That's just how the cookie crumbles, sometimes. Like I said, personally, I do not see much difference between that and WoG being posted in thread after you made your plan.
Because the discord user has already had days to plan based on the true WoG. The info that the thread received when it was time to CHOOSE was made equivalent, because that benefits the discord user, but the info in the thread when it was time to idly dream up ideas for the future was different.
 
I don't like discord as a QM because I like to talk to people. Inevitably in the course of chatting I will reveal information to the discord that the thread does not have, and then suddenly there's an asymmetry. That's just from the QM side, though.

I never personally had that problem myself as a QM. I just declared anything I say in the discord to be non canon to be subject to change depending on future developments such as player choices, dice rolls and the whims of the QM. If I share any canon information in the discord, I just share in the thread so the thread knows. The QM sharing canon information outside of the thread and that information not getting back to the thread is a problem, but doesn't make discord a problem as the problem is the QM sharing information outside the thread and neither the involved players or the QM not sharing that information in the thread. I've seen multiple quests with discord avoid that so it isn't a problem with discord. Discord might make the problem worse or reinforce it, but it doesn't cause it.

I am also annoyed at your implication that you don't get to have proper talks with people discord. That is blatantly untrue and obviously so if you use the discord. I can talk to people in the Discord just as much as I can in a thread on SV and sometimes more so as discord allows for voice chat while SV doesn't. Just because it is more of a quick chat than thought out posts doesn't mean that you are talking to people less.

Edit: Then again, we have different takes as QM and run different sort of quests so what might be fine for me might be problems for you. I still firmly disagree with the implication that you can't properly talk with people on Discord.

That's just how the cookie crumbles, sometimes. Like I said, personally, I do not see much difference between that and WoG being posted in thread after you made your plan.

No, that is a problem, but it isn't the result of discord being a problem. A QM sharing canon information in the discord, but not sharing in the thread is problem, but that is the fault of the QM and not the discord. It could just as easily be the QM sharing canon information in a PM. Discord just happens to be the method in which is done so it gets the blame because it makes for a convenient scapegoat if you don't use it.

I was all for discord before I was reminded of Paths of Industrialization. That quest really soured me on it. But I don't think this quest is going to get that worse.

I respect AcademiaNut as a QM and enjoy their quest, but the problems with PoI was the mechanics forcing the plan makers to privately discussion plans and then present the thread with a plan and maybe one or two variants of it with the alternative of not picking that plan being stat failure. The plan makers might have used discord because they found it convenient, but if there was no discord, they would have just used the PMs because the problem wasn't discord, but a handful of players being the ones to come up with the viable plans and the mechanics making it so only a few viable plans that only a handful of players could come up with.
 
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I was all for discord before I was reminded of Paths of Industrialization. That quest really soured me on it. But I don't think this quest is going to get that worse.
Discord wasn't the cause of cabal in PoI, the fact that few players had disproportionate powers and were practically required to cooperate lest they sink the whole state was. Cabal was inevitable, in this circumstances, because it was the only way it could function. If there wasn't Discord, they would've made one.
Because the discord user has already had days to plan based on the true WoG. The info that the thread received when it was time to CHOOSE was made equivalent, because that benefits the discord user, but the info in the thread when it was time to idly dream up ideas for the future was different.
Wouldn't really be the case here, as the plans and options are discussed during the moratorium, so all relevant WoG would be posted then, and not when it's time to vote.
Do you think our legion will be bundled up with another or sent off on it's own?
I think for now all legions are all moving as one big group.
 
I am also annoyed at your implication that you don't get to have proper talks with people discord. That is blatantly untrue and obviously so if you use the discord. I can talk to people in the Discord just as much as I can in a thread on SV and sometimes more so as discord allows for voice chat while SV doesn't. Just because it is more of a quick chat than thought out posts doesn't mean that you are talking to people less.

I think you somewhat misinterpreted me...I'm saying that I really like chatting with people and get excited to talk about my quest but I can't restrain myself when I talk and so I end up divulging information inevitably when I'm on discord because it's far more real-time.
 
