Deus Pater (Exalted/40k)

linkhyrule5 said:

Yeah, I'm not... if we don't make too many dumb decisions (a big if to be sure ), we can absolutely make Defiance work, just make our sector of the galaxy a better place to live than the whole rest of it. And if that's the best we can do, then that's the best we can do.

--- But if there's one thing the Chosen of the Emperor should not lack in, it is hubris. If we can target the entire galaxy, the entire Imperium, we should.

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Like I said, we're pretty much Sebastian Thor 2.0: Gold Edition. We absolutely parlay this into something bigger if we can get some luck.

As for future plans, we need to hit E2 and grind War until we get and Tiger Warrior Training Technique, and turn our disposable zealot peasants into something worth a damn. Even at e1, the prereq League of Iron Preparation can still get us a lot more utility out of what we've got. Anyone else got development plans? As sexy as the idea of Heaven Thunder Hammering a Great Unclean One into a volcano is, Presence, Bureaucracy, and War just feel so much more impactful for our position.

Imrix said:

Nah, we can pull it off. The Imperium can level an awful lot of violence, sure, but it's a cumbersome, inefficient thing. By way of example, the Damocles Gulf Crusade is reckoned as slow to gear up, but actually unusually swift by Imperial standards, and it took like ten years to get going and five months to arrive. That's a long time for a Solar to put their house in order.

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And that was to deal with xenos scum, not an angry verified Imperial Saint with the backing of the Sisters of Battle. I'm sure that they'll be able to manage it eventually, but quite a lot of folks are going to be pretty hesitant to throw down with someone boiling with the power of the God Emperor.

They could be using those armies for other things after all. Fighting Chaos, Eldar, and other threats. Things that aren't Imperial Saints.

[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.

If people have a problem with this and I are going to interfere, drag their feet, deny, or argue the point? Well fuck you we have bureaucracy charms.

TenfoldShields said:

i love her, she's great, i don't even know her name but i know everything i need to know about her. she just met a chosen of the god-emperor cheerfully spent the entire afternoon brutalizing him, it's fantastic.

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The update gave her name, it's Instructor Inga.


For the vote... On the one hand getting the common people on side is good, but we also want the people in positions of power to embrace our heterodoxy. The thing is, if we can convert over important officials to our cause that means the Ecclesiarchy is going to find itself fucking stonewalled when it comes in and starts making angry noises, while simply reaching out the masses might mean our beliefs spread like wildfire and reach a lot of people it isn't going to help when the Inquisition starts burning people for heresy en masse.

Which makes me inclined to either Philosophy or Defiance; not sure which would be better. The Imperium might be a lost cause, but we can probably do better than just a sector or two.

[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.

If Sebastian Thor could make it work, so can we.

Arcus said:

The update gave her name, it's Instructor Inga.


For the vote... On the one hand getting the common people on side is good, but we also want the people in positions of power to embrace our heterodoxy. The thing is, if we can convert over important officials to our cause that means the Ecclesiarchy is going to find itself fucking stonewalled when it comes in and starts making angry noises, while simply reaching out the masses might mean our beliefs spread like wildfire and reach a lot of people it isn't going to help when the Inquisition starts burning people for heresy en masse.

Which makes me inclined to either Philosophy or Defiance; not sure which would be better. The Imperium might be a lost cause, but we can probably do better than just a sector or two.

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Like I said, if our Bureaucracy Charms have the scale we need...

.... An Exalt rises above petty reality. The same Enlightenment that permits a martial-focused Exalt to leap in the air in the face of an Exterminatus and declare that the heat, light, and impact sufficient to glass a planet is simply irrelevant before their impossible skill, just as easily permits a social-focused Exalt to ignore minor things like "the laws of sociology and propaganda". Something like "rendering every lay member fervent, educated supporters of what ought to be an abstruse, arcane theological quibble" is well within the range of the Exalted.

(... Er, I'm more talking to the thread than to you in particular, sorry if it comes off as me lecturing you about Exalted )

Cetashwayo said:

[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.

