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Bright Flames, Dark Shadows: My Hero Academia

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Magery said:
Naginata have many benefits to them. For one, the female samurai warrior aesthetic. For two, the female samurai warrior aesthetic. For three, swords are common and spears are overpowered, especially because of the female samurai warrior aesthetic.
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You sir make a compelling argument.
EDIT: unfortunately, WoG forces that idea to take a backseat for now.

[X] Built for Offense
[X] Unarmed
 
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[X] Built for Endurance
[X] Our Hair Ribbon

I like the idea being of an ice version of Kirishima and Tetsutetsu. Gonna need to make that ice harder.
 
Erebeal said:
Alright, let's look at this.
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If you're going to pick apart my argument on specific points rather than address it holistically, please don't forget to include the specific points that have already engaged with your objections beforehand. For instance, when you dismiss the argument against Hollywood knockouts as evidence against the naginata, refer to the section literally above it that has pointed out you can use a naginata for blunt trauma. (It's almost like I addressed the broad obvious case first—Hollywood knockouts being a thing in shounen settings—and then moved on to address the specific case where they're not afterward!)

On the subject of intimidation, please refer to the section of my argument where I expanded on the themes we would or could have as a fighter using a naginata. Specifically, where I noted "It makes us a symbol that other heroes can look up to and aspire to be; a much better symbol than Endeavour, because we will be calm where he is aggressive and cool where he is violent." Endeavour's intimidation is active. It's throwing around huge gouts of flame and being aggressive and in-your-face. Ours would be nothing like that—it would be softer, subtler, more gentle. Please don't invent calls to absurdity—like dismembering—when what I actually said was, and I quote, "pointing a whopping great spear at you with a shiny blade on the end" in a comparison to the implied threat of pointing a staff at somebody. We don't have to threaten to stab people with an edged weapon for people to realise we have an edged weapon, and in fact shouldn't. That would be crass. Like Endeavour. It should just loom in the background like our shadow without ever being drawn direct attention to.

Furthermore, the idea that heroes are not supposed to be at all intimidating seems foolish. Of course, I grant you never actually said this, but I will still take the time to quickly refute the idea in general. Law enforcement, at least theoretically, is supposed to be intimidating to criminals and would-be criminals. Ideally, the idea of the police—or a hero—stops significantly more crime than the actual police or hero. Now consider, for example, All Might. You can't tell me All Might doesn't intimidate villains. Of course he does. The difference is that All Might doesn't intimidate his friends or the people around him. We are still trying to become a good hero, so that's the sort of intimidation we should strive for—which Endeavour distinctly does not—and it's not somehow invalidated because we carry an edged weapon so long as we, you know, don't actually start cutting people up.

Moving back to your counter-argument, don't be silly. Whether we are skilled with our ribbon or not does in no way invalidate my fundamental point, which was we will never be as skilled with any of the weapons we turn it into than if we focused on one of them. We can have years of experience playing with our ribbon and while we may be very good at shifting it quickly from one weapon to another we still won't be very good at using those weapons—and given, most of the time, the naginata will be the superior weapon form to be using because of how many advantages it has over basically everything except somebody else using a polearm or fighting us from thirty metres away, why don't we just stick to being actually good with a naginata?

It being a reasonable argument in favour of unarmed is irrelevant, because why be good at unarmed when we could be good with a naginata? If we wish to argue from the perspective of what makes us the most efficient in combat, or what's the most efficient thing to learn for combat, there is no argument because of all the presented options the naginata automatically wins :V

And speaking of unarmed, I said it once and I'll say it again: don't be silly. You can extend that argument up to "Endeavour uses his Quirk, so we can't use our Quirk" or "Endeavour breathes, so we can't breathe". On the other hand, taking up a weapon where Endeavour does not is a symbolic rejection that makes us meaningfully distinct from him without sacrificing anything inane for the sake of our pride. Especially if that weapon is the sort of weapon that absolutely fucks over people who try to fight it unarmed: like, say, a naginata.

(I will allow that this particular point can be extended to a whole variety of weapons, the dreaded ribbon included—which is why I have a whole lot of other arguments against that whole variety of weapons as well).

