Well, there we are, letting Amy stay. Vote is closed. Winners are Amy gets to stay, Amy has to succeed, and Amy gets threatened, though in a measured fashion.
 
S3.5E8: When People Talk With Grues IV
[X][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.
[X][TRY] Amy will go back to jail unless negotiations with the Rat King are productive. She's too likely to coast by or even actively sabotage things if she doesn't have a strong incentive to make it work.
[X][EXILE] While she's dangerous, having Amy around is also useful, as proven by this very situation. She's talking a big game now but Buffy thinks she can keep her under control, and if she's allowed to stay she might cooperate more helpfully.
[8/14][APPROACH] Amy is selfish and basically unredeemable, but she can be motivated by threats of violence and consequences. Buffy will be confrontational in negotiations and play on Amy's fears to get her to do what she wants.


Buffy sighed. Honestly, she should've expected things to be like this; Amy wasn't the type for penitent reform, and she'd decided she was the least bad option anyway. She just had to present things in a way Amy could understand.

"Let's put it this way, Amy. Through your stupid actions a month ago, you put my family in danger and you screwed up my town. If you want to get out of being punished for that, you're going to have to actually unscrew my town and undanger my family."

"You should take what you can get," Amy said defiantly. "The case against me is full of-"

Buffy had been holding her hammer casually in reverse grip, like a walking stick. She cut Amy off, jamming the topspike into the floor hard and making a terrible noise digging it an inch into the concrete. Amy flinched back and shut up.

Buffy had just about had it. "I think you're misunderstanding the situation here. Maybe you do get cleared of all charges in court. You still want to live in Sunnydale after that? I know you're guilty. Everyone who works for me and keeps the town safe knows you're guilty. Do you think Sunnydale would be safe for you? That you'd get to live and work in peace?" Buffy applied some one handed air quotes to the line she lifted right out of Amy's mouth.

"Rack's gone. Digby's dust. Teeth's stuffed corpse is going to be on display in the Lodge a month from now, when they finally finish renovating. The only reason you're even in jail is because I was merciful in the first place." Buffy knew she wouldn't have killed Amy, but it would be easy to make Amy doubt that. It was really the only way this was going to work, though it was a shame about the floor.

Amy was quiet, her earlier defiance shattered. Matt was stone-faced; if he had any issue with her coercive tactics, his quiet disgust for Amy was overriding it. Willow didn't seem disturbed by the dark turn Buffy had taken, though she could see Xander giving her some side eye. Buffy decided she could finish on a slightly more positive note. "This is your last chance, Amy, right now. Are you going to come out and take it?"

"So I do get to stay if I make you a deal with this Rat King right?" Amy said carefully. "No more prison or threats or extra stuff?"

"Just don't step out of line, and we'll see," Buffy said. Buffy wasn't sure if Amy was really cowed, or just acting. Even if she was scared now, would it last?

Willow rolled her eyes. "Fat chance of that."

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"I'm not sure what some of these invocations are calling to," Amy said. "Are you guys sure this is safe?" She was sitting on the floor against the wall of the clean room, warily paging through the old tome that was half scribbles and had the language spell in it.

"Would you rather go back to jail?" Buffy asked. "You're the experienced witch, figure it out."

Amy shrank back, looking like a cornered rat. "If my head explodes or something I'm not going to be able to do you any good!"

"Is it too hard for you Amy?" Willow taunted. "Maybe you need to pop a few pills to get going first? We could swing back to the station, they've probably got some in evidence."

"Oh stop it with the junkie line," Amy snarled. "It's really not the same at all. And I was totally justified to relax a little after spending months on the wheel."

Buffy coughed significantly.

"Not that I'll be doing it again," Amy said quickly. "And I'll be reporting any activity like that too of course, if I happen to notice it."

Willow scoffed, and Amy went back to flipping through the book. Buffy paced back and forth, tightening her grip on the hammer like the shaft was a stress ball. As far as she'd been able to tell, it was completely inviolate even to the worst abuse she could dish out. It was nice to have something she didn't have to worry about snapping in frustration.

Buffy and Willow were the only ones in the clean room with Amy, just in case something went wrong with the spell and they needed to get rescued from the backlash. Between the two of them she was confident Amy wouldn't try anything, but it made for a tense environment.

After a few more minutes, Amy finally spoke again. "OK, I think I've got this." Buffy didn't think she looked sure, but she also didn't really care. If Amy had to learn by experiment that was no skin off her nose, and Willow was ready to stop her if she did any suspicious casting.

Amy turned back to the middle of the book, and then started chanting about rats, and cheese, and rats, and tunnels, and teeth, and rats. It seemed pretty repetitive, but Buffy was having a tough time paying close attention to the words. Willow wasn't bothered, but Amy looked like the pressure on her was slowly building up. Sweat beaded her brow, the pace of her words increased, and she dragged the book back with her into the corner as the chant reached a crescendo, a manic fear obvious on her face.

By the end of the spell, Buffy wasn't sure if she was hearing English or Ur-Rat, and before she could figure it out Amy's words stopped and the book slammed itself shut. A silence echoed through the room.

Buffy was the first to break it. "Did it work?"

Amy's response was a susurrus of squeaks and chitters that didn't sound like anything that should come out of a human mouth. Unlike Lindsey's use of the language earlier, it was clearly unnatural, and Buffy found herself cringing back, creeped out.

"Amy, that's Rat. Did you forget English?" Willow almost sounded hopeful, though Buffy wasn't sure what use she would be to them if it was true.

Amy looked concerned for a second, and after some more Rat, she finally broke back into English "- does sound a little weird. Oh. It's really hard to tell." She switched back and forth between squeaks and the alphabet a few times, trying to get the hang of it. "OK, this isn't so bad when I'm paying attention to it. And it was way less work than French."

