Successor (BTVS)

[X] Plan: Diplomacy's Overrated, Intrigue all the Way
-[X] You've talked to Amy and her terms and attitude are just unacceptable. Go for plan Willow, steal the skeleton from Wolfram and Hart

OK, so we clearly have something of a problem here. Four people are voting to ditch Amy and steal, and a total of eight people want to bargain with her in some way or another, but due to coordination problems which clearly are not going to be solved, the four are currently in the lead. Add to this that the vote has basically become a re-referendum on the vote that just happened, except this time due to how difficult plan voting is it only needs to win a plurality and not a majority, and I think this is just unacceptable; I declare the process that's going on to be insane troll logic.


To fix this, I am going to open voting again, for a new period, using Tasks instead of Plans, which I should've done the first time. The Tasks are all binary; each person can vote in each task. The first task is whether to deal with Amy at all, and if you choose not to it'll make all the other ones irrelevant. The other tasks are going to deal with the main Amy issues of the day, and also the texture of how you approach the situation.

It's unfortunate that this had to happen, and really I have no one to blame but myself for the situation we find ourselves in. In the future for votes like this, I think the most productive method would actually be an official brainstorming period followed by a Task vote, which is kind of what happened here but with extra steps.

[][AMY] Amy is too unreliable, annoying, and difficult to deal with. Leave her to rot in jail for now, abandon the idea of diplomacy, and attempt to steal the Allslyra skeleton from Wolfram and Hart.
[][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.

[][TRY] As long as Amy seems to put some effort into making the plan work, she won't be sent back to jail even if diplomacy goes nowhere. All kinds of things could go wrong outside her control, and making her more angry with you won't do any good.
[][TRY] Amy will go back to jail unless negotiations with the Rat King are productive. She's too likely to coast by or even actively sabotage things if she doesn't have a strong incentive to make it work.

[][EXILE] Amy represents to much of a threat to the Sunnydale, and will be exiled at the conclusion of the adventure even if she meets whatever expectations Buffy has set up for her.
[][EXILE] While she's dangerous, having Amy around is also useful, as proven by this very situation. She's talking a big game now but Buffy thinks she can keep her under control, and if she's allowed to stay she might cooperate more helpfully.

[][APPROACH] Amy is selfish and basically unredeemable, but she can be motivated by threats of violence and consequences. Buffy will be confrontational in negotiations and play on Amy's fears to get her to do what she wants.
[][APPROACH] Amy can be redeemed, and she cares about her father. Buffy will calm the angry influence of some of her friends and appeal to Amy's hopes and emotions, looking to smooth over their differences and approach things professionally.

Voting will be kept open for an extra full day beyond the usual.

[X][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.
[X][TRY] As long as Amy seems to put some effort into making the plan work, she won't be sent back to jail even if diplomacy goes nowhere. All kinds of things could go wrong outside her control, and making her more angry with you won't do any good.
[X][EXILE] Amy represents to much of a threat to the Sunnydale, and will be exiled at the conclusion of the adventure even if she meets whatever expectations Buffy has set up for her.
[X][APPROACH] Amy is selfish and basically unredeemable, but she can be motivated by threats of violence and consequences. Buffy will be confrontational in negotiations and play on Amy's fears to get her to do what she wants.

[X][AMY] Amy is too unreliable, annoying, and difficult to deal with. Leave her to rot in jail for now, abandon the idea of diplomacy, and attempt to steal the Allslyra skeleton from Wolfram and Hart.

[X][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.
[X][TRY] Amy will go back to jail unless negotiations with the Rat King are productive. She's too likely to coast by or even actively sabotage things if she doesn't have a strong incentive to make it work.
[X][EXILE] While she's dangerous, having Amy around is also useful, as proven by this very situation. She's talking a big game now but Buffy thinks she can keep her under control, and if she's allowed to stay she might cooperate more helpfully.
[X][APPROACH] Amy can be redeemed, and she cares about her father. Buffy will calm the angry influence of some of her friends and appeal to Amy's hopes and emotions, looking to smooth over their differences and approach things professionally.

