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[X] Plan Rifle and Anvil
The Maid of the Comet: A Tale from Azeroth
- Thread starter King Tharassian
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- Fantasy
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- canada
ah but thats what Jeanne does! It's how she got to become a General plus everyone here knows of her and likely respects her too.
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They barely know her.
She got to be a General with a more pious people in a lower magic/divinity world (read: none) and they were getting their asses kicked anyway so they were out of options.
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yet that world was also one where women were looked down upon! here women are equals plus they are honestly more pious in the crusade than they were back in france, remember Fanatics! Plus Jeanne's power with the light is above almost anyone without training and she is known for several feats which made her well known as a very potent leader and fighter. As for these guys not knowing her, several had witnessed her in battle and we have talked plenty with their leader so if he defers to us they all will.
Also how many generals do you know of that regular troops meet in person and are friends with?
King Tharassian
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- Victory Bay, Kronus
Wow. Interesting. We'll see how this goes.
Vote ends either tonight or tomorrow morning, everyone.
Vote ends either tonight or tomorrow morning, everyone.
- Location
- USA
[X] Plan Rifle and Anvil
I am not a fan of micomanaged combat and complex plans are more likely to blow up in your face.
I am not a fan of micomanaged combat and complex plans are more likely to blow up in your face.
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Feats of light don't magically make you a better leader or the absolute most tactically adept. It's just not right to say that she actually is a "very potent leader and fighter" as a fait accompli.
Beyond that, treating these guys as just fanatics is both not accurate at this stage of the Crusade and doing them a disservice.
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but its not complex it is basic small unit tactics... I could understand if the size was like 50 or more guys but we have less than 20 troops with us and the orders only take like 5-10 seconds to hand out and can be done while we are running towards the final two...
I never said she was that because of the light... but because we already HAVE a battle under our belt that we LED with our tactics pulling off a MAJOR victory and they were no less complex than the ones I am currently giving....
seriously, melee troops pairing off to cover each other with the ranged ones focus firing plus the magic troops providing backup for the melee troops is BASIC TACTICS! it is literally the basics of small unit tactics and a shield wall is a RIDICULOUS idea to think 14 footmen can hold against 12 FEL EMPOWERED water elementals that tower over them like giants! Literally I know this type from both games, they are 2-3 times the height of the footmen and way broader with more mass to them.
It is not unreasonable to believe that these guy will follow our orders after how well our orders went with the battle by the Forsaken gate...ESPECIALLY when the leader of the troops with us currently was there and likely had at least some of the troops with us now there as well. They followed our orders then, I don't see why not now?
Finally the main reason why I want to do this is to establish us a leader in the crusade in their minds, get them used to seeing us as a commander. It will help when the higher ups declare us a heretic.
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It's basic tactics to give individual orders to each individual soldier down to who they're targeting out of an equal set of enemies right as they're already being rushed?? NO. And again, Jeanne has never worked with these guys on this sort of thing.
This isn't a pre-raid briefing with an oiled team who knows how everyone else is going to react with a sole leader with established authority. It's an ad-hoc contingent of different troops with one girl who there may have been rumors of her prowess but nothing concrete.
So, which is it, the footmen are going to get squished no matter what or the footmen are actually capable of fighting? You've contradicted yourself within the span of two sentences.
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ok first, my plan does NOT call for orders to each individual soldier but rather orders to each different unit TYPE! do you not give orders differently to people armed with a rocket launcher than those armed with a rifle, or than those inside a tank? fk YES you do. Also once again not only did she likely work with them and give them orders before this at the forsaken gate battle, but these are all battle hardened veterans AS STATED earlier in the update and therefore most certainly know of the basic tactic of pairing up and guarding each others backs while the riflemen certainly understand the concept of focused fire. THESE ARE NOT GREEN TROOPS!
Secondly I am advising that STANDING STILL and hiding behind a shield when A SMALL TIDAL WAVE attacks you is idiotic, They need to be able to move around to dodge and shit not stand still in lockstep. That is the only way they can fight the water elementals, So no I have not contradicted myself, seriously use some goddamn sense, the fk is a shield wall going to do against water? it will just go through the cracks and kill them.