"No time like the present to make a deal then." Lindsey was at least pretending to want to get things done, so Buffy thought she could get him back in the conference room before sundown. Better to try now before anything else could go wrong.

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This time, Buffy was ready at the negotiating table first. Ian and Anya were back to continue where things left off, and Buffy had Amy sitting right next to her, conveniently in arm's reach should the need arise. Willow took Amy's other side, still leery of letting her out of her sight, and Xander had joined them for this round as well. It was a bit of an unwieldy group, but with six people instead of three at least Lindsey's gaggle of nameless minions wouldn't outnumber them.

Amy hadn't been wearing actual prison duds, but her outfit had definitely gotten a little worn down during her time in jail. Buffy hadn't been concerned, but Cynthia had been worried about impressions and sent her to the City Hall showers while fetching something more appropriate from home. In hindsight it was probably better to have her more smartly dressed so she didn't stand out from the group as much; Buffy was already worried that Lindsey might be able to suborn her mid-meeting.


Before too long, Lindsey's party filed in, the Rat King swarming over a seat and stretching onto the table as he had before. As before, Buffy had trouble focusing on him too closely, but she noticed Amy perk up at his appearance and start jabbering in Ur-Rat. The Rat King answered with his own fast string of noises, seeming to flow a little farther over the table than usual.

Buffy was about to ask Amy what was going on, but Lindsey cut in first, speaking in his own less fluent sounding Rat. After a brief exchange though, he switched to English with a wary glance over at the Rat King. "I'm aware of your legal troubles Ms. Madison, and the firm would be very appreciative if you didn't interfere with these negotiations."

"Appreciate it how much?" she asked.

Lindsey might have been shaken by the rapid change in circumstances, but he didn't miss a beat. "Not only we could resolve your case to your satisfaction, but you seem like just the sort of person we want working for us. A well paid summer internship could go a long way to smoothing over your transcript, couldn't it?"

"You must really not want them to hear what the King has to say," Amy said playfully. Maybe you could sweeten the deal a little bit?" Buffy gave her a dark look. She'd been afraid this would happen, and warned Amy about Wolfram and Hart, but short of pummeling her in the middle of the meeting she wasn't sure what she could do to head this off.

"Very well paid," Lindsey said. "I think we have an opening in our Paris office, if you'd prefer?"

"And about my transcript. Missing the last few months of school really puts a damper on college applications," Amy said suggestively.

Lindsey smiled all the more widely. "There's a member of the admissions board at Stanford that owes us a few favors. I'm sure he'd be happy to smooth your way."

"Wow, you guys really are desperate," For a moment, Buffy was sure they were going to be back at square one, but then Amy continued, "That seems like a terrible conflict of interest to me. I think it'd be … wrong of me not to inform your client." She snickered at Lindsey, and then leaned forward over the table and started rapid-fire squeaking and chittering with the Rat King again.

Lindsey started speaking in Rat again too, but his damage control didn't seem to be going very well. Buffy still had no idea how to read the Rat King, but Lindsey's manner got more and more defensive as the exchange went on. Eventually he'd stopped squeaking and clicking entirely, but the Rat King just kept going, with Amy making the occasional addition too.

Lindsey sighed. "Well played, Ms. Summers. I really do think you'll be an all-star client with the firm when you see that our goals can align. You've got my card." With that he and the other lawyers got up and marched out, leaving Buffy's team alone with the Rat King. Buffy was honestly kind of shocked.

"There," Amy said triumphantly, turning her head to Buffy. "Does that convince you that I'm trying?"

There had to be something Buffy was missing. Even if Amy was truly intimidated, the enthusiasm she was showing didn't make much sense. It didn't square at all with the obnoxious defiance from before, that was for sure. To her other side Willow was similarly dumbfounded. The Rat King was actually the first to speak with another quick series of noises, and Amy giggled in response.

Xander and Anya exchanged whispers while Amy made a few quick squeaks, but soon she was speaking normally again. "Oh he's such a kidder. But we should get started. You guys really don't have much of an idea what he wants."

"Is there another physical payment he's looking for?" Ian said hopefully, looking through the contract scroll again. He seemed the least surprised by the rapid change in situation, probably because he knew the least about Amy.

"No, Wilkins was just really good at knowing what stuff he'd need," Amy said. "Really he's been pushing to get one of these Pacts through for decades, but the offers kept being too good to ignore."

"We went over those already, didn't we?" Buffy asked.

"I think that lawyer was distorting the intent. They're kind of more diplomatic stuff than anything. Like, OK-" There was another round of squeaks, and then Amy continued. "Like, the Pact of Passage is just him sending some of his nobles to learn about the culture here, what's wrong with that?"

Buffy made herself look directly at the broiling swarm of rats moving in concert, extending up a chair and over part of the table, not sure exactly how to say it. It took a lot to freak her out these days, but the Rat King was definitely close.

"Are they like the Rat King?" Xander asked. "Like, of many scary rats? I think a lot of our fair and less fair citizens might sort of panic if there was a lot of that going on in broad daylight."

Amy seemed confused. "What do you mean? It's not like he's obviously demonic or anything. There's a certain ..." Amy trailed off and her eyes drifted back to the Rat King, a little smile on her face. "A certain exotic aesthetic. But I saw worse shopping at the corner store when I was ten. This is Sunnydale, I mean come on!"

Willow's eyes spread wide with a realization, but she didn't say anything. Amy didn't notice her reaction, but Buffy was starting to put the pieces together too.

"Amy," Buffy began, not knowing quite where to go. "Are you sure you cast the language spell right?" It wouldn't be the first time magic that seemed too convenient had a weird side effect.