I think you somewhat misinterpreted me...I'm saying that I really like chatting with people and get excited to talk about my quest but I can't restrain myself when I talk and so I end up divulging information inevitably when I'm on discord because it's far more real-time.

That's fair. I misread what you were saying even if I get it in hindsight.

I don't have that problem myself. Well, I do, but it is with ideas that aren't set in stone so I go all "Hey guys, what do you think of this idea" and use Discord to refine ideas that may or may not be used in the future. Actual canon stuff that is set in stone is something I am going at keeping track of and when it does come up in the discord, I make sure to share in the thread, which I try to have open in another tab when I am on discord so I will share any relevant canon information in the thread as it comes up in the discord.

Actually, when I think about it, I actively take measures to avoid having secret WoG in the discord that is hidden from the thread just so that problem doesn't occur in my quests because I hate it when it happens in other quests. If there is canon information that gets shared in the thread, it is irrelevant stuff like what do these people eat or what does that group of people wear. World building trivia in an original setting that doesn't have any quest and the vote due to the scale at the quest takes place at.
 
Hasn't there been enough bitching about Discord now? Can't we talk about the glory of Rome or bitch about Carthaginians, Gauls and false Alexanders?
There's been plenty of that, apparently. Jokes about conquering india, a note by telamon that the silk road isn't much of a thing right now, some great points by godwinson about a wide variety of things we should never try to do, The nucleus of a plan about gold mines in spain, an idea that at the very least has not been shot down.

It's all in discord, so massive chunks of the thread will never bother see it.
Wouldn't really be the case here, as the plans and options are discussed during the moratorium, so all relevant WoG would be posted then, and not when it's time to vote.
That's still only one day less of dissonance.
 
There's been plenty of that, apparently. Jokes about conquering india, a note by telamon that the silk road isn't much of a thing right now, some great points by godwinson about a wide variety of things we should never try to do, The nucleus of a plan about gold mines in spain, an idea that at the very least has not been shot down.
I want those gold mines in Dacia instead.
 
I'm not entirely sure what do you mean by that. It's the day after the update, so no one would have days to secretly make their own plan in the cabal with all the information or anything.
A lot of options remain across turns. For example, I wanted to meet with Marius this round because i think he's gonna keel over soon, but dropped that for now in favor of everyone's favorite crone because I otherwise quite liked publicola's plan. Next turn, i intend to argue for that again. This analogy works better, I admit, in situations where we know how many actions slots we will have, but next turn we will see how much free time a Marian campaign leaves us.

Beyond this, "plan" here does not refer only to the next turn's scripted options, but also to the goals one sets for the future. For example, this thread seems to follow a general tone of intending to defect to Sulla. Imagine the consternation if some discord WoG revealed that to be unviable and was only mentioned in thread when it came time to make a critical vote where that was relevant.
 
I was all for discord before I was reminded of Paths of Industrialization. That quest really soured me on it. But I don't think this quest is going to become the shitshow that one was anytime soon.

By the end of POI, everything important happened on the discord.
PoI's mistake was that the playerbase refused to follow my plans

So, just follow my plans and you'll be fine.
 
Beyond this, "plan" here does not refer only to the next turn's scripted options, but also to the goals one sets for the future. For example, this thread seems to follow a general tone of intending to defect to Sulla. Imagine the consternation if some discord WoG revealed that to be unviable and was only mentioned in thread when it came time to make a critical vote where that was relevant.

Then Telamon is a bad QM for revealing that critical information in the discord and not sharing it in the thread and the players in the discord are a bunch of gits for keeping that information to themselves until the second to last moment. Yet I extremely doubt that or something similar will happen or things will ever get that bad.
 
A lot of options remain across turns. For example, I wanted to meet with Marius this round because i think he's gonna keel over soon, but dropped that for now in favor of everyone's favorite crone because I otherwise quite liked publicola's plan. Next turn, i intend to argue for that again. This analogy works better, I admit, in situations where we know how many actions slots we will have, but next turn we will see how much free time a Marian campaign leaves us.

