[x] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
Sometimes the system is too rotten to keep. Break away, build a better world. Hubris is a coward's word.
I'm still reading through the Quest and catching up, really liking it, but I thought I'd throw down a vote whilst I do.
We absolutely can and should do better than the Imperium, so much so that future generations look back on it as a failure, a reflection of humanity's fear and desperate regression towards the comforting old idols of ignorance and oppression in the face of the encroaching night. But to do that, there need to be future generations. I think that means that to some extent we need to work with the Imperium as we dismantle and reform it. Like it or not, it is the most plausible vehicle the overwhelming majority of humanity has for their collective defence at present or for the foreseeable future. For this reason, I lean towards Philosophy, as I think it will make it much easier to coopt and conquer the institutions of the Imperium.
@Cetashwayo brings up the example of the Hussite Wars and that's actually a pretty perfect summation of the best case scenario for Defiance, not surprisingly since he's pretty apt with the historical references. A group of religious schismatics, led by a brilliant leader, utilising revolutionary new military tactics and advanced technology, with a strong power base in a fairly small region, decide "fuck this", beat the shit out of a million successive crusades from the entirety of the rest of Christendom, and end up basically winning outright, getting their monarch onto the throne and their religious objection put into official liturgy.* That's a pretty strong model to follow, and one can easily see how it is applicable to our situation.
The only issue is that if we try it right now, in the current situation, we're talking about the deaths of billions, probably trillions. Humanity right now, and forget the Imperium, humanity, cannot afford another Apostasy or Great Heresy. The Tyranid threat, the resurgence of the Necrontyr, Black Crusades that are larger than anything seen in millennia, the preponderance of ever bigger Ork Waaghs; any one of these on their own would be a grave threat that could threaten to overcome humanity. Put together, a large scale civil war dividing humanity's strength right now would leave most people -not the High Lords on Terra, not the Inquisitors, Cardinals or Space Marines guarded in their fortresses, but the normal, innocent people- as nothing more than lambs for the cosmic slaughter.
Because we really don't like their leaders, and some of the awful things their leaders have done, we're condemning them to die, alone and frightened.
At best, you could call this an incredibly cold blooded and brutal yet pragmatic calculation. Maybe the Imperium is a rusty old tanker, and turning it at this point is simply too difficult. A much smaller, agile, better organised polity, led by a leader with godlike power and using advanced recovered technologies, is better able to meet the rising threats. Carving a power base from the corpse of the Imperium whilst using its dying husk as a strategic buffer, we can then launch a second Great Crusade when the time is right. But I'm not necessarily convinced this is actually workable, that without all the assembled military might of humanity, we will be able to defeat all the threats arising at once. I'm not certain that we can fight off several successively larger crusades from the rest of the Imperium, then conquer every other threat that the Imperium itself has not been able to vanquish. It's a gamble at best.
It's also just callous, to my mind. We're condemning most of the people of the Imperium, our flock, the innocent masses whose serfdom and sufferings have moved us so, to terrible death or slavery, their Imperial Fleet and Guard weakened by civil war. And yes, that includes the mutants and rogue psykers. Probably moreso given how Chaos likes to make a beeline for them. I think we can do better than that. I think we should aspire to do better than that.
Maybe a soldier would be heardhearted enough to abandon most of humanity to try and save the species, but we didn't choose to be a solider. We are the shepherd.
Our flock needs us.
[X] Philosophy
*(Yeah the Taborites didn't make out so well but honestly fuck the Taborites. Dudes had absolutely no chill.)
Adhoc vote count started by Crilltic on Oct 3, 2018 at 11:43 AM, finished with 1627 posts and 92 votes.
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
[X] Revelation. Present your new philosophy as a direct command from the Emperor himself. This is the easiest explanation for the average citizen to accept, but it is also self-contained; any change will be focused and limited to the precise topics of the 'vision', for better or worse.
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
You kinda have to do at least some burning to save the good parts.
I mean, it's like saying "we should make Third Reich democratic country, not burn it". Like. You can't. You have to kill the rotten edifice of oppression like this to do something better. Some things cannot be reformed because they are fractally rotten.
And, wrt IoM in particular, comparison with Third Reich is sorta apt, fascism and all.
