Successor (BTVS)
- Thread starter DeAnno
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[X] Kill The Wicked Witch. The cosmos deserves to have hope for a better future.
DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
Even if you want to fight both, who you fight first has an enormous effect because it's a 2v1 among three people of similar power. If you kill The Wizard first, then his spell will break and maybe the Wicked Witch can escape. Plus the fact that the Witch has agreed to help your friends after you kill the Wizard, making killing her right then kind of bad timing. If you kill the Wicked Witch first, then you're fighting The Wizard, more powerful than any of the others, in his own tower with only Harmony and other marginal combatants as backup.
If you want to try to fight them one after the other in spite of this, stunt the one you want to kill second under the one you want to kill first.
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Anyone else getting uncomfortable echoes of Twilight Angel? That more than anything else has me leaning towards
[X] Kill The Wizard. Save Oz and its people from untold levels of destruction.
[X] Kill The Wizard. Save Oz and its people from untold levels of destruction.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Oh, hey, it's the post series comics storyline where they destroy magic.
- Location
- Vancouver
I just looked through the chapter again, and I love all the little bits of symbolism placed throughout it. The rooms they passed by in the vents were great, showing off some of the mayoral side of things with the nice rooms but also the kittens and bloodstains, showing the sacrifices we made too.
It's interesting how Power and Order are white colored, while Death is black. The Wizard seems to be stronger than the Witch, but they both seemed to think he couldn't kill her, which I'm guessing is due to the lack of black he has. Not that seems to have stopped him from making a ritual that will kill everyone on Oz.
I think this is an interpretation of the Sundering yeah, though not everything is sunshine and daisies in the Buffyverse. As the Witch pointed out, Evil still exists. The First Evil and lesser bad entities are still out there, causing havoc. Wolfram & Hart might not be like the The Powers that Be/Old Ones, but their reach is spread out over the earth and other dimensions.
I think this is Angelus, though in Oz, good is bad and bad is good. It fits with Angelus being all about chaos and spending time pointlessly killing and torturing a few people just for evil's sake and The Wizard being all about Order and necessary sacrifices for the greater good. Also we have a nice little reversal of Ms Calendar being the one to attack and try and kill Angelus when he's in the middle of a big ritual. At least that was my impression of it.
It's hard to tell which one is a better choice here. The Wicked Witch of the West has been helpful to us, and will give our allies what they need, but she's without a doubt evil and cruel. The Wizard wants to make things better, but he's paranoid and unwilling to trust anyone else with power, to the point that he'd break apart the universe to stop others having that strength, even those that seem to be good. Trying to kill both is risky, and might just make things worse for everyone. If we kill the Wizard and then fail to kill the Witch before she flees, all we've done is take out one of the few protectors of Oz and let evil run rampant (and probably not even get the things our companions want either). Though if he won his view of life seems too stilted and controlled to really be called living if his city is anything to go by.
I can't think that either side has the right way to do things, and I'm not sure that just killing and killing and killing is the best way to do things but the alternatives are tyranny or annihilation. So, yeah, I'll go for trying to kill both, as risky as such a proposition would be.
[X] Kill The Wicked Witch.
-[X] Kill The Wizard. Save Oz and its people from untold levels of destruction.
--[X] Don't commit everything to killing the Wicked Witch at first, conserve energy and let the Wizard expend more of his
--[X] See if you can whisper to Harmony in the middle of the battle and get her to take the Lion away to tweak/alter the tower runes to give you a better chance against the Wizard once the Witch is dead
It's not much, but hopefully those sub votes will make it a bit easier to win against the Wizard's Power. What does everyone think of that plan?
It's interesting how Power and Order are white colored, while Death is black. The Wizard seems to be stronger than the Witch, but they both seemed to think he couldn't kill her, which I'm guessing is due to the lack of black he has. Not that seems to have stopped him from making a ritual that will kill everyone on Oz.
I think this is an interpretation of the Sundering yeah, though not everything is sunshine and daisies in the Buffyverse. As the Witch pointed out, Evil still exists. The First Evil and lesser bad entities are still out there, causing havoc. Wolfram & Hart might not be like the The Powers that Be/Old Ones, but their reach is spread out over the earth and other dimensions.