Beyond this, "plan" here does not refer only to the next turn's scripted options, but also to the goals one sets for the future. For example, this thread seems to follow a general tone of intending to defect to Sulla. Imagine the consternation if some discord WoG revealed that to be unviable and was only mentioned in thread when it came time to make a critical vote where that was relevant.
I get you now, but I think that concern is misplaced. Discord questions and WoG answers are, due to chat room nature, usually very specific and focused on situation, and the more you move away from the current turn, the more unclear and subject to change the situation becomes. So, the WoG for more general questions is either not given (how would you know that?), or QM has time to consider it and posts answer both here and in the thread. Same with random tidbits, they usually relate to the situation at hand, not to something far away. So there isn't really any difference between planing in Discord or planning in thread for general planning.
 
I want those gold mines in Dacia instead.
That's certainly closer to our current path! And we DID get options to get personal favors from locals in exchange for various nonsense during our last occupation.
Then Telamon is a bad QM for revealing that critical information in the discord and not sharing it in the thread and the players in the discord are a bunch of gits for keeping that information to themselves until the second to last moment. Yet I extremely doubt that or something similar will happen or things will ever get that bad.
It requires no evil for this to happen, only the most minor laxness and lack of foresight. Take this example:
There is no immediate relevance to this statement. No reason to post it in the thread. But to everyone who followed the discord, any idea that might depend on the existence of the silk road is now closed off forever.

In the thread, meanwhile, someone might come up with a plan that relied on some city being wealthy due to the silk road and no-one would have any particular motivation to shoot them down until it became a vote.

However, while this is the issue that most annoys me personally, it is not the one that is actually the most damaging to the quest. Said issue is when the secret discorians, instead of destroying a plan, create one. Not in the sense of a specific vote, but rather a goal. To use the gold mine plan as an example, if shared in this thread then the plan may spread to all the posters. Voters of every faction are gradually exposed to the idea, brought around over time, and hash something out long before it becomes relevant, and we chose in the end to go to Dacia like Thyreus just said. Now take on the other hand, the possibility of the plan remaining on discord until it is time to choose. By the time a vote to influence where to get sent begins, the two groups will dream different dreams, creating bitter disunity.
 
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There is no immediate relevance to this statement. No reason to post it in the thread. But to everyone who followed the discord, any idea that might depend on the existence of the silk road is now closed off forever.

In the thread, meanwhile, someone might come up with a plan with a plan that relied on some city being wealthy due to the silk road and no-one would have any particular motivation to shoot them down until it became a vote.

That is history and you can look up history to find that out. If Telamon has making things different to real life such as the Silk Road existing before it did, then you might have a point, but complaining that Telamon is confirming that he hasn't made a major change to the setting is just ridiculous. If someone doesn't do their research and makes a plan based on something that doesn't exist in history yet, then it is their own fault when their plan falls apart.

This complaint is just ridiculous. Like many things, the Silk Road doesn't exist yet and complaining it is unfair to the thread that Telamon has confirmed that he isn't making a major change in the discord is just silly. The thread isn't being hard done by. The thread doesn't need Telamon to tell them that the Silk Road doesn't exist yet and he shouldn't need to do that.

However, while this is the issue that most annoys me personally, it is not the one that is actually the most damaging to the quest. Said issue is when the secret discorians, instead of destroying a plan, create one. Not in the sense of a specific vote, but rather a goal. To use the gold mine plan as an example, if shared in this thread then the plan may spread to all the posters. Voters of every faction are gradually exposed to the idea, brought around over time, and hash something out long before it becomes relevant, and we chose in the end to go to Dacia like Thyreus just said. Now take on the other hand, the possibility of the plan remaining on discord until it is time to choose. By the time a vote to influence where to get sent begin, the teo groups will dream different dreams, creating bitter disunity.