Regarding the earlier question about the scale of Bureaucracy charms and such:
Solar Bureaucracy makes you an excellent leader. There is no direct cap on the size of the organization you can improve, but you have to be in charge of it, or at the very least a direct consultant and advisor to the person in charge. You could run a branch office of a company brilliantly while being a local manager, but if you wanted to overhaul the practices of the company at large you'd need to get yourself appointed CEO.
In the context of the Imperium, this poses an interesting challenge, mostly because the Imperium is deliberately set up to prevent the accumulation of power in the hands of a single individual. The only rank above Cardinal is Ecclesiarch, which requires you to get yourself elected one of the High Lords of Terra; something of a long-term goal, to say the least. Otherwise your influence and authority is restricted to your direct diocese - for Ignatius, this means Sanguis and theoretically several other worlds in the sub-sector, most of which are effectively self-governing. He can exert a bunch of influence on other religious districts with a bit of work, but reforming the secular institutions of even the local sector requires secular authority, and that causes Vandire-related PTSD in large sections of the Imperium.
Don't worry so much about the difficulties posed by astropathic coordination, though. You're a demigod - your commands aren't getting distorted like that short of active interference from a major warp power.
@Admiral Skippy , but the thing is, comparison with Hussite Wars also follows in that we do not have to kill every other human army to win.
Like, we are not going to be launching a crusade against Imperium - we will probably be offered an option, but I imagine we will also have an option to first fix our own shit and do a more diplomatic approach to swaying people.
They can and will crusade against us, yes, but nobody forces them to and I assume that, if threatened with another Black Crusade or somesuch, they will prioritize such over us, especially if we are not aggressively expanding into Imperium.
So it will probably be less of a second Horus Heresy and more of, hm, a Reformation in progress? Given that IoM is HRE in space and all.
Hopefully without equivalent of 30 years war, but if such happens, it can happen just as well via Philosophy route too. It's not like, say, Luther was raging to have a go at Pope or something.
It's not about "dramatically", it's about making it happen at all. Ecclesiarchy can stonewall us forever if they want to, as long as we limit debate to a matter of academic dispute as is with Philosophy.
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
Regarding the earlier question about the scale of Bureaucracy charms and such:
Solar Bureaucracy makes you an excellent leader. There is no direct cap on the size of the organization you can improve, but you have to be in charge of it, or at the very least a direct consultant and advisor to the person in charge. You could run a branch office of a company brilliantly while being a local manager, but if you wanted to overhaul the practices of the company at large you'd need to get yourself appointed CEO.
In the context of the Imperium, this poses an interesting challenge, mostly because the Imperium is deliberately set up to prevent the accumulation of power in the hands of a single individual. The only rank above Cardinal is Ecclesiarch, which requires you to get yourself elected one of the High Lords of Terra; something of a long-term goal, to say the least. Otherwise your influence and authority is restricted to your direct diocese - for Ignatius, this means Sanguis and theoretically several other worlds in the sub-sector, most of which are effectively self-governing. He can exert a bunch of influence on other religious districts with a bit of work, but reforming the secular institutions of even the local sector requires secular authority, and that causes Vandire-related PTSD in large sections of the Imperium.
Don't worry so much about the difficulties posed by astropathic coordination, though. You're a demigod - your commands aren't getting distorted like that short of active interference from a major warp power.
This is worth paying attention to, because it means that if we want to seriously reform the Imperium beyond the Ecclesiarchy (and we do, if nothing else the Administratum needs a serious overhaul because like, those guys lose planets in rounding errors), our options are either "cause Vandire-related PTSD" or "don't reform", so again, we are going to end up functionally going Defiance sooner or later anyway.
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
This is worth paying attention to, because it means that if we want to seriously reform the Imperium beyond the Ecclesiarchy (and we do, if nothing else the Administratum needs a serious overhaul because like, those guys lose planets in rounding errors), our options are either "cause Vandire-related PTSD" or "don't reform", so again, we are going to end up functionally going Defiance sooner or later anyway.
We can cause Vandire related PTSD without also attacking them. It's an unfortunate implication, not a show-stopper, especially when we're a proven chosen one of the Emperor; if they're ignoring our status after we prove it to them, they're not going to be opposing us because they're worrying we're going to pervert the word of the emperor.