I think this is Angelus, though in Oz, good is bad and bad is good. It fits with Angelus being all about chaos and spending time pointlessly killing and torturing a few people just for evil's sake and The Wizard being all about Order and necessary sacrifices for the greater good. Also we have a nice little reversal of Ms Calendar being the one to attack and try and kill Angelus when he's in the middle of a big ritual. At least that was my impression of it.
It's hard to tell which one is a better choice here. The Wicked Witch of the West has been helpful to us, and will give our allies what they need, but she's without a doubt evil and cruel. The Wizard wants to make things better, but he's paranoid and unwilling to trust anyone else with power, to the point that he'd break apart the universe to stop others having that strength, even those that seem to be good. Trying to kill both is risky, and might just make things worse for everyone. If we kill the Wizard and then fail to kill the Witch before she flees, all we've done is take out one of the few protectors of Oz and let evil run rampant (and probably not even get the things our companions want either). Though if he won his view of life seems too stilted and controlled to really be called living if his city is anything to go by.
I can't think that either side has the right way to do things, and I'm not sure that just killing and killing and killing is the best way to do things but the alternatives are tyranny or annihilation. So, yeah, I'll go for trying to kill both, as risky as such a proposition would be.
[X] Kill The Wicked Witch.
-[X] Kill The Wizard. Save Oz and its people from untold levels of destruction.
--[X] Don't commit everything to killing the Wicked Witch at first, conserve energy and let the Wizard expend more of his
--[X] See if you can whisper to Harmony in the middle of the battle and get her to take the Lion away to tweak/alter the tower runes to give you a better chance against the Wizard once the Witch is dead
It's not much, but hopefully those sub votes will make it a bit easier to win against the Wizard's Power. What does everyone think of that plan?
- Location
- USA
So it wasn't just me , thinking this has some serious echoes of the logic behind destroying the "Seed of Wonder" ?
Never really been fond of any of those stories about 'remove magic from the world, it will be more boring and lessened but safer'. And while Blueshift's plan is interesting, I feel like the Witch is more likely to flee a losing fight to deal with later while the Wizard might just activate his irreversible badness if any of us are too distracted. Angel is big on heroic sacrifice right?
[X] Kill The Wizard. Save Oz and its people from untold levels of destruction.
- Location
- Texas
[X] Kill The Wicked Witch. The cosmos deserves to have hope for a better future.
-[X] Kill The Wizard. Save Oz and its people from untold levels of destruction.
WHAT WAS, WILL BE; WHAT WILL BE, WAS
Most other dimensions don't seem that nice, the witch is right that evil lurks in the hearts of all. Besides, our mandate is to KILL.
-[X] Kill The Wizard. Save Oz and its people from untold levels of destruction.
WHAT WAS, WILL BE; WHAT WILL BE, WAS
Most other dimensions don't seem that nice, the witch is right that evil lurks in the hearts of all. Besides, our mandate is to KILL.
- Location
- Before the Ninth Gate
The wicked witch is literally Miss Calendar. Quite possible not a bad guy. Also, a major theme of this story is that Demons aren't always the bad guys.
"It's the Wicked Witch of the West! I really wish we'd missed her."
Again, do we really want to help Angel, or maybe Angelus, kill her a second time?
I feel that no one every reads my posts about this world seeming to be the opposite of everything in the buffy world. While miss calendar was good in buffy world here she appears to be evil. Angel well he is neither good nor evil. Because he is both a good and bad guy, depending on his soul.
- Location
- Before the Ninth Gate
I don't think the opposite thing is correct though. WIllow became the Cowardly Lion, and is still good.
I don't think she is Miss Calendar at all, I think she is supposed to be the First. The First had an episode in season 3 where she tried to torment Angel into killing Buffy, and it spent most of the episode wearing a Jenny suit.
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- Location
- Before the Ninth Gate
You're right. I did a reverse image search, and the picture is from the First.