Yes, yes, the "secret discordians". If you think that the discord, which is made up of players in the thread, is going to grow into some splinter group then, you are delusional. Despite your insistence, the existence of a discord is going to turn things into a matter of the thread vs the discord. The two things are fundamentally intertwined and you are going off about something that doesn't exist. There isn't an conflict between the thread and discord and regardless of your insistence otherwise, there won't be one.

You are chasing after a windmill at this point. The people in the discord aren't some evil cabal of posters who are going to oppressive the thread with secret knowledge and force them to follow their preferred course of action. If you think that the people in the discord are going to hash out a secret course of action that they are going to force upon the poor thread goers, then I am sceptical that you have been involved in a thread discord. A discord simply doesn't get that organised and doesn't have that amount of sway over the thread. The discord is fundamentally part of the thread as it is made up of posters from thread. The people in the discord and the people in the thread? They are same people.

Your premise is fundamentally flawed because there isn't two different groups as all members of one group are members of the other group.
 
That is history and you can look up history to find that out. If Telamon has making things different to real life such as the Silk Road existing before it did, then you might have a point, but complaining that Telamon is confirming that he hasn't made a major change to the setting is just ridiculous. If someone doesn't do their research and makes a plan based on something that doesn't exist in history yet, then it is their own fault when their plan falls apart.

This complaint is just ridiculous. Like many things, the Silk Road doesn't exist yet and complaining it is unfair to the thread that Telamon has confirmed that he isn't making a major change in the discord is just silly. The thread isn't being hard done by. The thread doesn't need Telamon to tell them that the Silk Road doesn't exist yet and he shouldn't need to do that.
And yet this thread is filled with so much history WoG that it possesses the tag "A Cleverly Disguised Roman History Course", so clearly we need telamon to tell us some historical things.
Yes, yes, the "secret discordians". If you think that the discord, which is made up of players in the thread, is going to grow into some splinter group then, you are delusional. Despite your insistence, the existence of a discord is going to turn things into a matter of the thread vs the discord. The two things are fundamentally intertwined and you are going off about something that doesn't exist. There isn't an conflict between the thread and discord and regardless of your insistence otherwise, there won't be one.

You are chasing after a windmill at this point. The people in the discord aren't some evil cabal of posters who are going to oppressive the thread with secret knowledge and force them to follow their preferred course of action. If you think that the people in the discord are going to hash out a secret course of action that they are going to force upon the poor thread goers, then I am sceptical that you have been involved in a thread discord. A discord simply doesn't get that organised and doesn't have that amount of sway over the thread. The discord is fundamentally part of the thread as it is made up of posters from thread. The people in the discord and the people in the thread? They are same people.

Your premise is fundamentally flawed because there isn't two different groups as all members of one group are members of the other group.
"secret discorians" is just the latest in a bunch of flowery joke names. I've been doing it this whole time. I know that it's the same people now, the entire second half of the post you quoted is about how the thread will MAKE them different groups by giving them different goals over time, as little details far too unimportant for individual conveyance add up.

As for evil, I said at the very beginning of the response that I was not afraid of malice, but rather of the incredible effort needed to keep the thread constantly on the same page. Effort I remember from the Yucatan Discord. The discord that we both took part in. Yes, this discord could have the dedicated and perceptive posters needed to keep it working, but I don't see any reason to take that gamble.
 
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I don't quite understand the objections around Discord. We are all playing the same game and there's a moratorium for hashing out strategy, and this isn't a competition between people, we're supposed to collaborate. If anything, Discord would facilitate acquisition of information from the GM to the thread to create better plans.

Cooperation, not competition.
 
I don't quite understand the objections around Discord. We are all playing the same game and there's a moratorium for hashing out strategy, and this isn't a competition between people, we're supposed to collaborate. If anything, Discord would facilitate acquisition of information from the GM to the thread to create better plans.

Cooperation, not competition.
Why can't we extract that info in the thread instead, without risk of it getting lost on the way and dividing the community? It's not like telamon has shown himself to be afraid of posting side info in the thread before, he just posted an entire recounting of Rome's founding myth from a current perspective for no reason.
 