Amy rolled her eyes, misunderstanding Buffy's intent. "I know, I know, it sounds too good to be true. But I'm totally sure that's what he's saying!"

Buffy decided to ignore the issue of Amy's altered perception for now to get some more information about the matter at hand. "Lindsey said something about diplomatic immunity. Are they going to run around like, causing chaos and murdering people?"

"No, no," Amy said annoyedly. "I mean, do regular diplomats go around killing people? He just doesn't want them to get arrested for random weird laws they don't know about, like jaywalking or something."

"What do they even want to do then?" Willow asked, her curiosity getting the better of her.

"Do you think that everyone who's the slightest bit dark or demony doesn't enjoy anything but corrupting innocents and murdering babies?" Amy said sarcastically. "They'd pretty much just be tourists. He thinks some of the younger ones could learn the language by immersion, that would be useful. And like, other cultural things. I don't think he really understands money, for example."

"If they don't have money, can they really visit productively?" Anya said. "We can't have them just taking stuff from everywhere."

Amy had another opaque exchange with the Rat King, this one a little more involved. "It could be a problem. I think maybe if we gave them spending money and just knew to exchange it for stuff it would work? He would offer concessions."

"Maybe they could cover up a bit?" Xander said. He seemed to be trying to figure out a way to put it that would make any sense to Amy so she could translate it. "Maybe contained in heavy clothing, or something to make them look more human? We're used to a lot ourselves, but…"

Amy rolled her eyes and there was more squeaking. "I still think you guys are overreacting, but we could figure something like that out. You can provide clothing or illusions or whatever that they'll stay hidden in, for let's say, sixty grand a year total spending money. He mostly just wants enough that they can get the idea."

"That kind of money is a big 'enough'!" Anya complained.

"There are dozens of nobles! It has to be spread around!" Amy defended. Buffy wasn't so sure she wasn't angling for a take herself, but there wasn't much she could do about it if she was, especially after she shut down Lindsey like that.

"We can maybe hammer out those details later," Buffy said. She still thought they might get up to some trouble, and the budget wasn't going to like yet another expense (part of her died a little when she realized she was thinking of $60,000 as just another expense, but it was the equivalent of a handful of SDCW members or a pair of cops), but all told it didn't seem like a ruinous deal. "What about the other options?" She didn't expect much, but to be fair the first one had turned out pretty differently.

"The Pact of Warding is sort of the reverse, it'd be to get some Sunnydalers accustomed to the ways of his Kingdom at a young age," Amy said. "He would assure their safety and provide their education. I think there's probably a magic element to that." Some more squeaks. "Yeah, he would try to teach them the style of magic he and his nobles use. The hope is they'd learn the language fast, I guess."

"Sending a bunch of kids off to another dimension seems like a pretty bad idea, even if they'd be safe," Willow argued. "I mean, how would we even explain it? Who would ever agree? How do we even know they'd be OK, there wouldn't be any adults to talk to."

"It's definitely a step too far," Buffy said.

"Maybe we could do something a little less long-term," Ian said hesitantly. "Mayor Wilkins actually sponsored some pretty unusual school trips in the '80s. Parents don't tend to pay a lot of attention to the details."

"Are we really still talking about sending kids to the Rat Dimension?" Xander interjected.

"It could be an opportunity," Anya argued with him. "It's not like Sunnydale is some bastion of safety and normalcy either. I know there are some half-demon families in the city that would think it was a good idea."

"I could go to help supervise, if people are worried about the language thing," Amy said, trying to be casual. "If it was just school trips and things like that though, he would want them to get going soon, like we should have a voluntary one in August type soon." They chittered some more. "His hope is that some children would be more interested and arrange something longer term."

"Look, I'm not against multiculturalism, but what do we do when some panicked kid comes home screaming about Rats? Where do we even tell the parents they're going?" Xander said.

"I mean, if any of them were really traumatized I could just do a little memory spell at the end," Amy said. "Those ones wouldn't want to go back anyway."

"I could probably set something up to fake it as a trip to Eastern Europe," Anya added. "It's surprisingly similar to the Rat Dimension, from what I've heard." Xander was frowning at her, but she harrumphed at him.

"Let's put some brakes on this train for now too," Buffy said noncommittally. She was pretty skeptical of these school trips, though Wilkins would probably bug her about it in her dreams too if he'd done something similar. "What about the one where we just get a lot of normal rats?"

"Yeah, that sounded kind of odd even to me, let me clarify some things." Unlike some of the more recent exchanges with the Rat King, this one took a while, and Amy didn't seem as sure of herself during the conversation. She was still leaning in at him pretty close, and at one point she adjusted her top, and oh god Buffy was pretty sure that Amy was trying to show some cleavage. She was just going to file that away with her other horrible nightmares and desperately try to forget about it.

Finally, Amy seemed confident enough to start explaining. "OK, so first, the actual rats don't matter much. There is kind of this political expectation that the common rats of his kingdom be given a chance to succeed across the cosmos, but it's just that, a chance. Survival of the fittest applies, they aren't actually sentient."

"So could we just like, march them all from the portal straight into a big trap and make cat food?" Willow asked.

"No, no, that wouldn't be a real chance," Amy said. "And anyway, they wouldn't all show up in one place either, the anti-plague spell would be adjusted to kind of warp them in all over the area of effect. More of them would show up near the hellmouth but it'd happen across the entire city. But you could like, still put down a bunch of poison and traps and stuff everywhere if you wanted, since clever or smart rats could theoretically survive."

"What would he even really gain from that though?" Buffy asked. "I mean, I can kind of understand what he's going for with the other stuff, but this doesn't seem like more than a huge inconvenience."