Regarding the earlier question about the scale of Bureaucracy charms and such:
Solar Bureaucracy makes you an excellent leader. There is no direct cap on the size of the organization you can improve, but you have to be in charge of it, or at the very least a direct consultant and advisor to the person in charge. You could run a branch office of a company brilliantly while being a local manager, but if you wanted to overhaul the practices of the company at large you'd need to get yourself appointed CEO.
In the context of the Imperium, this poses an interesting challenge, mostly because the Imperium is deliberately set up to prevent the accumulation of power in the hands of a single individual. The only rank above Cardinal is Ecclesiarch, which requires you to get yourself elected one of the High Lords of Terra; something of a long-term goal, to say the least. Otherwise your influence and authority is restricted to your direct diocese - for Ignatius, this means Sanguis and theoretically several other worlds in the sub-sector, most of which are effectively self-governing. He can exert a bunch of influence on other religious districts with a bit of work, but reforming the secular institutions of even the local sector requires secular authority, and that causes Vandire-related PTSD in large sections of the Imperium.
Don't worry so much about the difficulties posed by astropathic coordination, though. You're a demigod - your commands aren't getting distorted like that short of active interference from a major warp power.
Would being the spiritual advisor to the Sector Governor work as a way to reform the region? We don't hold direct authority, but a living saint and cardinal has plenty of soft power to make himself heard in the halls of power even if he doesn't have de jure authority.
We can cause Vandire related PTSD without also attacking them. It's an unfortunate implication, not a show-stopper, especially when we're a proven chosen one of the Emperor; if they're ignoring our status after we prove it to them, they're not going to be opposing us because they're worrying we're going to pervert the word of the emperor.
We do not even have to attack anyone. Like, thing is, nothing stops us from being Defiant and utterly Pacifist wrt IoM. Defiance only means we go more radical on our divergence, not how hostile we are.
It means IoM will be more militantly hostile to us, but that's something of another matter; plus, again, IoM can be murderously hostile against entirely loyal Saints, so it's not like being a good obedient boy will prevent bloodshed.
Adhoc vote count started by Sarpedon on Oct 3, 2018 at 11:52 AM, finished with 1631 posts and 93 votes.
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
[X] Revelation. Present your new philosophy as a direct command from the Emperor himself. This is the easiest explanation for the average citizen to accept, but it is also self-contained; any change will be focused and limited to the precise topics of the 'vision', for better or worse.
Like, you seem to be missing that the Imperium does not survive with the Imperium's resources. Prior to Guilliman's return, the Imperium was losing. It was a major element of the grimdark atmosphere that the Imperium was dying by inches, that each new catastrophe might be the straw that broke the camel's back, and a great part of the reason for that is the Imperium is riddled with tumourous inefficiencies and needless cruelties, which it embraces out of a misguided sense of necessity.
Not sure how dragging the rug from under the IoM is going to improve things. Yes the IoM was losing - it still lasted 10000 years and it took the 'nids arriving and a Black Crusade to truly push it to the brink.
They can and will crusade against us, yes, but nobody forces them to and I assume that, if threatened with another Black Crusade or somesuch, they will prioritize such over us, especially if we are not aggressively expanding into Imperium.
The IoM is big enough that it can have forces dealing with multiple major problems and still throw a Crusade our way. As for nobody forcing them - the IoM is very much ideologically and pragmatically against competing polities. Like Big E wasn't very hot on it either but for the IoM a sector seceding doesn't just mean less resources - it means there's a good chance said sector will become a bastion of heresy/new warp rift/some other aggressive problem.
The IoM are fascists but independent polities tend to go insane or dead very quickly.
This is worth paying attention to, because it means that if we want to seriously reform the Imperium beyond the Ecclesiarchy (and we do, if nothing else the Administratum needs a serious overhaul because like, those guys lose planets in rounding errors), our options are either "cause Vandire-related PTSD" or "don't reform", so again, we are going to end up functionally going Defiance sooner or later anyway.
Or we can convince the dozen other High Lords of the Imperium to be more reasonable. Considering that some of them are psykers and one is a Navigator it isn't necessarily an unsympathetic audience.
It's not about "dramatically", it's about making it happen at all. Ecclesiarchy can stonewall us forever if they want to, as long as we limit debate to a matter of academic dispute as is with Philosophy.