Woops, accidentally created a post earlier with a tally. Publicola's plan is currently in the lead for those unaware.

Personally what I find that sets apart from the others is "The City of the Kings of Asia." It allows us to lay the groundwork for subverting local elements and building up a measure of support. Mithridates biggest advantage is the local support he enjoys, both in the Greeks and Persians. If we manage to recreate the success we had in Samnium here, fostering local support for Rome while subverting Mithridates, we'll be at a bigger advantage when dealing with enemy forces in the region.
 
I don't quite understand the objections around Discord. We are all playing the same game and there's a moratorium for hashing out strategy, and this isn't a competition between people, we're supposed to collaborate. If anything, Discord would facilitate acquisition of information from the GM to the thread to create better plans.

Cooperation, not competition.
While you are correct that Discord likely won't create that big a dissonance between the two sites, saying that quests are about cooperation rather than competition is somewhat naive. In all quests, each voter has a different idea of what they want out of a quest. These goals become even more divergent in large and detailed quests like these. Quests are very much NOT cooperation. They are a competition of appealing to the natural biases that SV generally exhibits to garner votes in favor of your own vision, same as any other democracy.

Take my vote for example. I wanted to Overshadow the guy to cut off the risk of not being the central authority of our Legion and Mars Cult. They want to be friendly because they feel we lack enough political allies - I disagree with that thought but that isn't the point here. Being friendly or professional is very much conflicting with Overshadowing the guy. We have two conflicting goals. Furthermore, I am personally leaning Marius over Sulla, so there is another potential conflicting goal. I would have to compete and inevitably lose any and all votes because I cannot successfully overcome such a large bias, especially with Approval Voting meaning that people are more likely to coalition between similar plans to avoid the slightest chance I could succeed at what I want because what I want diametrically opposes what they want. Nonetheless, that does put my own goals in direct competition with those of many of the other voters, and therefore is a valid example wherein different plans for the quest can make cooperation impossible.
 
@PyrrosWarrior , to be fair, I think a lot of us are Marius-over-Sulla types and populares over optimates types. The main reasons we're cautious about being loyal to Marius are:

1) Marius is likely to die very soon, and if he doesn't manage to kill Sulla before he dies, everyone who supported Marius is in very deep trouble.
2) Also, Marius seems even more indifferent to basic principles of Roman law than Sulla, and for the "save the republic" crowd, this seems kind of dangerous.
 
@PyrrosWarrior , to be fair, I think a lot of us are Marius-over-Sulla types and populares over optimates types. The main reasons we're cautious about being loyal to Marius are:

1) Marius is likely to die very soon, and if he doesn't manage to kill Sulla before he dies, everyone who supported Marius is in very deep trouble.
2) Also, Marius seems even more indifferent to basic principles of Roman law than Sulla, and for the "save the republic" crowd, this seems kind of dangerous.
Oh don't worry. I am not very committed to either of those sides at the moment. That's why I said "leaning." It's not really as much an issue with me at the moment as consolidating personal power among our legion and strengthening the Cult of Mars is.

That said, I am leaning Marius simply because I believe it to be far too late to have a shot at saving the republic.

Sorry for the late answer. My power was taken out. It is on right now, but I have no clue if it will stay that way.
 
Why can't we extract that info in the thread instead, without risk of it getting lost on the way and dividing the community? It's not like telamon has shown himself to be afraid of posting side info in the thread before, he just posted an entire recounting of Rome's founding myth from a current perspective for no reason.
Telamon is writing them because he is a huge nerd and it helps us immerse ourselves in Atellus' world.
As far as that specific information goes, it's not exactly obscure knowledge and I'm one hundred percent sure that if it had been brought up in thread, someone would have shot it down. It's not like the Discord people will stop reading this thread, considering they still have to vote.
Personally what I find that sets apart from the others is "The City of the Kings of Asia." It allows us to lay the groundwork for subverting local elements and building up a measure of support. Mithridates biggest advantage is the local support he enjoys, both in the Greeks and Persians. If we manage to recreate the success we had in Samnium here, fostering local support for Rome while subverting Mithridates, we'll be at a bigger advantage when dealing with enemy forces in the region.
While true, we are a bit at a disadvantage here. Unlike the Pentri we were helping, the Greeks are probably not tired of the war yet and just managed to push Marius of all people back.
 