"The real reason has to do with something like the 'arete of the city'. That's the best translation I can come up with," she said apologetically. "Introducing lots of rats from the Rat Dimension would make Sunnydale and its people rattier by extension in some fundamental way. Some of the more magically or demonically inclined might spontaneously start learning Ur-Rat, for example. The hope is that it would eventually close the cultural gap."

"Is all of this just him trying to get an alliance or something?" Xander asked. "If he just needs us to kill some other demons for him, we're pretty good at that, we could cut to the chase instead of dancing around like we're all in medieval Europe."

Amy squeaked at the Rat King again, and he chittered in response. "He doesn't need anything like that now, but he's concerned about the long term. He doesn't think he's as good at war as we are in general, but if it seems like our Kingdoms, I mean, his Kingdom and our city have close relations, people won't be as inclined to attack him because they're afraid of you."

"We should've probably guessed this when he brought up a political marriage before," Anya said. "People used to do it a lot because it worked for this kind of thing."

"Not that that's an option you need to be thinking about," Amy said quickly. "I mean, Buffy, I know you have… certain tastes, and your mom likes to be pretty insulated from all this stuff right?"

"Yeah, we can pass on the marriage," Buffy said. She almost felt like she should be offended by whatever Amy was implying, especially considering the leg Amy was standing on right now, but the whole situation had gotten so weird that she couldn't muster the emotional energy.

"Great. Because these other Pacts. Definitely better than a bunch of plague, right?" Amy said brightly.

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Vote: Buffy and her friends have heard what the Rat King has to say, and need to decide which of these Pacts, if any, seem like they're a good idea. Alternately, they could still try to steal the bones from Wolfram and Hart instead, or they could just let try to weather the plague effect for a bit and research a magical solution of their own.

[] The Pact of Passage sounds like the safest option. Some mundane people around town might get a little spooked, and the extra expense will sting, but it shouldn't involve any risks that are too terrible. Maybe some confused shopkeepers, at worst.

[] The Pact of Warding has a lot of downsides, but it could reap serious rewards long term in the form of more native magic users. They'll organize sign-ups for a voluntary city-sponsored trip to 'Eastern Europe' in August. A lot of parents with elementary aged kids will want them out of their hair for a while by then anyway.

[] The Pact of Refuge sounds bad on the surface, but at least its a problem that can theoretically be kept under control by entirely mundane means. Sunnydale might end up with more rats than normal, but that's a lot less bad than an actual magical plague, and wouldn't cause many additional complications.

[] All these Pacts are still too much trouble, better just to steal the bones and pay off the Rat King that way for another decade or so. The risks of getting caught red-handed by Wolfram and Hart are pretty massive, however.

Remember, approval voting is always in play.
 
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[X] The Pact of Passage sounds like the safest option. Some mundane people around town might get a little spooked, and the extra expense will sting, but it shouldn't involve any risks that are too terrible. Maybe some confused shopkeepers, at worst.
 
It was interesting to see Amy go with the usual 'you can't prove anything legally so I am safe' and then have that run right into the reality that nobody in this warzone of a town would really give a shit about her legal rights if she didn't find some way to provide recompense for all the damage she did. It feels very much like a throwback to weregild rather than a modern western legal system, but in a way that makes sense once the supernatural gets involved.

EDIT: vote removed

I wouldn't mind getting closer to the rat king, but frankly he just isn't as interesting as raiding WRH and taking what we want from them.

EDIT: I also do think that Amy just made the theft quite a bit easier. There is no way Lindsey left this meeting thinking we were planning to pay with a skeleton. He fully expects one of the pacts to happen, and the idea that we wouldn't go for that would surprise the hell out of him.
 
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A lurker who may keep lurking on average for a while

But do we want to consider trying to do both the warding and the passage, it might be worth the attempt to go above and beyond just to see, we could get a strongish Ally on the other side of the fence
 
[x] The Pact of Passage sounds like the safest option. Some mundane people around town might get a little spooked, and the extra expense will sting, but it shouldn't involve any risks that are too terrible. Maybe some confused shopkeepers, at worst.

Allies are always good and it seems like these guys are probably economic/magical specced , that could be useful.

[x] The Pact of Warding has a lot of downsides, but it could reap serious rewards long term in the form of more native magic users. They'll organize sign-ups for a voluntary city-sponsored trip to 'Eastern Europe' in August. A lot of parents with elementary aged kids will want them out of their hair for a while by then anyway.

An in with the Demon community would be super valuable to get our foot in the door so we have an ally on the inside and aren't going full oppression.

[x] All these Pacts are still too much trouble, better just to steal the bones and pay off the Rat King that way for another decade or so. The risks of getting caught red-handed by Wolfram and Hart are pretty massive, however.

[x]Do two pacts.

Can we do more then one? And I hate to do this again but we might want to keep Amy around or see about hiring a different translator even if we don't pact.
 
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After some thought I'm not quite ready to vote yet, but am leaning towards the Pact of Passage. I can see ways of doing the Pact of Warding that would be fine, but there's a lot of ways that can go wrong, especially with children involved.

Further note: Amy/Rat King OTP.
 

My provisional judgement: if more than half the total voters write this in, in addition to their other votes, the top two chosen options (be they either pacts or stealing) will both win, and the Rat King will either owe you favors or you can get more things from him of an indeterminate nature (probably explored in a future update this episode.)

I think I would put the kibosh on doing more than two total options at this time as the Rat King would be scrambling to find a way to pay you off for one extra thing, let alone two.
 
Oh if we can do two things then I would definitely go for stealing and the Pact of Passage. Passage seems to tie us together better, because people that actually matter (his nobles) are the ones that are getting closer to our town. Some day when the shit hits the fan those guys are going to know humans well enough to participate. The Initiative trying to figure out what is happening with the rat nobles seems fun too.