Thats a pretty nasty misrepresentation of philosophy there. Its not some mere academic dispute
We're building it, preaching it, putting new creeds into practice and they in turn have to undo our progress, not just stonewall...and its arguable that the limits of their stonewalling is going to be pretty similar to that experienced by the more easily justified censoring and silencing of Defiance.
Which ALSO limits what they can try, for fear of martyrdom triggered rebellions.
The risks here are different. Defiance is a race, to get the institutions sufficiently on our side to turn it to a more straightforward military campaign, but the risk is that undirected defiance and fury would tend strong to find someone to abuse and oppress. Thats how the Imperium got here to begin with.
Philosophy is challenging them in social influence while we build up personal assets and allies, such that when we actually bring about a confrontation they...probably want to try to kill us by throwing us at enemies of the Imperium, rather than by the Imperium ponderously maneuvering against us. The risk is frustration, progress will be incremental as they work to erode us and let us buy our own doom proving ourselves.
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
But if just one reform is adopted by the Imperium, massive numbers of lives will be saved. Philosophy involves constructing a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine. Even if the Ecclesiarchy manges to defend itself against the majority of the teachings of Ignatious, adopting just one will have major benefits for the population of the Imperium. Due to the Solar speciality in convincing people, I would expect a number of reforms will (slowly) be adopted.
If we declare war on the current Imperial Faith, that news will spread (relatively) rapidly to the nearby worlds and they will resist us. On the other hand, if a Cardinal (with support of the Sisters)(from a major Shrine world) announces new teachings, many priests will accept them (for all they know, this change is an official one supported by the Ecclesiarchy). We should use the grace period to spread our teachings as far as we can, not to declare the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the Emperor.
We will face public conflict with the Ecclesiarchy eventually, but delaying it will give us time to grow stronger. They are not really getting any more powerful, but we are. The more Solar charms learned, the more people converted to our faith, the stronger our side is. The stronger our side becomes, the more of our reforms the rest of the Imperium will be forced to adopt.
Thats a pretty nasty misrepresentation of philosophy there. Its not some mere academic dispute
We're building it, preaching it, putting new creeds into practice and they in turn have to undo our progress, not just stonewall...and its arguable that the limits of their stonewalling is going to be pretty similar to that experienced by the more easily justified censoring and silencing of Defiance.
Which ALSO limits what they can try, for fear of martyrdom triggered rebellions.
The risks here are different. Defiance is a race, to get the institutions sufficiently on our side to turn it to a more straightforward military campaign, but the risk is that undirected defiance and fury would tend strong to find someone to abuse and oppress. Thats how the Imperium got here to begin with.
Philosophy is challenging them in social influence while we build up personal assets and allies, such that when we actually bring about a confrontation they...probably want to try to kill us by throwing us at enemies of the Imperium, rather than by the Imperium ponderously maneuvering against us. The risk is frustration, progress will be incremental as they work to erode us and let us buy our own doom proving ourselves.
This is actually a fundamental misunderstanding of Defiance on your part. Literally nothing in text of it says anything about military campaigns. IoM will crusade against us, of course, but we can never ever initiate an act of violence against them while being Defiant. Just do 100% diplomatic version of it.
Given who Ignatius is, it's actually way more reasonable to expect Defiance - an explicit departure from Imperial dogma - to be actively opposed to anti-humanity violence.
Old Imperial dogma is not about flock or humans, its about Imperium. So clinging to it, and Philosophy is clinging to it (see bolded text of the vote below) would...well, mean things?
[ ] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
Like, Philosophy is reusing old creeds to justify whatever we want; it necessarily means that changing culture and creed to something not formed and shaped by 10000 years of oppression is going to be harder.
Which, in part, means it's likely to be way more okay with human-on-human violence than whatever Ignatius with his humanist teachings cooks up.
We can cause Vandire related PTSD without also attacking them. It's an unfortunate implication, not a show-stopper, especially when we're a proven chosen one of the Emperor; if they're ignoring our status after we prove it to them, they're not going to be opposing us because they're worrying we're going to pervert the word of the emperor.
If we can cause Vandire-related PTSD without attacking them, then we can, as ctulhuslp says, go Defiance without going to war. Personally I think both of these options are fanciful, and that causing Vandire-related PTSD is absolutely a showstopper for the Imperial higher-ups.
Because we can build something in its place that, unfettered by the inefficiencies and self-sabotage of the Imperium, will be able to achieve more with less.
