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The Second Rome: A Quest of Ancient Byzantium

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Bullmoose said:
I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. I'm just saying if we do plan to be an Agrippa to Manuel's Octavian, we need to work pretty hard to keep on the emperor's good side.
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The Emperor would be more worried if we are good at diplo than if we aren't, an amazing General can't do much if he can't gather support, but a great General that is also good at diplo? Remind me of some Romans in the past...
Our lack of competences would serve us well in this case.
 
And I'm pretty sure that emperor is good at diplo himself so anything short of diplo hero won't be a guarantee of us being able to manipulate him to be on his good side, he will probably keep us from power in order to stop us from gaining glory and using it to gain support and power.

Now a good general who is uneducated in the ways of the court and it's power struggle, that is the thing emperor needs. Someone who will win him battles and comand his armies, but won't be a serious political opponent.
 
Star said:
And I'm pretty sure that emperor is good at diplo himself so anything short of diplo hero won't be a guarantee of us being able to manipulate him to be on his good side, he will probably keep us from power in order to stop us from gaining glory and using it to gain support and power.

Now a good general who is uneducated in the ways of the court and it's power struggle, that is the thing emperor needs. Someone who will win him battles and comand his armies, but won't be a serious political opponent.
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That's actually exactly what I meant, but you said it way better.:D
 
Arlos said:
If we are incompetent in everything but military matter I think we will do fine :p
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Yes.

If you are absolutely incompetent at everything save military, you will certainly do...fine.

:turian:

As an absolutely unrelated aside, the Emperor Nikephoros Phokas, known as the White Death of the Saracens, was absolutely incompetent in anything but military. After the death of the Emperor Romanos, he seized the City through military force alone, forcibly appointing himself co-Emperor and regent of Romanos' five-year old son, Constantine.

Nikephoros was a military genius, the Hero of Syria and Crete, but was a famously dour and sullen man, overly pious and usually grim. His military victories probably saved the Empire from being totally overrun by the Muslims, but his personality was odious, and to finance his many wars, he increased taxes drastically (having little administrative sense), inflaming the people (rich and poor alike) against him.

Finally, his nephew and political enemy, the charismatic and equally skilled general John Tzimiskes, easily rallied the support of his generals and his people despite being in exile. Nikephoros' low skill with intrigue meant he had no idea a coup was coming until Tzimiskes walked into his bedroom, murdered him personally with the help of his wife the Empress, and proclaimed himself Emperor.

He is remembered in history as "...the White Death of the Saracens, hero of Syria and Crete, saintly and hideous, magnificent and insufferable".

:whistle:
 
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Telamon said:
Yes.

If you are absolutely incompetent at everything save military, you will certainly do...fine.

:turian:

As an absolutely unrelated aside, the Emperor Nikephoros Phokas, known as the White Death of the Saracens, was absolutely incompetent in anything but military. After the death of the Emperor Romanos, he seized the City through military force alone, forcibly appointing himself co-Emperor and regent of Romanos' five-year old son, Constantine.

Nikephoros was a military genius, the Hero of Syria and Crete, but was a famously dour and sullen man, overly pious and usually grim. His military victories probably saved the Empire from being totally overrun by the Muslims, but his personality was odious, and to finance his many wars, he increased taxes drastically (having little administrative sense), inflaming the people (rich and poor alike) against him.

Finally, his political enemy, the charismatic and equally skilled general John Tzimiskes, easily rallied the support of his generals and his people despite being in exile. Nikephoros' low skill with intrigue meant he had no idea a coup was coming until Tzimiskes walked into his bedroom, murdered him personally with the help of his wife the Empress, and proclaimed himself Emperor.

He is remembered in history as "...the White Death of the Saracens, hero of Syria and Crete, saintly and hideous, magnificent and insufferable".

:whistle:
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The lesson? OVERSPECIALIZATION IS GOOD! :p
 
I hope this one lasts, I always enjoy these quests. They just tend to die out so quickly...
 
[X] The Dragon's Tongue
[X] Blessing of Saint Michael

I think the dragon's tongue is a very underappreciated choice. While it leaves us with less military skill then mikrodrakon, it opens a path to learn under skilled general favoured by the emperor. I actually think that this would be the best path to become the emperor's Trusted, military right hand man.
 
Oshha said:
What if we just stick to being a loyal general?
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Loyalty is often only appreciated by the one you are loyal to. Should anyone seek his downfall, you would be first among their targets, by virtue of your loyalty.