Carrying multiple ribbons is a reasonable solution to only being able to use them to tie up one person at a time, yes. I concede that.

However, if you suggest that the rest of the arguments not addressed above better support the ribbon or unarmed, please don't claim this and then not bother to ever actually explain how. If you disagree with my points, by all means feel free! Just, uh, do it by actually offering refutations rather than broadly claiming something with no evidence or argumentation to back it up :V

For instance!

1337Procrast said:
In MHA a character is meant to fight in a way that emphasises their quirk.

Like how Stain wields lots of bladed weapons to help him get the blood for his quirk or how Snipe uses a gun because he can sontrol where bullets go.
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This is what an actual refutation of, for example, my aesthetic-based points looks like, as opposed to "oh yeah everything else you said supports ribbon or unarmed but I'm not going to explain why".

I disagree with it, as fighting with a naginata does emphasise our quirk, because it will make people who have to fight us want to get close to us (since that's the commonly-accepted wisdom on how to beat somebody with a reach weapon), and then they will quickly run into the problem that our quirk is close-ranged and Admiral Ackbar starts screaming in their ears.

But it does at least offer a reasonable objection.
 
Magery said:
If you're going to pick apart my argument on specific points rather than address it holistically, please don't forget to include the specific points that have already engaged with your objections beforehand. For instance, when you dismiss the argument against Hollywood knockouts as evidence against the naginata, refer to the section literally above it that has pointed out you can use a naginata for blunt trauma. (It's almost like I addressed the broad obvious case first—Hollywood knockouts being a thing in shounen settings—and then moved on to address the specific case where they're not afterward!)
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That's, uh, not what you said:
Magery said:
More importantly, for two, if we may only take down people non-lethally, we can't hit them at all. Hollywood knockouts are not a thing, and I'm sure we all know it. Whether you're using a staff or a tonfa or the back of your hand, if you hit someone hard enough to put them down more than momentarily, you have hit them hard enough to seriously hurt them. A blade is actually better for this—not because you can stab someone any more safely than you can hit them, but because people are afraid of being stabbed. If someone is pointing a whopping great spear at you with a shiny blade on the end, you are more likely to put your hands up and do what they say than if they're pointing a staff at you instead. Especially if you think you're tough and can take a few beatings but are still aware you are a small fleshy human whose toughness offers no defence against cold steel.
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What you said here is to attack the idea of fighting people non-lethally and argue that threatening people with sharp objects is better than hitting them. You completely ignored how things work in the shonen setting.

Would you rather I use "stabbings" rather than "dismemberment"? I would continue to argue that threatening people with sharp weapons is not particularly becoming of a hero. It might be sophistry to some degree, but the use of tools such as staves to avoid the appearance of bloodshed is something with a strong history, and the same principles apply to a hero here. There is symbolic value in rejecting such weapons and the threat of such bloody violence.

Like, yes, intimidation. But there are degrees here and I would suggest that the implicit threat produced by sharp objects is starting to cross those lines (and if you intend to never ever cut people then, uh, maybe don't carry around edged weapons?). It's the difference between the threat of "I'm a hero and I'm going to kick your ass" and "I'm going to stab/kill you" - which is what the implicit threat of pointing a spear at someone is and why it's more threatening.

Certainly "Endeavor threw a fire spear at someone once therefore we shouldn't use spears" is a silly argument. But I don't think "Endeavor occasionally punches people therefore we shouldn't punch people" is much better. If Endeavor was rejecting weapons out of some kind of martial arts philosophical statement or martial arts like firebending were a big part of his image then that would be one thing. However, really it's just that weapons have no synergy with setting people on fire and he mostly just throws fire at people. For similar reasons, the vast majority of heroes do not use weapons either, so this is hardly something specific to Endeavor.

I don't disagree that the ribbon would be far more difficult a weapon to master and make use of. However, it is actually a use of our power and that makes it relevant to our character design. Random naginata is not. IF we wanted naginata we should have gotten powers that would have actually been relevant to that.

Thus, if the ribbon is to complicated to use, then the logical place to go is for the simplest option which is the direct unarmed use of our powers like god intended. This is both simple, and works for the character design.