[X][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.
[X][TRY] As long as Amy seems to put some effort into making the plan work, she won't be sent back to jail even if diplomacy goes nowhere. All kinds of things could go wrong outside her control, and making her more angry with you won't do any good.
[X][EXILE] Amy represents to much of a threat to the Sunnydale, and will be exiled at the conclusion of the adventure even if she meets whatever expectations Buffy has set up for her.
[X][APPROACH] Amy is selfish and basically unredeemable, but she can be motivated by threats of violence and consequences. Buffy will be confrontational in negotiations and play on Amy's fears to get her to do what she wants.

[x][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.


[x][TRY] Amy will go back to jail unless negotiations with the Rat King are productive. She's too likely to coast by or even actively sabotage things if she doesn't have a strong incentive to make it work.


[x][EXILE] While she's dangerous, having Amy around is also useful, as proven by this very situation. She's talking a big game now but Buffy thinks she can keep her under control, and if she's allowed to stay she might cooperate more helpfully.


[x][APPROACH] Amy can be redeemed, and she cares about her father. Buffy will calm the angry influence of some of her friends and appeal to Amy's hopes and emotions, looking to smooth over their differences and approach things professionally.

Ok I think we should keep Amy around. She is a powerful witch and I have the feeling if we exile her or keep her in jail she will come back as the big bad.

Nurgle said:

Ok I think we should keep Amy around. She is a powerful witch and I have the feeling if we exile her or keep her in jail she will come back as the big bad.

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Personally I think if we keep her around she is sure to join a big bad. It took her about a year of being left alone in canon to start tossing life ruining curses at people for vengeance.

@DeAnno I like the change in methodology here, plan votes when there aren't a bunch of people voting can get messy.

[x][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.
[x][TRY] As long as Amy seems to put some effort into making the plan work, she won't be sent back to jail even if diplomacy goes nowhere. All kinds of things could go wrong outside her control, and making her more angry with you won't do any good.
[x][EXILE] While she's dangerous, having Amy around is also useful, as proven by this very situation. She's talking a big game now but Buffy thinks she can keep her under control, and if she's allowed to stay she might cooperate more helpfully.
[x][APPROACH] Amy is selfish and basically unredeemable, but she can be motivated by threats of violence and consequences. Buffy will be confrontational in negotiations and play on Amy's fears to get her to do what she wants.

I am willing to put the three-strikes law to the test, and she can consider herself at two.

[X][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.
[X][TRY] As long as Amy seems to put some effort into making the plan work, she won't be sent back to jail even if diplomacy goes nowhere. All kinds of things could go wrong outside her control, and making her more angry with you won't do any good.
[X][EXILE] While she's dangerous, having Amy around is also useful, as proven by this very situation. She's talking a big game now but Buffy thinks she can keep her under control, and if she's allowed to stay she might cooperate more helpfully.
[X][APPROACH] Amy can be redeemed, and she cares about her father. Buffy will calm the angry influence of some of her friends and appeal to Amy's hopes and emotions, looking to smooth over their differences and approach things professionally.

[X][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.
[X][TRY] Amy will go back to jail unless negotiations with the Rat King are productive. She's too likely to coast by or even actively sabotage things if she doesn't have a strong incentive to make it work.
[X][EXILE] While she's dangerous, having Amy around is also useful, as proven by this very situation. She's talking a big game now but Buffy thinks she can keep her under control, and if she's allowed to stay she might cooperate more helpfully.
[X][APPROACH] Amy can be redeemed, and she cares about her father. Buffy will calm the angry influence of some of her friends and appeal to Amy's hopes and emotions, looking to smooth over their differences and approach things professionally.

[x][AMY] Amy is too unreliable, annoying, and difficult to deal with. Leave her to rot in jail for now, abandon the idea of diplomacy, and attempt to steal the Allslyra skeleton from Wolfram and Hart.
[x][TRY] Amy will go back to jail unless negotiations with the Rat King are productive. She's too likely to coast by or even actively sabotage things if she doesn't have a strong incentive to make it work.
[x][EXILE] Amy represents to much of a threat to the Sunnydale, and will be exiled at the conclusion of the adventure even if she meets whatever expectations Buffy has set up for her.
[x][APPROACH] Amy is selfish and basically unredeemable, but she can be motivated by threats of violence and consequences. Buffy will be confrontational in negotiations and play on Amy's fears to get her to do what she wants.