[X]Do two pacts.
[X] All these Pacts are still too much trouble, better just to steal the bones and pay off the Rat King that way for another decade or so. The risks of getting caught red-handed by Wolfram and Hart are pretty massive, however.
[x] The Pact of Passage sounds like the safest option. Some mundane people around town might get a little spooked, and the extra expense will sting, but it shouldn't involve any risks that are too terrible. Maybe some confused shopkeepers, at worst.
 
[x] The Pact of Passage sounds like the safest option. Some mundane people around town might get a little spooked, and the extra expense will sting, but it shouldn't involve any risks that are too terrible. Maybe some confused shopkeepers, at worst.

Sometimes you've got to spend money to make money and I'm confident that allying with the Rat King will be a good investment down the line.
 
[x] The Pact of Passage sounds like the safest option. Some mundane people around town might get a little spooked, and the extra expense will sting, but it shouldn't involve any risks that are too terrible. Maybe some confused shopkeepers, at worst.
 
[X] The Pact of Passage sounds like the safest option. Some mundane people around town might get a little spooked, and the extra expense will sting, but it shouldn't involve any risks that are too terrible. Maybe some confused shopkeepers, at worst.
 
[X] The Pact of Passage sounds like the safest option. Some mundane people around town might get a little spooked, and the extra expense will sting, but it shouldn't involve any risks that are too terrible. Maybe some confused shopkeepers, at worst.

[X] The Pact of Warding has a lot of downsides, but it could reap serious rewards long term in the form of more native magic users. They'll organize sign-ups for a voluntary city-sponsored trip to 'Eastern Europe' in August. A lot of parents with elementary aged kids will want them out of their hair for a while by then anyway.

Both of these are cool personally. Sunnydale kids have seen some weird shit and a politically protected expedition into another dimension is WAY better than the shit they actually face here, even if the dimension is ratty.
 
I'm glad to see that this turned out rather well for us. We managed to get rid of Wolfram and Hart, have a civil dialogue with the Rat King, and seemingly avoid too many missteps with Amy.


In regards to Amy though we did her a decent deal I'm rather concerned with the manner that she and Buffy interact going forward. While having a threat of action is a passable starting point especially as it got us what we wanted, since Amy is sticking around we should really work on building a relationship up again. Or at the very least maintain more professional stance with her; pay her for services when rendered, have her chip in during world/city ending threats, avoid being directly antagonistic towards her, etcetera.


As to the options presented and skepticism voiced, I'm leaning towards a favorable interpretation of what happened within the negotiations. When combined with my desire to get Buffy to act more like a leader and build relations with as many non-hostile groups as possible to keep propping Sunnydale up without Wilkins' various deals and relationships, choosing both the Pact of Passage and Pact of Warding seems like an interesting idea. I'm going to vote for both, as neither seems that bad, and gives us the potential to drop one if some type of obstruction comes up.


In regards to the Pact of Warding, could we use it to expose police and City Watch to the supernatural in a calm and controlled manner? Attrition is an issue that's bound to come up through death, injury, or simply a lot of the '98s moving on as the summer comes to an end. While it wouldn't be enough on its own, having a visit to the Rat Kingdom could be a useful bit of a training in how to acclimatize with the unusual.


Besides that, what would it take to form a SWAT team or at least some equivalent for Sunnydale? While I get that the CW are the primary means of dealing with the supernatural at the moment, and we probably don't have the budget either, establishing a force specifically meant to deal with high risk tasks and situations could be quite useful in the future —especially since it's my understanding that most of the Police and City Watch are not particularly keen on dealing with serious combat. Considering that it seems we're staking a claim on the whole city larger scale conflict will probably become an issue sooner or later, and having a handful of personnel specifically trained to provide ranged support could come in quite handy.


[X] The Pact of Passage sounds like the safest option. Some mundane people around town might get a little spooked, and the extra expense will sting, but it shouldn't involve any risks that are too terrible. Maybe some confused shopkeepers, at worst.

[X] The Pact of Warding has a lot of downsides, but it could reap serious rewards long term in the form of more native magic users. They'll organize sign-ups for a voluntary city-sponsored trip to 'Eastern Europe' in August. A lot of parents with elementary aged kids will want them out of their hair for a while by then anyway.

[x]Do two pacts
 
In regards to the Pact of Warding, could we use it to expose police and City Watch to the supernatural in a calm and controlled manner?

With regards to the prospective August trip, you'd probably want a bit more supervision than just Amy, and could send some along as part of that. More than that could probably be hashed out in time.

Besides that, what would it take to form a SWAT team or at least some equivalent for Sunnydale?

Right now, the SWAT team is effectively Buffy and her hammer, variously accompanied by Harmony or Willow as your other two real heavy hitters and probably supported by other Scoobies or named characters (even Andrew and Jonathan both have a degree of combat casting competence, as you saw earlier this episode.) Also, in situations where fire support seems necessary Buffy's popularity is high enough with the police that she could get volunteers.

Generally for high-leverage situations, you'll get more impact out of investment in major characters than institutions. Combat in this universe scales sharply. As an example, if you feel you could actually depend on Amy, she would be worth a lot in a fight.
 
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We managed to get rid of Wolfram and Hart, have a civil dialogue with the Rat King, and seemingly avoid too many missteps with Amy.
Just to nitpick, we didn't get rid of WRH. They are very much still here, and backing our competitor for mayor. Until we make it too expensive to keep operating in Sunnydale I expect Lindsey will stay hanging around finding problems and assassins and weird shit to put pressure on Buffy just the way he did in Angel. One random scheme he dug up in a couple weeks tops is not all he has in the tank. Lindsey ended his scene here with a declaration that he was not going away and sooner or later he would bully us into joining up.