- Location
- PA
I've got to ask: Why the dislike for trying to micro? Like I've seen this multiple times that people don't want to even touch tactics with a ten-foot pole. And I can understand that! That's where the Bandwagoning comes from.
Incidentally?
Both plans to me seem to rely on the shieldsmen to tank while the riflemen shoot and the mages do their thing, however/whatever it is they do right?
Sooo arguing from the perspective of 'too much tactics!' or 'she's not a general!' Just seems like the kind of talk that poisons wells. ESPECIALLY when it's not paired with a suggestion of what to ACTUALLY do.
Incidentally?
Both plans to me seem to rely on the shieldsmen to tank while the riflemen shoot and the mages do their thing, however/whatever it is they do right?
Sooo arguing from the perspective of 'too much tactics!' or 'she's not a general!' Just seems like the kind of talk that poisons wells. ESPECIALLY when it's not paired with a suggestion of what to ACTUALLY do.
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- canada
THANK YOU I mean really how is a shield wall LESS complex to pull off than pairing up? also she is a general and has led literally dozens of skirmishes and several major battles. All of which she won.... which should tell you how good she is at tactics, especially when she also is known for being able to easily hold the attention of her army and command her troops while serving as an awe inspiring figure for them.... commanding less than two dozen troops with basic pair up and focus fire tactics should be ease itself for her.
King Tharassian
Governor-Militant
- Location
- Victory Bay, Kronus
The debate is quite strong, isn't it?
I think the vote'll stay open a while longer. Not least because there's not a clear majority right now.
I think the vote'll stay open a while longer. Not least because there's not a clear majority right now.
King Tharassian
Governor-Militant
- Location
- Victory Bay, Kronus
Vote will stay open until 10.
- Location
- Earth
OK, you've convinced me. I wasn't that confident in my vote anyway.
[X] Plan I ain't no armchair General!
[X] Plan I ain't no armchair General!
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His targeting is RTS nonsense. None of those orders actually make any sense to give to people who are just about to be attacked and who you've never worked with and who probably haven't worked between their groups if they were real people.
He expects the footmen to perfectly pair off, he expects the riflemen to figure out who the footmen aren't attacking, and he expects the casters to somehow support troops in skirmisher formation who are going to be in and out of line of sight.
Nevermind that he inexplicably wants the riflemen to shoot unengaged targets and basically splits damage seemingly as much as possible as well as somehow the riflemen are supposed to be attracting attention and still shooting back.
It's a bad plan on multiple levels.
That's leaving aside the misconception and overstatement of the elementals' capabilities. If the water elements are just going to "go around cracks and kill them", that means they they don't need to form a shape at all, which means that it is literally pointless for the footmen to fight them at all. Dodging isn't going to do shit, because in this dream world then the water elements just need to deform to water, cling to their feet, and either trip and kill them or reform up and inside their armor and do any number of horrible things to them.
They obviously can't and as such the most basic of formations will do just fine -or- they can and it doesn't matter what you tell them to do they're just going to die horribly anyway.
Use some critical thinking for crying out loud.
King Tharassian
Governor-Militant
- Location
- Victory Bay, Kronus
So.... Since the debate started again... I decided to extend this a bit more...
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- canada
ok 1) yes I do expect them to pair off at least somewhat perfectly... THEY ARE VETERAN TROOPS!
2) my tactics are NOT 'RTS nonsense' as you put it... focused fire is something that exists even IRL plus it would be FAR more common in WoW where people have enchanted armor or superhuman capabilities that let them TANK A RIFLE SHOT TO THE HEAD! like WTF how can focused fire NOT exist in such a world?!?
3) in and out of line of sight... in flat terrain by a riverbank.... sure buddy.
4) I am trying to keep the water elementals from ganging up on our troops to keep them splitting damage between us and engage them in a WAR OF ATTRITION! since we have healers and they dont we win that battle.
5) I never said they did normally flow through armor with basic attacks... BUT a common spell of water elementals is TIDAL WAVE which invokes a small tidal wave which crashes among troops and shields would not matter in that case. another VERY common spell is FROST NOVA which would freeze all our footmen together if we clumped them up letting the water elementals take out all our casters.