Lost Egos said:

[x][AMY] Amy is too unreliable, annoying, and difficult to deal with. Leave her to rot in jail for now, abandon the idea of diplomacy, and attempt to steal the Allslyra skeleton from Wolfram and Hart.
[x][TRY] Amy will go back to jail unless negotiations with the Rat King are productive. She's too likely to coast by or even actively sabotage things if she doesn't have a strong incentive to make it work.
[x][EXILE] Amy represents to much of a threat to the Sunnydale, and will be exiled at the conclusion of the adventure even if she meets whatever expectations Buffy has set up for her.
[x][APPROACH] Amy is selfish and basically unredeemable, but she can be motivated by threats of violence and consequences. Buffy will be confrontational in negotiations and play on Amy's fears to get her to do what she wants.

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So not only are you voting to not bother with Amy at all, you're specifically voting in such a way that if we do work with her, it utterly sabotages it?

Godwinson said:

So not only are you voting to not bother with Amy at all, you're specifically voting in such a way that if we do work with her, it utterly sabotages it?

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Amy is a bad faith actor don't try to vote shame me or put words in my mouth I was clear in my reasoning in prior posts and we are not voting by plan I voted to not extend trust to her in every option so as to minimize risk.

Lost Egos said:

[] Professional Plans
Are not going to work Amy doesn't care about the greater good and can't be trusted not to defect in any prisoners dilemma.

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She is going to act against us at any opportunity she thinks she can get away with and does not have an accurate grasp of her situation she is going betray even when her chances aren't good.

Try= I'm of two minds on this, it's best to have her locked up and she's more likely to try if coerced. Where as if she does honestly try and fails through no fault of her own it is still best to have her locked up. She's lied to the gang successfully before and they are biased against her even if they succeed at negotiations the temptation and justification to get back at Amy is still there to be biased and believe she tried to sabotaged their efforts and change the deal.
Exile = she isn't going to keep her nose clean or to any rules or agreements.
Professionalism = perceived weakness and greater chance of betrayal

[X][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.
[X][TRY] Amy will go back to jail unless negotiations with the Rat King are productive. She's too likely to coast by or even actively sabotage things if she doesn't have a strong incentive to make it work.
[X][EXILE] While she's dangerous, having Amy around is also useful, as proven by this very situation. She's talking a big game now but Buffy thinks she can keep her under control, and if she's allowed to stay she might cooperate more helpfully.
[X][APPROACH] Amy can be redeemed, and she cares about her father. Buffy will calm the angry influence of some of her friends and appeal to Amy's hopes and emotions, looking to smooth over their differences and approach things professionally.

[X][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.
[X][TRY] As long as Amy seems to put some effort into making the plan work, she won't be sent back to jail even if diplomacy goes nowhere. All kinds of things could go wrong outside her control, and making her more angry with you won't do any good.
[X][EXILE] Amy represents to much of a threat to the Sunnydale, and will be exiled at the conclusion of the adventure even if she meets whatever expectations Buffy has set up for her.
[X][APPROACH] Amy can be redeemed, and she cares about her father. Buffy will calm the angry influence of some of her friends and appeal to Amy's hopes and emotions, looking to smooth over their differences and approach things professionally.

[X][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.
[X][TRY] As long as Amy seems to put some effort into making the plan work, she won't be sent back to jail even if diplomacy goes nowhere. All kinds of things could go wrong outside her control, and making her more angry with you won't do any good.
[X][EXILE] Amy represents to much of a threat to the Sunnydale, and will be exiled at the conclusion of the adventure even if she meets whatever expectations Buffy has set up for her.
[X][APPROACH] Amy is selfish and basically unredeemable, but she can be motivated by threats of violence and consequences. Buffy will be confrontational in negotiations and play on Amy's fears to get her to do what she wants.

Hmm. This brings to question how her previous owners got her loyalty. Drugs and drug money?