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Woops, accidentally created a post earlier with a tally. Publicola's plan is currently in the lead for those unaware.

Personally what I find that sets apart from the others is "The City of the Kings of Asia." It allows us to lay the groundwork for subverting local elements and building up a measure of support. Mithridates biggest advantage is the local support he enjoys, both in the Greeks and Persians. If we manage to recreate the success we had in Samnium here, fostering local support for Rome while subverting Mithridates, we'll be at a bigger advantage when dealing with enemy forces in the region.
Seems like that would work better with the other option related to learning about greek rivalries and such, rather trhan the one focused on the city we're going to be leaving soonish.
 
@Telamon It is another one of those posts (The first part is about definitely forgotten XP, the second part is about what I would argue can be viewed as a missed study action).
Those who follow the thread closely, might have seen me complain once or twice about how little Sertorius contributed to our Military Stat. Over the whole Samnite War it only grew from (0/10,000) to (6,793/10,000). More than half of which was due to battle gains. I had some time to spare and went through the old updates and here is what I found:
Military XP gain from first study session with Sertorius:
Military XP Gained: 1000
(1000/10,000) to Rank 14
Next XP from the Battle of Aeclanum:
Military XP Gained: 2000
(2000/10000) to Rank 14
Here we have our first mistake! It should be Military (3,000/10,000), continuing on to 2nd study session:
Military: 1d1000 + 200 (Gift of Minerva) = 583
(2583/10000) to Rank 14
(3,583/10,0000), next some gains from an Omake:
500 military XP, which brings you around to (2983/10000) to Rank 14!
We only gain 400 instead of 500. Correct value at this point would have been: (4,083/10,000); on to the gains from the Battle of the Tabelline Pass:
912 Military XP Gained!
(3895/10000) to Rank 14
(4,995/10,000), next gains from another Omake:
+400 XP to Military XP, bringing you up to (4295/10000) XP to Rank 14
(5,395/10,000), next gains from the 3rd study session:
Military (Training With Sertorius): 1d1000 +200 (Gift of Minerva) = 1033
(5295/10000) XP left to Rank 14
Small mistake, we only gained 1,000. It should now be (6,428/10,000); and finally gains from the Siege of Nola:
1500 Military XP Gained!
(6793/10000) to Rank 14
Another tiny mistake costing us 2 XP. In sum I find we should be at (7,928/10,000) instead of (6,793/10,000) so we are missing 1,135 Military XP.


Looking back at this I was shocked to find we seemingly only gained (1,000 + 583 + 1,033) 2,616 XP from studying with Sertorius? We started studying with Sertorius during Samnite Campaign Turn 2, then met him again in Turn 4 and then one final time in Turn 10. So we only studied with him for three turns. Which appears correct, since the requirement was ...
For as long as the campaign lasts, you will gain 1d1000 Military XP per turn unless you or Sertorius is incapacitated or a meeting becomes otherwise impossible.
... and we went to Aeclanum in Turn 3 and stayed at Bovanium from Turn 5 to arguably Turn 9 (we interacted with Sertorius at the end of that turn).

That said, during De Lupis Romae we also did our tribune/personal actions so I can't see a reason why we didn't have time to study with Sertorius. In general that update was mechanically very similar to Turn 10, where he had time to teach us. Especially since De Lupis Romae was a two month long turn, lasting from early September to early November.

I would argue there is a Sertorius roll missing here, unless the 1,500 XP gained that turn included both the gains from the three month long siege AND two months worth of study sessions.
 
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