That is the biggest upside of the theft option in my opinion, that it raises the price of operating in Sunnydale. It shows WRH that no, they can't just stick their claws in to our town and wiggle them around with impunity. If every time they try to mess with us we just deal with it and let it go then they will never stop, but if instead they lose a finger whenever they poke at us sooner or later they will run out of fingers or give it up as a bad job.
 
With regards to the prospective August trip, you'd probably want a bit more supervision than just Amy, and could send some along as part of that. More than that could probably be hashed out in time

So pretty much what I expected.


Generally for high-leverage situations, you'll get more impact out of investment in major characters than institutions. Combat in this universe scales sharply. As an example, if you feel you could actually depend on Amy, she would be worth a lot in a fight.

I'm all for investing in individual characters and trying to maximize their potential. Trying to get the powerful witch who has at least some investment in the survival of the city fighting for us seems like a good idea.

While having police forces is useful in a pinch and the City Watch helps deal with the low end threats through regular patrols, neither seems to be a dedicated combat force.

My thought is to have a more militant force which could provide second line support to our primary line up, people who are given more specific training and equipment than police whose job is law enforcement, and what I can only assume is a bunch of teenage volunteers, who without magic, shadow daemons, or Plot Armour, aren't going to be much in a straight up fight. Having an extra dozen people who can deal with a vampire horde in a professional manner while the A team kills the big bad, or engaging a vampire horde while the A team is fighting elsewhere could never hurt. Essentially my concern is that we won't have the sheer bodies necessary to deal with multiple medium to high intensity situations throughout Sunnydale at one time. Situations that would be outside of the ability of police or City Watch to deal with easily or without harm, but potentially too numerous to have the front line constantly going after. It doesn't matter if we have the five best fighters, if an enemy chooses to attack six places at once.

A few SWAT teams would be a good means of justifying having a paramilitary force which would help fill in the gaps that will inevitably show between the territory we've claimed, and our ability to not only effectively patrol, but act with sufficient force so as to impart the rule of law upon the supernatural community.

I suppose what it really comes down to is where you want the quest to fall on the spectrum between 'realism' and 'TV Show' logic. As this is a narrative quest there's a lot less focus on the wider perspective than you would get in something like an empire builder. I'm perfectly fine with the smaller more focused scope as it seems to mirror the pieces of the TV show closely in style, my concern is that if we drift towards the 'realism' end of the spectrum that narrowed focus will harm the long term potential of Mayor Buffy. In TV shows the plucky young heroine can sort of beat the odds with her two best pals and love interest of the moment. In reality groups win by stacking the deck as much as possible, trying to maximize benefits and mitigating potential harm; the problem being that we gave up all the benefits of being a small independent group, and gained all the problems of being a large governing body.


Just to nitpick, we didn't get rid of WRH. They are very much still here, and backing our competitor for mayor. Until we make it too expensive to keep operating in Sunnydale I expect Lindsey will stay hanging around finding problems and assassins and weird shit to put pressure on Buffy just the way he did in Angel. One random scheme he dug up in a couple weeks tops is not all he has in the tank. Lindsey ended his scene here with a declaration that he was not going away and sooner or later he would bully us into joining up.

I suppose I miss typed there, I meant that we removed them from being an immediate "what are we going to do" threat, to being something we can deal with slightly down the line.

You're totally right that we need to address them sooner rather than later, especially as they'll keep operating until we do something about them. My concern is that if we do something so overt as direct theft from them the rules will change, and fast. Right now they're content to sling stuff at us by way of third parties which benefits us, as we can subvert their attempts like with Amy and the Rat King. That's the reason I was questioning the idea getting SWAT teams, if we amp up the intensity of the competition between us and WR&H to quickly we won't have the sheer manpower to deal with everything they can throw at us. Until we can spend a little while consolidating our holdings, we should try and avoid poking the bear... too much.
 
A few SWAT teams would be a good means of justifying having a paramilitary force which would help fill in the gaps that will inevitably show between the territory we've claimed, and our ability to not only effectively patrol, but act with sufficient force so as to impart the rule of law upon the supernatural community.

I'm not saying that a high-end SWAT team wouldn't be useful, the problem is that what you build your high-end SWAT teams out of is not equipment and training so much as brutes and spellcasters (and these tend to be major or at least minor characters.) You can go a ways in this universe with equipment and training, but as we saw in S4 with the initiative there are definite limits on what you can realistically accomplish.

It's true that the average Initiative squad is more competent than a similar squad of nameless '99ers right now, but even if you take a handful of those '99ers and arm/train them up hard, you aren't going to get anything much better than an Initiative squad. When the Initiative tried to fight an actually serious threat like Adam, they were fodder that was killed en masse. Just slapping a label on some mundanes with big guns and calling them SWAT does not an elite unit in the Buffyverse make.

EDITS: I guess maybe I don't understand what you really mean by a SWAT team. Talk more about what you actually want to make a unit out of rather than what you want it to be able to do, maybe.

I should probably do some clarifying about the forces Buffy currently has more or less under her command. There are roughly twenty cops left out of an original population of almost forty; you lost a lot of them bailing after Wilkins died, more during the dragon incident, and even more after the Digby attack. The ones you do have left however, are generally more hardened and loyal than you might expect.

Along with everyone listed on the cast page, Xander has about fifteen extra unnamed '99ers and other SDCW walk-ons; almost all of them participated in the training exercise earlier this episode, and they have a range of levels of dedication and skill. With time, the more competent of these troops could definitely approach Initiative levels of competence, and with support from second tier spellcasters like Jonathan and Andrew they can surpass them.