BRING ON THE ALBIGENSIAN CRUSADE

wait they lost that one

BRING ON THE HUSSITE WARS

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I'VE BEEN WAITING TO DEFENESTRATE A JACKASS SINCE CHARGEN.

[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.

Because Defiance shares its first three letters with defenestration and seems likeliest to lead to such.

Zefferen said:

And that was to deal with xenos scum, not an angry verified Imperial Saint with the backing of the Sisters of Battle. I'm sure that they'll be able to manage it eventually, but quite a lot of folks are going to be pretty hesitant to throw down with someone boiling with the power of the God Emperor.

They could be using those armies for other things after all. Fighting Chaos, Eldar, and other threats. Things that aren't Imperial Saints.

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You could easily argue the other way around. Few things threaten the stability of the Empire as much large scale rebellion and a rebellion led by a quasi saint and supported by a large part of clergy has to be something of a worst case scenario for the Imperium/inquisition. Other than a full blown Dark Crusade and an endlessly snowballing Ork Waagh (and maybe the Tyranids depending on your interpretation/handling of them) nothing has as much potential to damage the Imperium (and overthrow the existing ruling class) as something like that.


And I have to admit that I feel that the setting of Warhammer, especially in regards to the Warp, should severely limit what even a Solar can achieve. If your best and only method of transstellar communication is to either upload your information into the brain of a special psyker and have him send said message through the demon invested warp to another special psyker from you then download it (and I am skipping things like that each psyker interprets/sees those messages differently, the massive variation in coding and decoding soft and hardware (I mean if we look at reality it is a small miracle that a vox-vid from planet a runs on the "computers" on planets b, and don't get me started on the insanity of something like a system upgrade on such a scale) the possibility of said message changing or even travelling through time etc. or sending a ship through the warp (which probably can transport far more information but is slower and suffers from many of the same challenges) there isn't that much you can do.

And similarly our starting planet isn't exactly well equipped when it comes to industry and the like and even if run inhumanly efficient it should/would likely compare badly with your average forge or even hiveworld. And that isn't stuff you can fix in a short time frame but things that take decades to do.


[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.

[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.

[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.

Given that we wouldn't be the first saint murdered for political reasons if it came to that taking a less openly hostile approach would be prudent. Plus it makes us easier for our brothers to interact with and by offering avenues to challenge us WITHOUT resorting to accusations of heresy we can hopefully head of some of our opponents.

Finally those who challenge us might bring up valid points, faith that cannot survive doubt is not faith at all. We can at least listen. Plus less pyres.

[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.

We Fight with Our Words!

[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.


There's some good arguments for defiance but if there's one fundamental problem for the IoM is that they'd rather hang separately than hang together. If we could change that, even a little bit instead of getting on the endless cycle of violent visionaries that fundamentally made things worse in their intransigence then the overall positive impact will be that much greater.

A large, long term doctrinal impact will do a lot more for dragging humanity out of the mire than three perfectly administrated sectors will. Is the establishment corrupt? Absolutely. But burning it down isn't the solution because it will cause massive amounts of damage whilst the IoM is fighting Chaos and Orks and all the other assorted gribblies.

Besides philosophy very much plays to our strengths - Ignatius is pretty much optimised for pushing a message through and very much not optimised for say leading a rebellion.\

Imrix said:

The Ecclesiarchy eats philosophical differences for breakfast. That's a big part of what it does; there are a thousand variations of the Imperial Creed, and so long as they agree on certain fundamental points, that's enough for the Ecclesiarchy to not give a shit while the wheels of bureaucracy smother any defiance under the corpulent bosom of imperialism, corruption and institutional inertia. If we couch this breakaway in philosophy, then either we basically stay in the Ecclesiarchy proper, or we're just kicking this can down the road to when we actually break loose from the rotten, hateful edifice that is the Imperium, and then we'll have to do it with the baggage of previous dithering hanging around our necks.

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The Ecclesiarchy can in itself be changed. Sebastian Thor did it once - we can very much do it again. Breaking away openly creates a ton of problems both for us and the IoM while inevitably limiting our reach. Reforming the Ecclesiarchy on the other hand opens up the possibility for a real, IoM wide religious revival which will lead to the IoM becoming less crappy because one of its major institutions is suddenly actually functional.

