Elven Empire Quest (CK2)
- Thread starter Powerofmind
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TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
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- Northeast Ohio, United States
Decent turn, even if we didn't get much fortification done. Hopefully Aldegard's issue will calm down. In the meantime we need to give her the less critical jobs.
Here's a pitch for the next plan. Improving the soil needs to be done to get enough food income to be self sufficient, or close to self sufficient. The sooner we do that the better our food situation will be as we eat through less of our reserves. The pioneers should be able to improve soil by plowing in dung and plant matter, if they can't use magic somehow.
I want a linking circle in order to establish proper contact with home. We need that to coordinate any help we'll be getting, and for Aldegard to be significant in home politics, whether she opts to pursue the throne or not. It's a magic related task and important, so our experts from the Expedition will need to take care of it.
Finally, we know we've got hostiles, so proper fortifications are a good idea. These are probably the least time critical task, though, as we just recently sent the nomads packing, so Aldegard can work on it for now even though there's a chance she'll not get it done.
Improved shelters would be nice but we can live without for now. Building more infrastructure can wait until the soil is up to par; that'll hamper our efforts otherwise. Monolith and spirit stuff is the reason we're here, but that can wait until our immediate needs are taken care of.
One of our two scouting options - old fashioned scouting and a scrier's tower - would also be nice, but can wait at least a turn. We know we've got hostiles and are preparing for them now in case of an attack anyway. Preparations for the nomads will help us against other threats that might be out there.
Going after the nomads immediately is likely to just rile them up and could easily cost us combat losses we cannot soon replace. If we're lucky we can teach them to ignore us by bloodying their noses when they come around and ultimately not have to deal with them. If we're unlucky, we can deal with them after we've gotten reinforcements from home. We brought an expedition, not an army. Finally, I don't expect the pioneers have much of great use that they aren't already using for whatever tasks we give them, and going through their stuff might be rather unpopular. Best not to.
[X] Plan Balanced Build Up
-[Pioneers] Improve the local soil
-[Expedition] Establish a permanent linking circle (not pioneers)
-[Aldegard] Improve upon the settlement's defenses
Here's a pitch for the next plan. Improving the soil needs to be done to get enough food income to be self sufficient, or close to self sufficient. The sooner we do that the better our food situation will be as we eat through less of our reserves. The pioneers should be able to improve soil by plowing in dung and plant matter, if they can't use magic somehow.
I want a linking circle in order to establish proper contact with home. We need that to coordinate any help we'll be getting, and for Aldegard to be significant in home politics, whether she opts to pursue the throne or not. It's a magic related task and important, so our experts from the Expedition will need to take care of it.
Finally, we know we've got hostiles, so proper fortifications are a good idea. These are probably the least time critical task, though, as we just recently sent the nomads packing, so Aldegard can work on it for now even though there's a chance she'll not get it done.
Improved shelters would be nice but we can live without for now. Building more infrastructure can wait until the soil is up to par; that'll hamper our efforts otherwise. Monolith and spirit stuff is the reason we're here, but that can wait until our immediate needs are taken care of.
One of our two scouting options - old fashioned scouting and a scrier's tower - would also be nice, but can wait at least a turn. We know we've got hostiles and are preparing for them now in case of an attack anyway. Preparations for the nomads will help us against other threats that might be out there.
Going after the nomads immediately is likely to just rile them up and could easily cost us combat losses we cannot soon replace. If we're lucky we can teach them to ignore us by bloodying their noses when they come around and ultimately not have to deal with them. If we're unlucky, we can deal with them after we've gotten reinforcements from home. We brought an expedition, not an army. Finally, I don't expect the pioneers have much of great use that they aren't already using for whatever tasks we give them, and going through their stuff might be rather unpopular. Best not to.
[X] Plan Balanced Build Up
-[Pioneers] Improve the local soil
-[Expedition] Establish a permanent linking circle (not pioneers)
-[Aldegard] Improve upon the settlement's defenses
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[X] Plan: Outpost Functionality
-[Aldegard] Improve upon the settlement's defenses
-[Expedition] Improve the local soil
-[Pioneers] Sort through all of the trinkets and belongings of the refugees for useful tools
Aldegard's got high Stewardship and apparently colonial infrastructure confuses the colonists, so have the residents sort through their own belongings, I suppose. Maybe that'll get them productive.