[X][AMY] Despite Willow's protests, Buffy still wants to deal with Amy and use her to talk to the Rat King. Diplomacy's worth a chance.
[x][TRY] Amy will go back to jail unless negotiations with the Rat King are productive. She's too likely to coast by or even actively sabotage things if she doesn't have a strong incentive to make it work.
[X][EXILE] While she's dangerous, having Amy around is also useful, as proven by this very situation. She's talking a big game now but Buffy thinks she can keep her under control, and if she's allowed to stay she might cooperate more helpfully.
[X][APPROACH] Amy is selfish and basically unredeemable, but she can be motivated by threats of violence and consequences. Buffy will be confrontational in negotiations and play on Amy's fears to get her to do what she wants.

Ok this looks good.
I'm willing to work with Amy.
Amy is selfish, without a clear reason why she couldn't say; "Eeeh, I tried, tee~ hee~;" she has no reason to comply. So leaving the only option for her freedom to be when she scams over the rat king is to our benefit.
Exiling her regardless is not good for her co operation. If she gets what she wants from us she is more likely to work with us. And knows we can be trusted. And if she has a way to tell our truthfulness, well more likely for her to go along with the request.
The only reason why Amy used his parent is cause she knows how we reacted to our own. I would never believe her to actually care for her dad. And if she does that's how she ought be motivated. If she wants to escape our threats the path of least resistance is to just leave Sunnydale with her pops.

Assuming she stays she can be employed, and knowing that fucking with us screws her over doubly she should in theory be motivated to cross those who come to her to cross us instead, assuming we pay her for double crosses and stuff.

Edifier said:

Hmm. This brings to question how her previous owners got her loyalty. Drugs and drug money?

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Probably magic drugs. She was running around enchanting people and using mind/emotion control stuff before she went rat. Keeping her on side before couldn't have been that hard by just indulging her impulses.

I really love the new vote! It makes making up my mind on what to do SO MUCH easier and clearer.

[x][AMY] Amy is too unreliable, annoying, and difficult to deal with. Leave her to rot in jail for now, abandon the idea of diplomacy, and attempt to steal the Allslyra skeleton from Wolfram and Hart.
[x][TRY] Amy will go back to jail unless negotiations with the Rat King are productive. She's too likely to coast by or even actively sabotage things if she doesn't have a strong incentive to make it work.
[x][EXILE] Amy represents to much of a threat to the Sunnydale, and will be exiled at the conclusion of the adventure even if she meets whatever expectations Buffy has set up for her.
[x][APPROACH] Amy is selfish and basically unredeemable, but she can be motivated by threats of violence and consequences. Buffy will be confrontational in negotiations and play on Amy's fears to get her to do what she wants.

OK, this is going much better. 12 hour warning for real this time.

In cases like approach where it's a spectrum, a close result will tend to make the approach less one-sided, though there will still be a strong direction to it. If approach ends in a tie it'll split the difference in a more fundamental fashion. If Try or Exile are looking tied, I'll probably leave the vote open for a bit longer trying to let it break naturally, since those are a bit harder to compromise on (though you can still be more or less extreme about how you present them.)

[x][AMY] Amy is too unreliable, annoying, and difficult to deal with. Leave her to rot in jail for now, abandon the idea of diplomacy, and attempt to steal the Allslyra skeleton from Wolfram and Hart.
[x][TRY] Amy will go back to jail unless negotiations with the Rat King are productive. She's too likely to coast by or even actively sabotage things if she doesn't have a strong incentive to make it work.
[x][EXILE] Amy represents to much of a threat to the Sunnydale, and will be exiled at the conclusion of the adventure even if she meets whatever expectations Buffy has set up for her.
[x][APPROACH] Amy is selfish and basically unredeemable, but she can be motivated by threats of violence and consequences. Buffy will be confrontational in negotiations and play on Amy's fears to get her to do what she wants.

Exile is tied. Next new person to vote or person to swap will decide EXILE in sudden death mode. All other votes are locked.

I'll probably just determine it randomly if too much time passes though.

[X][EXILE] While she's dangerous, having Amy around is also useful, as proven by this very situation. She's talking a big game now but Buffy thinks she can keep her under control, and if she's allowed to stay she might cooperate more helpfully.