Deus Pater (Exalted/40k)

[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.



 
Also double-posting lol but tbh by the time I finish typing I expect someone will have posted before me:

The different presentations are also, somewhat significantly, best suited for different things. If we want to try to get ourselves, like, elected Ecclesiarch down the line by making our new school of thought the primary doctrine of the Imperial Cult then, yeah, Philosophy is the way to go. But ultimately I don't think that's wise, one of the major ongoing themes of this, at least thus far, is that the Imperium as a whole has become deeply rotted. And there is no one man, one person, as it stands who can reform the entire thing into something sane and human. Now, can Ignatius become that man? Maybe. Probably yeah honestly. But I don't think that he should and that top-down rework is, at most, tacking on another millennia or two onto something that's already more than half-dead. While conceding ground and issues to would-be allies that would still leave countless to suffer even as we slap duct tape over the cracks.

What I want to see is Ignatius split this sector and maybe a few neighboring ones off into an independent, autonomous domain and make significant reforms at that scale. Where his powers will be more keenly felt, where his presence is more prominent, and where change can be enacted faster and to longer lasting success. Forging a state that can and will survive the inevitable final, catastrophic spiral of the Imperium as a whole when that day comes. And Defiance is very much tailored into that.
 
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[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.

Good arguments by TFS.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
 
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
 
[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.

I see the points being made, but I feel like at least trying to save the Imperium at large, rather than writing it off and settling for a sector or three.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.

They will brand us heretic or traitor with or without our defiance. All this option changes is time available and amount of changes delivered.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
 
I see the points being made, but I feel like at least trying to save the Imperium at large, rather than writing it off and settling for a sector or three.

I mean the Big Man Himself couldn't even save the Imperium at large and, indeed, created the conditions that lead to its catastrophic fall through attempting to centralize all power on his throne. And Ignatius is...not him. Impressive, sure, but not him. Not by a long shot.

Edit: And on the other end a "sector or three" is still close to a thousand worlds each with populations peaking into the billions. So...

Hardly settling tbh.
 
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To be honest given we were already opposed enough to have a Hereticus inquisitor straight up light our followers on fire and threaten us with death, trying to walk it back with other options is uh possible I suppose but to what end? What benefits can we gain by basically backing down when we are already damned and in revolution in the eyes of the Ecclesiarchy?
 
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[X] Philosophy. Construct a system of quotes, teachings and doctrine from across the ages that can be used to justify your new approach. Such a change of belief will be wide-reaching and thorough, but requires more time to convey and is easier for other priests to engage with and attack.
 
"Prove it," the Emperor says
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Oct 2, 2018 at 8:37 PM, finished with 1523 posts and 37 votes.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
 
To be honest given we were already opposed enough to have a Hereticus inquisitor straight up light our followers on fire and threaten us with death, trying to walk it back with other options is uh possible I suppose but to what end? What benefits can we gain by basically backing down when we are already damned and in revolution?

It is still theoretically possible for this to be walked back. If the backers above us decide to cool off, which I admit is not very likely, this can be papered over by the whole living saint thing, at least until they decide a new attack plan.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.
 
[X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.

I think that I'll indeed change over to defiance. The arguments above have been fairly good at making me at their point.
 
It is still theoretically possible for this to be walked back. If the backers above us decide to cool off, which I admit is not very likely, this can be papered over by the whole living saint thing, at least until they decide a new attack plan.


To what end? At the end of the day we are a radical firebrand not some incrementalist.
 
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