Expedition includes Forma mages, the elementalists, so either they or Aldegard can use Forma to build fortifications or improve the soil. Not sure which would take more magic, but I'm betting the soil probably requires more effort, so I'll leave it to the apprentices.
I don't see the point in establishing permanent contact yet; I'd rather do that after the binders and channelers arrive.
-[Aldegard] Improve upon the settlement's defenses
-[Expedition] Improve the local soil
-[Pioneers] Sort through all of the trinkets and belongings of the refugees for useful tools
Aldegard's got high Stewardship and apparently colonial infrastructure confuses the colonists, so have the residents sort through their own belongings, I suppose. Maybe that'll get them productive.
Expedition includes Forma mages, the elementalists, so either they or Aldegard can use Forma to build fortifications or improve the soil. Not sure which would take more magic, but I'm betting the soil probably requires more effort, so I'll leave it to the apprentices.
I don't see the point in establishing permanent contact yet; I'd rather do that after the binders and channelers arrive.
- Location
- California
[X] Plan: Outpost Functionality
Or there is major headway into research. Ideally, communication is set up before people get here, so they can be directed in the desert without getting lost.
JmonsterNEO
Spouter of nonsense
- Location
- The quest forums
[X] Plan: Outpost Functionality
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
I've got three reasons for you;
First, we never actually told them where we are. They're going to need to know that before they can leave.
Second, if the Empress dies soon it might be critically important for Aldegard to be able to have a hand in home politics, for any of a variety of reasons.
Third, this might be Aldegard's last chance to speak to her mother. That could be psychologically important for her and keeping her stable.
I'm very concerned about the morale implications of going through the refugee's personal belongings, and it's hard to imagine they have much that's useful that they're not already using. I think they're probably pretty low on ancient magical artifact heirlooms. It would really be better to use that slot on something else.
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
[X] Plan: Outpost Functionality
While hilarious, this level of ignorance was not something I expected from someone who's called "Savant of administration and management".
While hilarious, this level of ignorance was not something I expected from someone who's called "Savant of administration and management".
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How would they not know where we are? There's settlement around the Heart, and the Heart is the only place where research could be conducted, being the epicenter of the blast. Furthermore, when Aldegard contacted the attendant, he nodded and had no questions about where to direct the master mages.
I'm kind of curious to see interactions between Aldegard and Mava, but I don't think the Empress is going to die in the next year. Maybe she will, but it's no sweat off my back if they fail to exchange last words. It could help or harm Aldegard, who knows?
Your last point is why I have the pioneers (aka the refugees/residents of the place) go through the belongings. No morale hits if it's their own stuff. I assumed the tools would be trade tools-- beneficial to the outpost-- since yeah, they're not gonna have magical artifacts. All of the options have some utility, presumably, and if this is low-hanging fruit, might as well grab it.
- Location
- California
I think the word is, moral, as opposed to morale, but I'm not sure we can send out the pioneers to scout or secure more food supplies.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Do they know for certain that the center is the only place that research can be conducted, or is that something we discovered after we'd spent a long time here? It's a fairly large assumption. And if we're around to talk to while reinforcements are being organized we can better tell them what we need, guide them past any dangers, and so on. Reinforcements might be much more effective, bring more, and be better tailored to our needs.
Also, if there's any chance we want Aldegard on the throne, the sooner we're in regular contact the better.
As we saw this turn, if Aldegard is less than psychologically stable that is most certainly sweat off our backs.
We'd still be asking them to give up stuff for the expedition to use. And why would we be able to use tools better than they could, when any tradesman's tools are almost certainly already possessed by practitioners of those trades? The option doesn't make a lot of sense. Far from low-hanging fruit, I think it's a low effectiveness trap option. We would be better off with just about any other option.
Morale is the correct word, moral refers to principle, as in 'the moral of the story' or 'good moral character'. Morale refers to the general level of enthusiasm and optimism in a group.
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- California
[X] Plan Balanced Build Up
Thinking about it, if the pioneers had tools then they probably would've offered them after we healed them.
