesirable, I don't like these odds.
2. Can they defeat Gilgamesh?
There is only one Servant who we know for sure will be in the next Grail War, and he's the big bad elephant in the room. To win the war Gil has to go down, otherwise he'll actively choose to set off the Grail. Rin is dead and we can't rely on some rando getting the pendant and choosing to summon with it over a historical catalyst, meaning no EMIYA to face Gil or teach Shirou. If Gil is going to be brought down, our Servant will have to be ready and able to do the deed. Raikou is not weak, but she has no counter to the Gate of Babylon that would allow her to rush and blitz Gil. If she got in close she would probably kick his ass but to me it seems almost certain that she'll be pincushioned or Ea'd first. Similar deal with Kintoki and Ushi, every situation I can think of involves them being riddled with holes. They're all straightforward servants like Artoria, but unlike her they don't have Excaliblasts to counter Ea or Avalon to defend and move in for a definitive strike. There may be other Servants who could potentially get past the GoB, like Nagao Kagetora and her skill "Armor is on the Chest" which causes an effect similar to reality warping to ensure projectiles miss her unless ". . . the shooting is done with enough aggression, to the point where she believes the possibility of her getting hit, the protection could be penetrated." The problem THERE is that I'm not confident in her ability to overwhelm and kill Gil quickly enough, his standard technique is literally to just increase his rate of fire. Nobu could temporarily stall Gil's rate of fire with her own, then if she used it quickly enough she could kill him with her "Demon King of Sixth Heaven" Noble Phantasm. It's a Reality Marble wherein Nobu weakens and burns away at Divinity and Mystery (depending on how much there is) potentially to the point of evaporation. Considering the combined amount of those two Gil has it's plausible he gets burned away into nothing before he can Ea the RM out of existence.
3. Can they be trusted?
If the Servant is one that is explicitly fighting for the wish of the Grail, how trustworthy they are depends on whether or not they believe that the Grail is corrupt and if they value their wish or their morals more. Cu for example doesn't give a damn about the wish and will obey almost any command. Nobu and Artoria both have problems here. Despite ostensibly being Lawful Neutral, Nobu is infamous for her sporadic I-don't-give-a-fuck behaviour. She has no direct wish, but isn't actually "good" and might care less about the Grail spitting out evil and more about showing off what a badass she is by defeating other servants and winning. With Artoria, the only real reason NOT to summon her is here. Do we trust her sense of right and wrong towards the people of the modern era more than we believe in her lust for a wish?
Damn, putting it like that I've convinced myself into changing my vote. Artoria is very determined for her wish, but she explicitly refuses to sacrifice innocent lives in the process. Killing a magus who got involved (even a shitty one that did it by accident like Shirou) is one thing, but if she was really as fanatical towards her wish as we're acting then she'd have been perfectly willing to prey on the people of the city for more power . . . which she avoids. She even praises Shirou for his unwillingness to consider it for even a moment, despite the crippling lack of mana leaving her at her weakest. Yeah, I think I trust Seibah. We don't have to convince her that her wish is wrong and that she should live for herself, we just have to ensure she knows the corruption is a certainty and she'll do the right thing and help.
Artoria is unironically one of our best bets here, simply because we know she can win this fight. Especially with the massive power influx for more Excaliblasts and better stats. Summoning her is less a gamble on the victory (that's always a gamble but again here we definitively know she can pull it off) and more a gamble on mentality, which I think is a sucker's bet now that I'm carefully thinking about it and not just getting swept up in Kiritsugu's paranoia. I can't speak as much for her characterization in Zero, but in the VN she was totally cool with destroying the Grail when she knew for sure it was corrupt. AFAIK in Zero she never learns about the corruption, is it any wonder Kiritsugu can only see her as a fanatic desperate for her wish? She's ultimately a strong, good person. We can trust her to help, and we can trust that she CAN win. Here's hoping the post-game dice rolls go well.
The name of the account which made the only current vote for Artoria, one that involves breaking into the shed we no longer own. If we're sticking with Artoria the park should be fine, its the only place rich in mana from the leylines I can think of that we can quickly and easily access without complications. Besides, Salter shouldn't actually be possible to be summoned. Even if that does happen, that version of Salter (by summons and not Grail mud corruption) shares the same ideals as normal Artoria at heart. She downright approves of her Master fighting to save the world, of facing "repulsive enemies and the more powerful adversaries." She's also just as happy to train her Master as vanilla Artoria, she's just more caustic in how she speaks and goes about these things. She's still Artoria, in the end.
[X] Plan Trust Seibah
-[X] Aim for a specific class: Saber
-[X] Aim for a specific Heroic Spirit: Artoria Pendragon
-[X] Change the summoning location to somewhere other than the cursed park: N/A
Any last words (Choose one)?
[X] Path of Family, which kept getting ripped away from you.
To whom (Choose one)?
[X] Fate, Illya, and Shirou
Something else to consider is that Gil will only get involved if something actually catches his interest. If the war is overly simple, there's a solid chance he'll just ignore it, feeling its not worth his time.
He's around, but he's not actually obligated to participate. Participating is completely a choice he can make.
Bringing in Artoria will basically guarantee that he participates.
And really, Gil is not someone you can plan for. For everyone, even Artoria with Avalon, the answer to that question is "if they get lucky".
UNKNOWN01
Nobody knows me... I feel lonely!
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But Gil is interested in the Grail, and we need to destroy it.
We will inevitably end up fighting against him to stop him from using the Grail.
AnonymousRabbit
Rabbit Faced
EMIYA is going to straight up murder kid Shirou. Like this is a horrible idea. He only got blocked from killing Shirou all those times was because Saber was around. This is seriously the worst idea ever. Shirou being a kid won't stop him from tossing the kid out.
UNKNOWN01
Nobody knows me... I feel lonely!
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Alright, I think you honestly don't get Archer at all.
As I said before, EMIYA hates his ideals, and his principal objective is to make sure no version of Shirou becomes himself.
If that version of Shirou isn't an idealist and abandons them, then he will probably be fine around him.
If he doesn't, then that's the moment he goes into his 'Kill Shirou' mode.
AnonymousRabbit
Rabbit Faced
No, you don't understand. Archer won't ask questions or wait for Shirou to show his ideals. He's going to jump that kid. Like straight up. This is a horrible idea, don't do this.
Archer has done worse in his tenure as a CG than kill a single kid, ganking Shirou on sight is right on the table. He's tried to kill Shirou several times in the routes every opportunity he gets.
That kid is just going to get served in front of him and he's gonna jump him.
So why do you believe that Emiya using UBW would work out better than Alexander using Ionioi Hetairoi? Gil is one of the few people in Fate who have the tools to simply 'lol-nope' reality marbles.
AnonymousRabbit
Rabbit Faced
Besides that even if EMIYA pulls off UBW, Gil just has to wear his armor and no sell UBW. That armor is basically indestructible.
Dioscuri can go grab Zeus' lightning and just blast Goldie with a tag team combowombo.