Search - TinEye
The quotes in the picture are:
"You think you can fight me" and "I am something you can't even conceive", both of which are from the First speaking as Jenny Calendar saying:
In light of this:
[X] Kill The Wicked Witch. The cosmos deserves to have hope for a better future.
-[X] Kill The Wizard. Save Oz and its people from untold levels of destruction.
Though this is metagaming a good deal. @DeAnno : Is this sort of metagaming okay in your game? Or should we stop? Because we definitely haven't heard of the First in game yet.
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DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
You have every right to (attempt to) metagame with information from Season 3; it's already happened. Buffy knows who the First is, even if her memories are too foggy in the dream to consciously recall. Also, I would not have used that image if I didn't intend to.
In a larger sense, I'm pretty OK with metagaming, even S4-7 metagaming when you use it to choose choices Buffy might pick IC anyway, or use it to argue for those choices. The only thing that I feel would cross the line is if you Write-In specific actions that Buffy would have no way of knowing to do (for example, research and invade Pylea to recruit Fred or go to the Vineyard to look for the Scythe.) Basically, you're allowed to have excellent instincts, but you can't use alt-future foreknowledge as actual strategic precog.
Honestly, I think you're both putting too much importance on what characters the people in Oz are based off of. I don't think this is Angel and Jenny Calender, or the First, or anyone else. All of this is a dream. Oz isn't real, the Wicked Witch and the Wizard aren't real, they're presumably some kind of symbolic representation Buffy's mind has conjured up to try and make sense of the mystical message about the original Sundering the artifact under City Hall is currently blasting into her subconscious.
The people here look like Buffy's friends/allies/enemies because they're who she's most familiar with and it's her dream, not because they are in any way actually those people. The choice here should really be based on whether we want Buffy to be the sort of person who is willing to hurt and/or kill innocent people for a perceived greater good, or someone who refuses to commit the lesser evil even if it leads to more suffering in the long run.
At least that's my take on things. And since I've personally really enjoyed reading about that slippery slope Buffy's been on for most of this quest, I shall vote for:
[X] Kill The Wicked Witch. The cosmos deserves to have hope for a better future.
Although I have just seen DeAnno's post above saying that they used the image of the First intentionally, so maybe I'm the one who is wrong
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[X] Kill The Wicked Witch. The cosmos deserves to have hope for a better future.
The Wizard is trying to kill his way to a better future, just like Buffy. Go with him.
The Wizard is trying to kill his way to a better future, just like Buffy. Go with him.
WyldCard4
Unregistered
[X] Kill The Wicked Witch. The cosmos deserves to have hope for a better future.
So my thoughts:
-The Wicked Witch of the West is the First, and Jenny Calendar.
-Wizard of Oz is Angel, and Angelus.
So we are deep in symbolism land of flipped morality, seeing a kind of world deeper then our own.
My choice between the two was based on instinct, but spelling it out I think there's an irony here that helps justify things. In one sense, we are fulfilling the time loop in the dream, but that's not the only recurrence. In symbolism land, if we kill the Wizard we're replaying Acathla, one of the scenes that fucked Buffy up the most.
Kill someone with Angel's face again, we are saying the past has more value than the future. Let this Oz be destroyed as it was, and Sunnydale gains more importance to Buffy's reality and demonic empowerment.
So my thoughts:
-The Wicked Witch of the West is the First, and Jenny Calendar.
-Wizard of Oz is Angel, and Angelus.
So we are deep in symbolism land of flipped morality, seeing a kind of world deeper then our own.
My choice between the two was based on instinct, but spelling it out I think there's an irony here that helps justify things. In one sense, we are fulfilling the time loop in the dream, but that's not the only recurrence. In symbolism land, if we kill the Wizard we're replaying Acathla, one of the scenes that fucked Buffy up the most.
Kill someone with Angel's face again, we are saying the past has more value than the future. Let this Oz be destroyed as it was, and Sunnydale gains more importance to Buffy's reality and demonic empowerment.
- Location
- Germany
[X] Kill The Wizard. Save Oz and its people from untold levels of destruction.