Thinking about it, if the pioneers had tools then they probably would've offered them after we healed them.
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The updates are fairly short, but provide us with the info we need. If the binders and channelers truly have no idea where to go, why wouldn't the attendant ask? Why wouldn't Aldegard include that crucial bit? Why wouldn't the expedition remind her?
EDIT: Also, Aldegard being on hand to guide reinforcements is much more micromanage-y than necessary, I feel. The mages will come prepared for a long-term endeavor in the mana wastes, and human nomads aren't a threat to them.
To be honest, the tools options is strange compared to all the others. I looked at it and wondered if it could truly be useless, since we can neatly extrapolate the effect of every option except that one. I think it's more likely that it is a low-hanging fruit type than a trap, though if @Powerofmind wants to clarify, that'd be great.
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TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
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- Northeast Ohio, United States
He was just an attendant, not a military planner, and being rushed, and had bigger things on his mind. As for why Aldegard wouldn't mention it, she seemed extremely eager to hang up at the time rather than confront anything emotionally difficult. And nobody else in the expedition might know if she handled the call alone.
Telling reinforcements about the basic dangers to keep in mind and the best route is reasonable without being micromanagement, as is mentioning the most needed supplies and the like.
And again, being able to have a hand in Empire politics could be critically important, as could the effect on Aldegard's psychological stability.
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- California
Maybe, the effects of mana are starting to affect her thinking? Granted, she has the Mental Resilience trait, but I wouldn't be surprised if the environment chips away at her psyche. We just have to be careful that we don't end up like the pioneer colonist before we arrived.
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Mm, I'm skeptical that the master mages sent to reinforce Aldegard's expedition will need guidance about the basic dangers or the supplies they need to take. Perhaps there is a "best route" to take, but that can easily change if, for example, new spirits made their home in that terrain, or human nomads changed their raiding paths. Like I said, the updates are short and spare on detail, so I lean towards "people acting competently" than the opposite.
The most compelling argument for a permanent link is for character development. IMO, I think there's a good chance interaction between Mava and Aldegard will turn out poorly, and there's also a good chance staying away (if the Empress dies soon) might have the same effect. I'm interested in the effects doing it and not doing it will have on Aldegard, but I don't think her mother will die that quickly, and I want to get the expedition firmly settled.
It could be. In that case, Aldegard has to keep using her mana instead of preserving it, but that'll be down to dice roll. If it turns out to be a trap, the kind where "why did she do that?" is a valid question, it's good to know she's being affected.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
They haven't been in the alien environment of the wastes, which have their own concerns, but I was actually more concerned with the supplies we most need more of. They have no real way of knowing that unless we tell them.
I think you might also be discounting the importance of having a hand in Imperial politics if necessary. That's a huge factor to consider. If we don't get that circle up, we have no input at all on what happens at home.
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Sure, they might not have personally been into the wastes, but it's been centuries since the mana wastes sprang into being. The elves would know of what generally to prepare for; they have reports and previous explorers to rely on. I trust the elf government would know to prepare reinforcements for going into deserts, or arctic tundras, for example, even if individuals may not have ever been there.
As for the supplies we most need, what are you thinking of? We're already planning to improve the soil. Fortifications and infrastructure have to be built on-site; research also has to be local. Presumably the master mages will bring the magical things they need with them.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
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- Northeast Ohio, United States
If I recall correctly, before we went into the wastes the people that went in generally didn't return. I think there's a real paucity of information.
As for supplies we need, they don't know we found a very large number of refugees, for starters. That's going to dramatically throw off any sort of supply estimates they make for what we'll have used up by now. By their calculations we won't need food for many years, but that's out the window, and the same is probably true of medicine and other things. Then there's anything needed to treat mana sickness issues, which we're going to need a lot of, and if there are any proper magical aids or specialists for improving the soil they'll probably be better than what we can improvise in the field. If they could bring some expert farmers that'd probably be a good idea, and they won't know we need any unless we say something.
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Some returned. Enough that when Aldegard's expedition set out, they survived for forty years or so. There's a good chance expedition members have sent messages back home over that time.