The lone demon you have fighting for you right now is Harmony. You could recruit more eventually, but that can be tricky for a number of reasons, and Harmony is already very much an 'elite' fledgling in the same way Spike was in the 1880s.

EDIT2: Technically, the SDCW isn't a volunteer organization; it pays like a part-time job and you're hoping you can increase that once the budget is under control. In a lot of ways that's already heading towards being a private army.
 
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So what I actually think you are gunning for here already exists in town, it just hasn't shown up yet. You basically just described the Initiative. The big problem is going to be coopting them when Buffy is an obvious HST with an army. Hopefully we can do something to bring them around and provide another layer of combatants to provide time and cover for Buffy to deal with high end threats.


My concern is that if we do something so overt as direct theft from them the rules will change, and fast. Right now they're content to sling stuff at us by way of third parties which benefits us, as we can subvert their attempts like with Amy and the Rat King.
I think the thing to keep in mind here is that in his own canon Lindsey knew the firm wanted Angel alive, and still tried to murder the dude using Faith, and when that failed some random assassin that Faith butchered. He is both already willing to get deadly with his targets and also probably not up to the task of actually having Buffy killed.

I don't think he actually needs to change the rules of the game to start sending assassins and being more direct, it is in his playbook and just hasn't come up quite yet. IMO the actual change to the rules would be showing him that fucking around has consequences, and that if he reaches out he will look like an incompetent buffoon to his bosses due to lost resources.
 
[X]Do two pacts.
[X] All these Pacts are still too much trouble, better just to steal the bones and pay off the Rat King that way for another decade or so. The risks of getting caught red-handed by Wolfram and Hart are pretty massive, however.
[x] The Pact of Passage sounds like the safest option. Some mundane people around town might get a little spooked, and the extra expense will sting, but it shouldn't involve any risks that are too terrible. Maybe some confused shopkeepers, at worst.
I like doing both options. Assuming the skeleton isn't the only thing in wherever WRH stored it, we can steal a bit of other stuff too, maybe help with our cash issues. I'm not sure what else we can get from the Rat King, but that sounds interesting too
 
It's true that the average Initiative squad is more competent than a similar squad of nameless '99ers right now, but even if you take a handful of those '99ers and arm/train them up hard, you aren't going to get anything much better than an Initiative squad. When the Initiative tried to fight an actually serious threat like Adam, they were fodder that was killed en masse. Just slapping a label on some mundanes with big guns and calling them SWAT does not an elite unit in the Buffyverse make.

I guess maybe I don't understand what you really mean by a SWAT team. Talk more about what you actually want to make a unit out of rather than what you want it to be able to do, maybe.

I think this is a might be sourced from a fundamental miscommunication between how we view the situation in Sunnydale and perhaps my lack of . I see the way Buffy worked as being a sole individual in a reasonably large city only stopping a portion of the supernatural incidents on a daily basis. The problem with that being she now has to take on the responsibilities of Mayor Wilkins who would have been at the very least regulating the supernatural community to some degree. Right now we're running on reputation from what we did to the Mayor, no major enemy is going to confront us for a little while. The problem of manpower that I'm so concerned about won't appear in the short term though, it's about what will happen in the future when the previous Mayor's death isn't so fresh in people's minds. What happens when somebody gets the bright idea to attack the city with a group of a dozen or two individuals broken up into multiple small groups.

The idea is two fold, SWAT team(s) would act as a mixture of Quick Response Forces and sheer manpower. As QRF they are going to be equipped in a manner that the average officer on the street can't be, but in a much greater supply than the limited 'hero units' we have like Buffy.

As to what I mean by SWAT team; I mean literal Special Weapons and Tactics teams which are paramilitary police units specifically trained for combat situations. These would be police or '99ers given specific training and equipment that would be trained as typical SWAT and given a bit extra to deal with the supernatural side of Sunnydale. They would be both a passive and active means of dealing with large scale conflict —something that to my understanding is much more of a threat because of Buffy's position of Mayor, not just being a lone Slayer and her support staff/team. SWAT teams would be a means of active response in force to supernatural incidences in a quantity much greater than would otherwise be available. While simultaneously discouraging the idea of large scale combat because we would have the ability to match fire with more fire. Having smaller scale confrontations benefit us as it allows a greater concentration of limited resources to a lesser number of points.

In a perfect world SWAT teams shouldn't be going up against any of the major threats or things that can kill normal people without a second thought. They should be preforming a second line role for the heroes, dealing with the situations that the police either can't or won't deal with. Police aren't soldiers, they aren't typically trained or equipped to fight, they're meant to be Law Enforcement. These guys wouldn't be soldiers either, but they would be a lot more equipped for dealing with combat than some random officer on the street.

A brief explanation of their role would be something like this:
There is a major vampire in Town who decides to attack multiple important locations at one time.
The heroes are off confronting a major threat, the Vampire leader. The problem is that he's either strong enough to need a significant portion of them, or multiple skill sets are needed for problem solving
The Police and '99ers are running around dealing with smaller problems that are constantly cropping up because your not just busy patrolling parts of a city, your running it and need consistent wide spread presence throughout it.
The SWAT team(s) are specifically dedicated forces that can be assigned to the locations that the heroes can't be, to deal with threats like large groups of vampires, that the police and '99ers can't immediately deal with. So as the heroes go off to confront the Vampire leader, the SWAT teams go off and clear the other locations. The SWAT act as a force multiplier by allowing the 'Hero Units' to be concentrated towards a lesser number of targets rather than being dispersed throughout a number of lesser locations.


EDIT:
Your explanation of forces does help with understanding the situation quite a bit. Right now we have a problem of manpower. To my understanding Sunnydale is a reasonably sized city, so we're critically understaffed in regards to LEOs on both sides of the supernatural divide. As such I'm going to say it's probably a good idea to table the idea of increased specialization in an already short handed police force.