6) pairing up is a VERY common and well known tactic in sword and shield era battles... its the basics of the basics. Heck it has carried on to the modern era too in terms of suppressing fire tactics.
so ya, maybe you need to learn some bloody WoW lore and do some 'critical thinking' yourself instead of assuming shouting 'shield wall!' a tactic that is VERY rarely used in the Warcraft universe where spells like Blizzard, flamestrike and many other AOE abilities exist... and where armies tend to be SMALLER!
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- PA
...Okay so looking this over I have two thoughts:
1. You two are too heated to actually debate this right now- even if one side makes logical points the other side is going to have too much emotional fire to even acknowledge those points and will just dig in further.
2. As far as the tactics presented goes...
I don't much like the attrition battle idea but I also find myself questioning the capability of focus-firing down the elementals one at a time. I don't think we have the numbers to do that so getting the damage to be evenly distributed so the healers can deal with it isn't a bad plan.
Though in my opinion what REALLY sets me on Sans' side? Is that he can actually defend his plan, as opposed to just throwing out a relatively simple thing and then basically putting all your effort into disproving the other guy. Like you're not really making a great arguement for your plan to be a good idea, just saying that his is a bad one. BOTH of you have to prove your stuff here.
1. You two are too heated to actually debate this right now- even if one side makes logical points the other side is going to have too much emotional fire to even acknowledge those points and will just dig in further.
2. As far as the tactics presented goes...
I don't much like the attrition battle idea but I also find myself questioning the capability of focus-firing down the elementals one at a time. I don't think we have the numbers to do that so getting the damage to be evenly distributed so the healers can deal with it isn't a bad plan.
Though in my opinion what REALLY sets me on Sans' side? Is that he can actually defend his plan, as opposed to just throwing out a relatively simple thing and then basically putting all your effort into disproving the other guy. Like you're not really making a great arguement for your plan to be a good idea, just saying that his is a bad one. BOTH of you have to prove your stuff here.
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1) You expect the troops in the center to perfectly realize who they're supposed to pair off with and which of the supposed closest targets is their assignment, no matter counting and splitting off from left or right?
2) Yes and YOU ARE NOT PROPERLY USING FOCUS FIRE. You are using riflemen tanks and an unsupported volley!
3) So, they're not going in and out sight, which means they're not actually dodging and just shuffling back and forth. That's not dodging. And you think this is somehow superior to a shield wall? I have no idea what you think you're envisioning but an actual battlefield is going to be chaotic and have troops going in and out of line of sight all the time if they're actually moving and fighting not in formation.
4) So the water elementals, which you later agree can't deform, are going to ignore the laws of physics to stack up all onto the same soldier in the same place? That's amazing.
Instead of being forced to fight the entire wall where each soldier is capable of supporting each other with clean lines of sight to the support troops in the back and for the riflemen to have a natural focus target on the far flank to quickly and easy rotate through.
5) So the elementals get to use all their magic from the game but our footmen can't shield bash and our casters can't silence? And they will somehow root our front line in place and then...teleport behind the wall afterwards...?
Even supposing this is true, how on earth is trying to fight individually supposed to stop this? Each individual elemental still frost novas multiple soldiers at once because they still need to be close to actually block and threaten and then if they do, they still will apparently run past and splatter the casters in this theoretical scenario.
6) Pairing up in a skirmish is one thing, not in a scrum where they're the only line of defense and they need to keep relatively in place to present for support troops and to preserve line of fire for everyone else.
Nothing you said is an actual argument against it because the melee fights still happen, where yes footmen are all going to be standing next to each other. Nevermind that a lot of things are an abstraction size wise if you're even trying to draw game comparisons.
The theory that complexity is somehow a universal good is so fallacious on its head that I don't even know where to start.
SIMPLE, well proven orders and tactics that cannot be screwed up are superior in the heat of battle.
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It's less that complexity is good and more the way you seem lazer-focused on disproving the other guy rather then pointing out the upsides of your plan.
But lemme re-look at both...
Sans wants to split his army up into little pods that each take on an elemental I think.
You want to stay in formation and slam into the elementals. I think that's an accurate summary.