The naginata does not emphasise our quirk anymore than it would on "turn hard" guy or "turn metal" guy. You emphasise your quirk by getting in there and using it - not by being all "you thought I was naginata hero but surprise! I'm actually also ice armor hero!". The random weapon just distracts and dilutes the character concept. I mean, put it this way: what emphasises the power more as part of the character? Actually using our power 100% of the time to kick ass? Or hitting people with a naginata 80% of the time and occasionally going "surprise!"?
 
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I finished this update late at night and immediately went to sleep. To clarify, just because you pick a weapon here doesn't mean you magically become experienced in using it. The bulk of your fighting experience has been summed up as "some grappling" and "judo" and "I didn't sneak in Nii-san's closet to find his recordings of late-night female wrestlers". That said, you're 15, you can learn so if you really like a weapon, Sunbreaker is happy to teach you not to get yourself killed with it.
 
VereorNox said:
I finished this update late at night and immediately went to sleep. To clarify, just because you pick a weapon here doesn't mean you magically become experienced in using it. The bulk of your fighting experience has been summed up as "some grappling" and "judo" and "I didn't sneak in Nii-san's closet to find his recordings of late-night female wrestlers". That said, you're 15, you can learn so if you really like a weapon, Sunbreaker is happy to teach you not to get yourself killed with it.
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Well, that's awkward.

[X] Built for Counters
[X] Unarmed
 
On the one hand, my reasoning remains unchanged:
Kinruush said:
Ignoring all other arguments, swinging around a naginata is good exercise. Build those muscles.
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But on the other hand:
VereorNox said:
The bulk of your fighting experience has been summed up as "some grappling" and "judo" and "I didn't sneak in Nii-san's closet to find his recordings of late-night female wrestlers".
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Imitating late-night female wrestlers as part of our style sounds hilarious. I'll need to think about this.
 
Yeah, ok. So given that one of our goals right now is to actually win a fight, and what we have right now is judo training and a deep interest in late-night female wrestlers we should probably go with what we actually know.

Experimenting with our powers and possible weapon choices is probably something to explore later in training. You know, if we haven't fallen in love with Rin's wrestling moves. Which sound hilarious. And probably would synergise great with her ice powers or something.

[X] Built for Counters
[X] Unarmed
 
Anyway, with this a good argument can be made for Endurance.

To quote Kengan Asura: "Doesn't matter if it's a blunt weapon, a blade, or a bomb. Pro wrestlers have the responsibility to take all attacks head-on and overcome them!"

Let Rin live her dreams!
 
Welp, that's that, then. If we have no experience with any weapons, then it's better not to have any.

[X] Built for Counters
[X] Unarmed
 
[X] Built for Counters
[X] Our Hair Ribbon

Honestly, I think whip/flail style weapons are our best bet, due to how they extend the contact limitation of our quirk. When we actually end up getting support items, something like a extending/retracting whip that can double as a grappling hook would be my ideal.

Not only would this extend the range of applicability of our quirk, but it also serves to alleviate some of the mobility issues that Rin might face, in being able to pull ourselves around using the grapple portion.

A hair ribbon is pretty unobtrusive, and doesn't really stop us from using unarmed combat if it comes down to it, but also opens up other options for how the fight might progress.
 
[X] Built for Counters
[X] Unarmed

I went back and forth, but the late-night wrestling thing is just too great. I know she could use something else here and still show off her sick wrestling moves, but I just think it's funnier if she doesn't.
 
[X] Built for Counters
[X] Unarmed

Changing my vote again. Rin's goal is to win this fight. Trying to use a weapon she has no experience in will not end with victory most likely. We can always have her learn how to use a weapon later.
 
[X] Built for Offense
[X] Staff

I think a staff (maybe collapsible) would actually be an interesting weapon. It's a versatile and potentially non-lethal option, while at the same time being something that Rin's Quirk can work with. If she needs to get lethal, she can just freeze an ice spearpoint or ax head (or even a blade :O) to the end. Depending on the precise details of how her Quirk works, she could also maybe use it to extend her manipulation range by covering it with ice.

Also, the best defense is a good offense.
 
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