Also, just how bad are these guys work hours?




So what I actually think you are gunning for here already exists in town, it just hasn't shown up yet. You basically just described the Initiative. The big problem is going to be coopting them when Buffy is an obvious HST with an army. Hopefully we can do something to bring them around and provide another layer of combatants to provide time and cover for Buffy to deal with high end threats.


They are and they aren't. The reason why I'm using the term SWAT team is because it's something we could set up and have relative legal control over a dedicated combat force. The problem with the initiative is that we don't know about them yet and they're not under our control in any way. But yes, I would be all for co-opting them into our own forces if possible.
 
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As to what I mean by SWAT team; I mean literal Special Weapons and Tactics teams which are paramilitary police units specifically trained for combat situations. These would be police or '99ers given specific training and equipment that would be trained as typical SWAT and given a bit extra to deal with the supernatural side of Sunnydale.

This is more or less what the SDCW is already aiming to be, except with less focus on guns, at least for now, and with more on anti-vampire and anti-demon tactics. The SDCW may experience a bit of turnover in the near future due to the slapdash way recruiting had to be done, but Xander fully aims to make it into a professional paramilitary force. The SDCW currently does not pay well (I would estimate a salary of about $300 1999 dollars per week, but I might be wrong about that number), but this is more due to the terrible financial straights the city is in than any intent for it to be an amateurish organization. It is a force composed of mainly people who were volunteers, but it is not a volunteer force.

Similarly, while having automatic rifles or similar as part of the armory of the SDCW could certainly be a good tool for them, there are a lot of obstacles to this right now. First of all, they cost money, not just to buy, but to maintain, to supply with ammo, to train with. Second of all, they have a high level of bystander lethality, and the SDCW is currently extremely raw. Third of all, as mentioned earlier in thread, vampires not only lack vital organs but have poorly understood damage resistance against bullets. This trait is shared by most, though not all, demons of moderate or higher strength, and rampant aim-dodging is a well documented thing in the Buffyverse as well.

An automatic rifle at close range will still often do quite a bit of damage to most things, but the issues mentioned somewhat discourage their use as a primary weapon. Explosives of varying size tend to work more universally, but these run into even more issues of the first and second variety. It's likely that as the heavy crunches on time and money are solved that the SDCW will start rolling this type of stuff up as part of their toolbox, but as I said before, modern military equipment isn't the be-all end-all of even 2nd tier units in this universe unless their opposition is also expected to be human; obviously fighting other humans is not the aim of this force.

The large exercise we saw in E8.I was part of Xander's overall aim to improve the quality of his troops; remember that at this point in canon his soldier memories were still fairly strong, and they only diminished with disuse later on. Some of the current summer members of the SDCW will leave town come fall, but some will stay, and other walk-ons like Sam figure to be around for a while. If the budget crunch can be solved within a year (which is Xander's hope, even though all around him people keep spending money like water) a lot of them might be attracted to stay on in a permanent fashion with a salary more akin to that of a police officer, and the quality and variety of their equipment might be improved as well. Also remember they already have their own base at Crawford Street, and that Harmony is fighting under their banner whenever Buffy doesn't have her doing other specific jobs.

In the end, don't think of the SDCW as a mere 'city watch'. That's a fiction of a name meant to deceive the great uninitiated crowd into thinking they watch out for petty crime and do animal control. The SDCW is Buffy's private anti-supernatural army, it just currently suffers from the dual issues of not enough time and not enough money.

Note that Buffy is aware of all this, it just hasn't been especially prominent in the narrative until now. Related, this is why Xander has been pretty busy and only shows up once every few episodes instead of tagging along with Buffy all the time.
 
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[X] The Pact of Passage sounds like the safest option. Some mundane people around town might get a little spooked, and the extra expense will sting, but it shouldn't involve any risks that are too terrible. Maybe some confused shopkeepers, at worst.

[X] The Pact of Warding has a lot of downsides, but it could reap serious rewards long term in the form of more native magic users. They'll organize sign-ups for a voluntary city-sponsored trip to 'Eastern Europe' in August. A lot of parents with elementary aged kids will want them out of their hair for a while by then anyway.
 
Also, just how bad are these guys work hours?

I missed this. In general they are not good. The cops are pulling moderate overtime, and on top of that they're letting a lot of nonessentials slide. The average SDCW member isn't working too too hard (until you realize how little they get paid); maybe a 30 hour week with some additional time chilling at the watch house being a reserve. Patrol coverage of the city is nothing like complete, but a five man team can engage minion vampires fairly reliably and taking them out over time adds up.

Xander himself works pretty hard. He patrols more than the average SDCW member, spends a lot of time helping to train them, and then there are also random crisis moments like this one that he gets sucked into. Even so, he doesn't have any additional responsibilities at all and literally all his friends, including his girlfriend Anya, also work for Buffy, so this isn't as bad as it sounds. Xander could keep going like this forever and be pretty chill.

Jonathan and Andrew are your only new spellcasters and both are heavily specialized at the moment; Jonathan is somewhat more talented but also much more of a novice. Both of them spend a lot of time on research and go on occasional SDCW patrols, but not to the extent the other SDCW members do. They, Anya, and a lot of your other miscellaneous hanger-ons are in the same pattern of 30 hour-ish weeks and lots of reserve time on scant pay.

Nobody knows quite how much Willow has been working except for Willow. Especially if you include the hours she spends on the big summer program her parents are pushing her to do. Even more especially if you include her general research and experimentation time. The hope is that when she finishes CyberWillow (who is not operational as of right now, but will be within days) she will start sleeping a normal amount of hours again.
 
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