Zero Gravitas said:

The Ecclesiarchy can in itself be changed. Sebastian Thor did it once - we can very much do it again. Breaking away openly creates a ton of problems both for us and the IoM while inevitably limiting our reach. Reforming the Ecclesiarchy on the other hand opens up the possibility for a real, IoM wide religious revival which will lead to the IoM becoming less crappy because one of its major institutions is suddenly actually functional.

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You argue against your own point -- Sebastian Thor pushed through his reforms by force of arms by way of a straight up crusade.

Maugan Ra said:

[ ] Revelation. Present your new philosophy as a direct command from the Emperor himself. This is the easiest explanation for the average citizen to accept, but it is also self-contained; any change will be focused and limited to the precise topics of the 'vision', for better or worse.

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Hasn't Ignatius sworn to himself that he would never present his own opinion as the Emperor's will? Without lying, at best Revelation could be interpreted as the Emperor knowing our core beliefs and the fact that our flock was being purged because of them, upon which he blessed us at the perfect moment to stop said punishment.

Edit:

[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.

[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.

Godwinson said:

You argue against your own point -- Sebastian Thor pushed through his reforms by force of arms by way of a straight up crusade.

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With the aid of other IoM institutions. He very much didn't have separatist inclinations and afterwards worked within the sistem to reform the Ecclesiarchy.

Sure there's going to be blood shed and wars on some level because hey IoM! But that very much doesn't have to be the main thrust.

[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.

Look.
Ignatius is mostly a talker.
And this approach means our enemies will mostly try counter-talking.
Considering how quick and ridiculous a Solar's growth is, any summons to further saint testing or other subtle moves will be crushed under his GLOWING AURA OF HOLINESS.
And Defiance means we'll be using those combat skills pretty damn soon.

[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.

[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.

I don't want us to spend the next few centuries limited to making a tiny corner of the Imperium a decent place to live while the rest of the galaxy burns. Philosophy gives us the opportunity to enact Imperium-wide changes. They'll meet with resistance, of course, but we're a Solar and everything will meet resistance.

There was plenty of Living Saints who had a shard of Emperor of Man within himself. All of them tried to work inside Imperium, within Command Structure. What is their fate? Most of them were never recognized and burned as Heretics, other despite confirmations of their nature is still hunted down(Ephrael Stern), others became a usefull tool(Celestine) and the most succesfull of them were assasinated by their own rulers(Solar Macharius) and collegues(Silvana).
Political war, Theological changes and inside works, will not be succesfull. If you actually want to change Imperium you need to conquest it and break it down, revolution of sorts. As it is, we just one of many Living Saints Imperium had. So we are not special enough, to revitalize a rotten and dead corpse from within.

Okay, Tenfold and Imrix both have a point, I am convinced.


Also, yeah, on second thought, IoM is not above murdering even simply loyal saints; we are going to be declared heretic regardless of what we do. Philosophy would make it less violent directly, but, given how many billions suffer under imperial oppression, not less violent in general.


[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.


I always wanted 40k!Hussites quest anyway.

[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.

[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.

Katarsiis said:

There was plenty of Living Saints who had a shard of Emperor of Man within himself. All of them tried to work inside Imperium, within Command Structure. What is their fate? Most of them were never recognized and burned as Heretics, other despite confirmations of their nature is still hunted down(Ephrael Stern), others became a usefull tool(Celestine) and the most succesfull of them were assasinated by their own rulers(Solar Macharius) and collegues(Silvana).
Political war, Theological changes and inside works, will not be succesfull. If you actually want to change Imperium you need to conquest it and break it down, revolution of sorts. As it is, we just one of many Living Saints Imperium had. So we are not special enough, to revitalize a rotten and dead corpse from within.

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Uh dude, the ones who cast defiance burned the same too.
The Imperium is equal opportunity pie shitting.

But we're incredible at speech, and theology while only merely good at warcraft.

We WANT efforts to marginalize and discredit us. Its our favored battlefield.
Direct opposition is not.