I'm...A bit leery of your plan if only because it feels like it only half-utilizes the shield-wall and asks poor Jeanne to single-handedly keep the elementals from flattening her and the Riflemen in a charge. Also no direct mage orders.
Sans seems to think Jeanne can 1v2 these things, which I'm also leery of. But of the two I think I find Sans plan more stable, assuming it doesn't run into organizational issues which is a distinct possibility.
But lemme re-look at both...
Sans wants to split his army up into little pods that each take on an elemental I think.
You want to stay in formation and slam into the elementals. I think that's an accurate summary.
I'm...A bit leery of your plan if only because it feels like it only half-utilizes the shield-wall and asks poor Jeanne to single-handedly keep the elementals from flattening her and the Riflemen in a charge. Also no direct mage orders.
Sans seems to think Jeanne can 1v2 these things, which I'm also leery of. But of the two I think I find Sans plan more stable, assuming it doesn't run into organizational issues which is a distinct possibility.
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I want to either withstand or countercharge the elementals, whichever is most prudent, then while they have all of the attention the riflemen can swing out wide and start enfilading the line while Jeanne draws all the attention. If that isn't clear or could be cleaned up, I would gladly take on any improvements.
The elementals can't peel without both first getting through Jeanne, taking crossfire from the mages who will now also have very clear sight on them on the side of the battle line, and withstanding rifle fire the entire time. And of course weakening their forces in the central scrum.
Yes, no direct mage orders and limited micromanaging in general. If these are supposed veterans, they should know how to do their jobs in orthodox situations.
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ummm ok 1st you do understand that water elementals are ranged attackers primarily right? they are not going to run in and attack that shield wall... I thought you knew this and were advocating for a slow advance under fire which is honestly retarded... but if you thought they were melee primarily then I can say that your plan would work A LOT better than mine if they were...
2nd.... I am assuming they have time while running forward to take cues from each other *which veteran troops do!* and pair up like that...
3rd.... you do realize water is see through correct? maybe it will throw targeting off slightly and maybe our other soldiers will get in the way of line of sight... but overall our healers should be able to target fairly well ESPECIALLY since most heal spells don't really need to travel from point A to B
4) you are VASTLY overestimating the damage potential of Riflemen... they do not in fact do any more damage than a guy with a sword... or if they do not by much.
5) once again enchanted armor and people capable of withstanding being shot in the head = unsupported riflemen should be mostly fine.
6) you are assuming our casters CAN teleport... its actually pretty uncommon for PRIESTS to be able to do so... also these guys are water focused spellcasters so I doubt they will have much of use OTHER than healing. as for shield bash well.... that works on water elementals how? in game logic bro.
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1) It's immaterial if they are or aren't. My plan does work better if they will bother to melee, because frankly most things in a real situation won't be limited (and if frost nova is supposed to be a relevant spell of theirs then they will want to close to use it) but even if they want to stay at ranged then keeping together on the charge to mass shock is still a good tactic.
Ranged units directly behind the attackers can't shoot in any situation, either static or advancing. That way lies the magic situation of friendly fire in the back. They MUST displace for line of sight to do anything or the frontal attackers were alternatively so far dispersed in skirmish mode as to be unable to hold a frontline anyway (ie all the elementals rush through the gaps and/or shoot their ranged attacks back onto a common target themselves).
2) This very much depends on how the enemy chooses to react but my inclination is to say that kind of targeting that isn't attack closest is more risk prone than anything else, because it just takes one situation of one guy having to solo for things to start going wrong with the kind of spacing you seem to describe.
3) They still need to surveil the whole line for who to heal most at any given point in time as well as maintain focus and presumably line of sight. There's no handy healer UI.
4) Damage potential of riflemen isn't relevant, it's about putting them both in the best position to succeed and giving a no-brainer situation on what to focus on first.
5) They're going to be far less capable of taking that damage than the footman in any circumstance. And in a realistic scenario, they either risk getting mobbed in melee with no one assigned to them to where they start being able to not even shoot, or they take more damage anyway and place more healer strain.
6) No, I was questioning how the elementals get to the caster even if they frost nova. They're still physically body blocked. They can't teleport past.
And you can't have your cake and eat it too with game logic. ;P