I don't see how supplies warrant enough concern to establish permanent communication. If people want to see interpersonal drama (and possibly some interaction with court), that's a good reason to vote for it. However, food is not a concern, because there's still a stockpile and we have plans to improve the soil. Magical aids may help in the latter (which is why I have expedition mages on it in my plan), but since you assigned the pioneers in yours, you're open to mundane means of soil improvement, right? Medicine doesn't solve mana sickness either; Aldegard's solution to curing the colonists was to have them using mana in appreciable amounts and going through withdrawal.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
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- Northeast Ohio, United States
Look, I realize you want to defend the plan you came up with because it's yours and you feel protective of it, but you're just making a long list of assumptions not in evidence here to try to find some justification for going with it.
- You're trying to make up for your mistaken belief that the Empire knew the Wastes well by assuming that people from this expedition got messages home. Given that they were surprised Aldegard was alive, that doesn't feel like a sound assumption.
- You're assuming that any improvements we can make in the soil will work, and will work enough that they'll be enough to address our food issues. Those efforts could fail or be insufficient. Our stockpile is running out quickly.
- You're assuming that any magical aids in the empire will not work better or more efficiently in the things we need to do. What if doing something with the proper tools takes far fewer actions than doing it without? What if we need proper tools to get up to a level that is adequate for our needs?
- You're assuming that there are no medicines or tools or specialists back in the Empire that can help with mana sickness, just because Aldegard came up with another solution. One solution existing doesn't preclude other, possibly better solutions. There might even be a way to protect people in the outpost from getting mana sickness in the first place.
Foregoing contact with the Empire, making it so we are unable to coordinate and unable to have any influence on the Empire and the succession, just so that we can leaf through the belongings of the refugees? In order for that tradeoff to make sense we would have to find something more useful than anything reinforcements could bring, more useful than influence on the succession, in the belongings of refugees that they aren't already using.
If you step back from the fact that it's your plan and really rationally evaluate it, how likely is that sequence of events to really be the case?
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If people want to see interpersonal interactions and politics, the permanent link is definitely the option to vote for.
I understand you're frustrated by the amount of assumptions I'm making, but considering the short length of the updates, educated guesses are what we have to go off of.
First, I think the Empire knows the mana wastes well enough that any groups sent there will be well-prepared, due to the importance of solving the elven affliction and the expedition's own survival for over forty years. Second, all the colony improvement actions we've taken so far have succeeded, so while I don't know the degree of success, I'm fairly confident supplies will indeed not be a problem. You posit that there could be magical aids or medicines that are better suited than the solutions Aldegard & the expedition are making as they go along. If there are, I don't see anything more than marginal benefits, because I doubt securing food/safety/health/etc will take many turns. I mean, it could take 1 more turn, or 6 turns; the extra supplies reinforcements may bring could shorten those 6 turns down to 3 turns, or maybe it doesn't make a huge difference and it takes 1 turn anyway.
Without the QM's word, it's all assumptions we're making, and I think my own assumptions have a good basis. That's why I've stated the character argument is the best reason for voters to choose one plan or not. I find it interesting if Aldegard chooses to place herself at a remove from her relatives and the court when it's such a crucial juncture, singularly focused on helping to solve the affliction that forever changed the course of her life. If she does choose to interact, I find that interesting, too, but this distance and determination is what I want to see.
So I end up having an open slot for the pioneers, and I choose the tools, because I think it's safe for them, low-hanging fruit, or-- as others have pointed out-- even a trap, since it's a weird option compared to the other ones.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
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- Northeast Ohio, United States
That was me, I pointed that out.
If your only argument left is that you don't know what to do with the pioneers, you've got lots of options. Shuffle things up so they're making fortifications and Aldegard does something else, for instance. Or have them make infrastructure. Or have them double up with improving the soil or doing fortifications so we get further. Lots of more productive options.
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Yeah, you and RookDeSult pointed out that it might be a trap. It doesn't fit with the rest of the options, but all the options taken have been productive so far, so I'm curious to see what it'll do. That's why I'm not having them build infrastructure or double up on the soil.
I wonder if Eris would eventually swing by, especially if Aldegard makes no further contact? She's one of the foremost Lux masters and she seems like the kind of person to try and reconcile family at the end of their mother's life. She doesn't really understand what Beren or this expedition means to Aldegard.