This is not to say that loyalty is a bad choice, simply that loyal people may still have things to fear. Your master's enemies will become yours — and your master has many enemies.
 
What sort of enemies did Manuel have in the Empire? If he had no real competition, and we are completely loyal to him, we won't have to worry about people undermining our position to weaken him as much.
 
Telamon said:
Genghis Khan Temujin will be born in five years. You are 18, and Khan lives until 1224. If you live to be mid-60s, you will be alive during the height of the Mongol conquests — and if Byzantium truly expands across the Crusader States and the Near East as Manuel hoped during his reign, then it will be the biggest thing in their way, and will replace the Mamluks and Hungarians as the last and best chance to stop the Mongols from penetrating the West.

It would be the ultimate test, the greatest of the wars of the Byzantine Empire. A vast and unwashed horde of barbaroi at the doors of Christendom. Truly, any man who stepped up to lead the empire to victory in such a bitter age would be immortalized in history alongside Justinian, Constantine, and the very Saints themselves.
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So too will be the man who ends the fractious relic that is the Eastern Roman Empire, converts the Mongols to Christ, and strides alongside the Great Khan to triumph over the unwashed barbaroi of the west, eventually subjugating all the world. A dragon and a score of horses uniting the heavens; a single polity, from Japan to England.

Khan Mikael Mikrodrakon.
 
Satar said:
So too will be the man who ends the fractious relic that is the Eastern Roman Empire, converts the Mongols to Christ, and strides alongside the Great Khan to triumph over the unwashed barbaroi of the west, eventually subjugating all the world. A dragon and a score of horses uniting the heavens; a single polity, from Japan to England.

Khan Mikael Mikrodrakon.
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I actually like that idea.
 
No7sHere said:
The obvious solution is to marry someone who can take care of the diplomatic and intrigue side of things.
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Someone who can amass unlimited soft power and spin webs around you that you can't even understand?

That's not a very good idea: just take a look at the last few times in Roman history someone tried that:

Livia Augusta Drusilla, the first and greatest Roman Empress, was the power behind the throne, and murdered her husband Augustus Caesar (yes, that Augustus Caesar) when he tried to defy her. She murdered his heirs and his other descendants until only her children remained, and her grandson made her a God after her death.

Anna Dalassene, mother to the Emperor Alexios Komnenos. She planned and ensured his rise to the Imperial Throne, then effectively ran the empire while he defended it's borders. She controlled and manipulated him well into his forties, when the Emperor finally overcame her and had her exiled to a nunnery.

Theophano, the 'Scarlet Empress', one of the most infamous woman in Byzantine history. The daughter of a tavern-keeper, she was the lover of three emperors, mother to another two, and murderer of at least one. She killed the Emperor Constantine so his son, her husband Romanos, could gain the throne, then controlled him for his entire reign. After his sudden death (which was attributed to her, though never proven), she married and later murdered the previously-mentioned Emperor Nikephoros Phokas, and through her lover, the Emperor John Tzimiskes, and her sons, the Emperors Basil the Bulgar-Slayer and Constantine VIII, controlled the Byzantine Empire for some thirty-odd years.

Or perhaps the most famous of them all, the Empress and the Saint, Theodora: Wife to Justinian and master of Rome in all but name, she designed laws, orchestrated reforms, and manipulated her husband like a puppet. Priests, generals, magistrates, and kings -- all bowed lower before the Empress than the Emperor. After her death, Justinian's reign spiraled, his conquests slowed, and 'his' famous reforms slowed to a trickle.

A wife who is a capable and shrewd diplomat and intelligencer may just outshine you, and perhaps cast you aside when you are no longer needed. The women of Byzantium are deadly indeed, perhaps moreso than their male counterparts.
 
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Theodora was a badass, though.

But yeah, that plan has never worked out too well, so I still think having a balance will be best until we can really build up some skill.
 
Changing my vote to:

[X] Mikrodrakon
[X] Blessing of Saint Constantine

The best thing in my opinion is that we have know something about Diplomacy if we plan to become Emperor
 
Yeah, frankly having a wife like Theodora would be pretty cool I could deal with the fact that she de facto has more influence than us at court.
 
I'd be fine with a wife like Theodora, especially if we trusted her with it. It'd be cool if we could be honest about it,

"I'm just the face and the sword, you're better than me at everything else. I'll keep them all in line. Just tell me before you do anything big, we'll need to coordinate."

But alas, intrigue and politics will prevent us from being so straightforaward about it.

The answer of course, is to become Emperor and let her rule while we act as the iron fist.
 
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