- Location
- Austria
Problem is, Ecclesiarchy is pretty apt at ignoring anything that does not force the issue.
So while Philosophy is safer bet, it's also more likely to get us nowhere, because, well, Ecclesiarchy.
Deus Pater (Exalted/40k)
- Thread starter Maugan Ra
- Start date
- Crossover
Problem is, Ecclesiarchy is pretty apt at ignoring anything that does not force the issue.
So while Philosophy is safer bet, it's also more likely to get us nowhere, because, well, Ecclesiarchy.
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
But... Ignatius IS special enough?
He's a Solar.
If other saints had a piece of Emperor, then he got a kidney and big blood transfusion.
He's Emperor's last big gamble, as was told in the introduction.
If he's not strong enough now, he will be soon enough.
- Location
- Denmark
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
Which lets us subvert more of the structures while they try to marginalize us
- Location
- Sydney
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
One issue with Defiance is we are announcing that the current Imperial Faith is completely wrong. Some worlds will hear of our new religion and convert to it, but others will only partly receive the message(/partly believe the message). Planets that abandon the old restrictions against dealing with Chaos, but not adopt our new restrictions against dealing with Chaos will fall into damnation.
We should not throw out the old system, until the new faith is established. Now we should focus on developing and spreading our message and only call the "Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere" after we have our new philosophy completely ready.
One issue with Defiance is we are announcing that the current Imperial Faith is completely wrong. Some worlds will hear of our new religion and convert to it, but others will only partly receive the message(/partly believe the message). Planets that abandon the old restrictions against dealing with Chaos, but not adopt our new restrictions against dealing with Chaos will fall into damnation.
We should not throw out the old system, until the new faith is established. Now we should focus on developing and spreading our message and only call the "Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere" after we have our new philosophy completely ready.
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Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
The Damocles Gulf Crusade was unusually swift because the Tau sparked a large scale rebellion. Like, for reference, the timeline at work here is,
018.M39: The Tau Empire's Second Sphere of Expansion is declared.
896.M40: Water Caste envoys begin the effort to convert alien worlds into the Empire by honeyed words, including dissident human worlds and, after 'decades' of work, dozens of Imperial worlds.
731.M41: The aged Commander Puretide is invited to tour the established colonies past the Damocles Gulf, including former Imperial worlds.
742.M41: The Damocles Gulf Crusade begins.
Decades of preparatory work triggers mass rebellion, and the Imperium's 'unusually swift' response still came eleven years after worlds were so firmly lost that they were being shown off to the Tau top brass. The war raged across four star systems, and took three further years.
The Imperium just... doesn't move quickly, dude. It's a ponderous leviathan, weighed down by thousands of years of corruption and broken systems.
Thor reformed the the Ecclesiarchy by waging open war on Vandire's Imperium. Yes, he worked with other Imperial institutions - those who declared support for his armed rebellion, and yes, he worked within the system, but only after he had military control of Terra itself.
A philosophical breach with the Imperium is the kind of thing that the Ecclesiarchy has thousands of years experience with absorbing and papering over while maintaining the baseline cruelties of Imperial rule. It is not impossible to reform through Solar oratory, but it can also be beaten through force of arms in order to effect radical changes upon liberated worlds and, put bluntly, I don't want to work within the system. My argument is not actually primarily a practical one; I am personally of the opinion that reforming the Imperium from within versus liberating it from itself are challenges of mostly equal difficulty, just in different ways, so my decision is driven by which approach I prefer, and that preference is driven by the fact that the system is a nightmarish abyss of cruelty and abuse which hungrily devours the dignity, desires, lives, and literal souls of countless people on a daily basis. It is rotten to the bone, and has no right to perpetuate itself any further.
So let's train up that Favoured War stat, put that oratory at work inspiring armies, and burn the Imperium down to build something that deserves to exist in our wake.
- Location
- Irkutsk
Even fucking Robout Guilliman(Master of Administration if there ever was one) wasn't able to change Imperium from within, all that much. Even the fact that he is most loyal Primarch(Primarch at all, for fuck sake) and have giant amounts of military control, ain't saving him from almost open defiance from High Lords of Terra and assasination planning.
We are just some Living Saint, who have no credibility at all, especially in comparison to Guilliman.
Direct confrontation is simply unavoidable.
Plus we decked Monodomynant Inqusitor in the face and exiled him. Inqusition will push with everything they got, to burn us and everyone around us to the ground. With Crusade if need be.
War Will Happen. And that's it.
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
I think we have a good starting point with the memories we've been given, particularly the details of the assassination of Silvana. The Ecclesiarchy is riddled with ancient lies, not the least of which being that is ultimately based on the Lectitio Divinitatus, a book written by (pre-Chaos) Lorgar.