Bluntly, I am of the opinion that the Imperium is not actually a net benefit to humanity. I think it causes more problems than it solves. It's a breeding ground for rebellion and chaos cults and internecine strife in a way that we needn't be.
The only rank above Cardinal is Ecclesiarch, which requires you to get yourself elected one of the High Lords of Terra; something of a long-term goal, to say the least.
You mean "no more than a year long task" goal, right? Because Solar Bureaucracy charm has Speed the Wheels:
Speed The Wheels
Cost: 8m Mins: Bureaucracy 3, Essence 2 Type: Simple (Dramatic Action) Keywords: Combo-OK Duration: Indefinite Prerequisite Charms: Any Bureaucracy Excellency
The Lawgivers bring order and destroy corruption. The Solar speeds the process of a bureaucracy. Normally, an organization must first take a Begin Project dramatic action—ranging from minutes to months in its duration, depending on the organization's structure—before it can start actual work on a project.
The Solar communicates his desire for speedy resolution to the organization, and his player rolls ([Intelligence or Charisma] + Bureaucracy), adding the Solar's Essence in automatic successes. The difficulty of this roll is 1. If the person responsible for this project deliberately engages in delays, subtract an external penalty of ([that person's Intelligence + Bureaucracy] ÷ 2) from the successes on the Bureaucracy roll. The Solar is aware of such delaying tactics, however. If the Solar succeeds, this Charm divides the time needed to begin the project by (the Solar's Essence + 1), with a maximum possible time of one season. For example, for an Essence 5 Solar, if it would normally take six months to authorize naval repairs or obtain an audience with the local king, this Charm reduces that time to a single month. If it normally takes a century to obtain necessary paperwork from a Fair Folk freehold, the Solar resolves the matter in a single season.
This is pretty clearly for dealing with organizations you are not a part of. And "electing a new Ecclesiarch" is clearly a bureaucratic project. So, no more than a year.
Or at the very least we could get a meeting with Lords of Terra in a year. Solar Bureaucracy for the win!
If we declare war on the current Imperial Faith, that news will spread (relatively) rapidly to the nearby worlds and they will resist us. On the other hand, if a Cardinal (with support of the Sisters)(from a major Shrine world) announces new teachings, many priests will accept them (for all they know, this change is an official one supported by the Ecclesiarchy). We should use the grace period to spread our teachings as far as we can, not to declare the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the Emperor.
What war?
I can see nothing in Defiance vote which anything about us declaring war on anyone.
Defiance vs Philosophy divide is not about how militant are we; it's how seriously we diverge from Imperial dogma and, consequently, how violent will Imperium go against us.
Which probably means more violence, I guess? So maybe there is a point about Defiance being more violent overall. I am not sure that's even the case though.
But overall, as far as I understand, nothing stops 100% diplomatic (aside from self-defense) Defiant or militaristic Philosophic crusade or reunification or whatnot.
You mean "no more than a year long task" goal, right? Because Solar Bureaucracy charm has Speed the Wheels:
This is pretty clearly for dealing with organizations you are not a part of. And "electing a new Ecclesiarch" is clearly a bureaucratic project. So, no more than a year.
Or at the very least we could get a meeting with Lords of Terra in a year. Solar Bureaucracy for the win!
Wording says "necessary to begin the project", not finish. It even goes about "Normally, an organization must first take a Begin Project dramatic action—ranging from minutes to months in its duration, depending on the organization's structure—before it can start actual work on a project.".
Minor raids by overhyped pirates...I disagree on that score, Ignatius being a shard of the Emperor's power bonded to a human...
Chaos threw a system conquering force at the reincarnated Saint Sabbat in the Gaunt's Ghost novels, motivated solely by their hatred of "the petty godlings of the human order."
And she was just ("just") a Living Saint. Ignatius being what he is, "The Word Bearers have shown up with thousands of fanatical mutant supersoldiers and Goddamned Lorgar himself is hovering over your planet screaming about his Daddy Issues" isn't completely paranoid doomsaying I think.
And that is the kind of scenario where not being able to put out a call for reinforcements outside of whatever you have in Sector at the time will hurt.
Not saying it's guaranteed to happen or that Ig and Co can't beat something like that back on their own, but it'll be a pretty nasty grind with heavy costs even if they do succeed.
[x] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