I think we have a good starting point with the memories we've been given, particularly the details of the assassination of Silvana. The Ecclesiarchy is riddled with ancient lies, not the least of which being that is ultimately based on the Lectitio Divinitatus, a book written by (pre-Chaos) Lorgar.
Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
I've said this elsewhere, but it bears repeating.
A charismatic figure trying to secede from the Imperium at large isn't a new issue for the IoM. Space Marine Chapter Masters have done it (Lufgt Huron and the Badab War) Ecclesiarchy Cardinals have done it (Siege of Vraks) Planetary Governors by the bushel have done it, probably Lord Militant Generals of the Guard, Tech-priest, any faction or institution of the Imperium you care to name, at some point somebody has tried it.
And Ignatius going down that road...it fits him and his movement neatly into a certain mental box, and most of the relevant decision makers are going to proceed almost on auto-pilot, just fill out the relevant forms (and the Administratum probably does have a form for this) and let the machine run.
Something else to consider is that cutting yourself off from the Imperium at large means you are cutting yourself off from the Imperium at large. Which seems like a grand old idea right now, when all 99 of Ignatius' problems appear to be the Imperium at large, but when Chaos shows up in force (and I do mean when, the Emperor acting directly in the Materium in a way he hasn't done since the creation of the Primarchs is going to draw the attention of the Ruinous Powers, bet on it) having burned our bridges with the rest of the IoM is going to sting.
I've said this elsewhere, but it bears repeating.
A charismatic figure trying to secede from the Imperium at large isn't a new issue for the IoM. Space Marine Chapter Masters have done it (Lufgt Huron and the Badab War) Ecclesiarchy Cardinals have done it (Siege of Vraks) Planetary Governors by the bushel have done it, probably Lord Militant Generals of the Guard, Tech-priest, any faction or institution of the Imperium you care to name, at some point somebody has tried it.
And Ignatius going down that road...it fits him and his movement neatly into a certain mental box, and most of the relevant decision makers are going to proceed almost on auto-pilot, just fill out the relevant forms (and the Administratum probably does have a form for this) and let the machine run.
Something else to consider is that cutting yourself off from the Imperium at large means you are cutting yourself off from the Imperium at large. Which seems like a grand old idea right now, when all 99 of Ignatius' problems appear to be the Imperium at large, but when Chaos shows up in force (and I do mean when, the Emperor acting directly in the Materium in a way he hasn't done since the creation of the Primarchs is going to draw the attention of the Ruinous Powers, bet on it) having burned our bridges with the rest of the IoM is going to sting.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Philosophical schisms do the same thing, though. Again, there are a thousand variations of the Imperial Creed; the Ecclesiarchy has a lot of practice folding these differences into a greater whole and smoothing over the distinctions so long as the taxes are paid on time and the usual
Frankly, I think burning our bridges with the Imperium will make us less vulnerable to Chaos, not more. The rampant oppression and abuses of power the Imperium habitually engages in does a great deal to breed outcasts and dissident opinions willing to shack up with any opposing force that offers power.
- Location
- Russia
And plus, our aura is literal acid to daemons. If anything, our planet might become, aside from terra, the safest place in the galaxy from daemonic incursion.
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
Ambit
Help me
- Location
- Third Circle of Hell
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
The problem with the military approach is that the IoM isn't the only entity in the galaxy. Yeah, it is corrupt and all round crappy but it is also the one thing keeping Chaos, orks, space locusts, snotty space elves, sadistic space elves and a hundred types of other gribblies out.
Well mostly out.
A military conflict within the IoM? Everyone is going to exploit that - which means destruction and suffering over thousands of worlds because the troops and ships that should be guarding them are instead focused on internal strife.
I bet you there's like dozens if not hundreds of Inqusitors that would gladly clap our hands, slap our back and shout do it again. Like Recongregationism is one of the major philosophical trends/factions in the Inquisition and they'd back a reformist Imperial Saint to the hilt. Thorians are another major faction that can be brought to our side.
It'll also mean being 100% alone when it comes to Chaos fleets. Besides that it means being cut off from Earth so bye, bye stuff like safe astropaths for example.
Besides Chaos corruption isn't eliminated just because you give people 3 good meals, a better home and dental. It is extremely insidious and whilst a better life for the populace will certainly reduce it to some extent major changes require changing the galactic status quo which can only be done within the IoM... or by conquering the IoM which is a pretty hard task.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
No it's not. They keep each other down just as much - the Imperium just deals with them the most because it's the narrative focus of the game and the single largest polity (and therefore largest target) in the galaxy. The Imperium mostly keeps the various gribblies from destroying the Imperium, but human enclaves still exists beyond the Imperium's reach despite 30,000 years adrift in a callous universe.
The state of Imperium is not necessary to perpetuate humanity. The state of the Imperium is necessary to perpetuate the Imperium. The Imperium does not deserve to perpetuate itself.
A) Chaos mostly doesn't have fleets. Outside a few high-profile power blocs like the Eye of Terror of Huron Blackheart, its threat is mostly idealogue pirates. B) They can't cut us off from the Astronomicon, and we are the Emperor's literal Chosen, we can find our own Astropaths somewhere in the sector.
Eliminated? No, but I assert that a better quality of life will reduce the attraction of Chaos.
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[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
LoganBert34
Apprentice Clerk
- Location
- Australia
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
Human enclaves outside the IoM exist because the things that go bump in the night missed them. Nothing human besides the IoM could deal with a proper Waagh! let alone something like the Beast, or a Black Crusade, or a Nid hive fleet, or a Necron tomb world's forces or well practically anything of note. The Tau are a significant interstellar polity and yet they've mostly survived by luck and not facing something serious - humanity being reduced to that is a huge loss.
a) Chaos doesn't have that many fleets compared to the IoM - they're still capable of screwing large portions of the galaxy.
b) What place has Navigator houses? Terra. What place trains Astropaths and most psykers in general? Terra. The IoM might be a corrupt wreck but it is the top corrupt wreck in a galaxy that's actively hostile to human life for a reason. Well for a lot of reasons to be more precise. Surviving without the IoM's resources is more of a matter of luck than anything even without active hostility from the IoM (and there's little chance of that if we want to go full heretic).
- Location
- United states of america
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Oh please, the Imperium doesn't deal with proper Waaagh! or Black Crusades or Necron tomb worlds. Parts of the Imperium do that, most of the time - you know, assets on the scale of a sector, like our conservative plans are aiming to take over. The Tau, meanwhile, have beaten a Hive Fleet, countless Ork invasions, and three major Imperial campaigns, often while continuing to expand their empire. There's also the Interex, as we've been over before. It is simply false to claim that a star nation needs to be on the scale of the Imperium to endure the threats this galaxy has to offer; major campaigns like Black Crusades or Hive Fleet Behemoth are actually pretty rare, on the scale of the galaxy. Most of the fighting is the galactic equivalent of brushfire wars, the kind of single-planet conflicts that make for a decent Ciaphas Cain novel.
a) Frankly, no, they're not. Chaos is overhyped. It rarely causes major wars outside of fleets roaming out from the Eye of Terror, and is otherwise limited to piratical raids and random Daemonic incursions when the stars align. That's not screwing over 'large portions of the galaxy'.
b) If we have ships, we have Navigators of our own, ergo we could found our own Navis Nobilite house if the need arose. Ditto Astropaths. The Imperium handles their training, yes, but they don't have that training on lockdown.
Like, you seem to be missing that the Imperium does not survive with the Imperium's resources. Prior to Guilliman's return, the Imperium was losing. It was a major element of the grimdark atmosphere that the Imperium was dying by inches, that each new catastrophe might be the straw that broke the camel's back, and a great part of the reason for that is the Imperium is riddled with tumourous inefficiencies and needless cruelties, which it embraces out of a misguided sense of necessity.
The Imperium is overwhelmed by the threats facing it in large part because it is wasteful, inefficient and self-sabotaging, and it persists largely because it is simply so massive that very few threats can do more than chip away at it. It is a fat, out of shape heavyweight boxer being beaten down by an endless succession of angry fourteen year olds.
For goodness sake, one of the most common wars that the Imperium fights is suppressing rebellions against its rule, because that rule is ridiculously oppressive and cruel! The amount of resources the Imperium wastes slapping band-aids on problems it causes for itself is staggering, and this is not some tangential issue that can be fixed, this is the fundamental nature of the Imperium as a fascist polity. Fixing that requires such sweeping reforms that we'll be denounced as a heretic anyway, so it'll be less painful to bite the bullet and go Defiant now, when we still have a grace period of nobody really knowing what the hell is happening on Sanguis.
Even without the power of Exaltation, we're going to be punching significantly above our weight class compared to the Imperium, simply by not being weighed down by all the crud that it embraces.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Solars, as a rule, tend to struggle against massive, entrenched organizations that are tailored to resist subversion in your means.
The Guild for instance is set up with lesser organizations acting as crumple zones to warn the major one of magic social stuff.
The Guild for instance is set up with lesser organizations acting as crumple zones to warn the major one of magic social stuff.
[x] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
Here to save the Imperium, not burn it.
Here to save the Imperium, not burn it.
- Location
- Austria
You kinda have to do at least some burning to save the good parts.
I mean, it's like saying "we should make Third Reich democratic country, not burn it". Like. You can't. You have to kill the rotten edifice of oppression like this to do something better. Some things cannot be reformed because they are fractally rotten.
And, wrt IoM in particular, comparison with Third Reich is sorta apt, fascism and all.