Short term fixes:
1) Expand metalworking demand a shitton.
2) Hope your wallet holds out long enough for the market to adjust to this.
3) Let it go and watch the price of steel drop and all those new smithies selling to more people cheaply to stay in business.
Er, what problem is this a solution to? I mean, I suspect to a large extent this has already happened. Rome did a lot of what would have been incomprehensible megaprojects on the scale of just about any previous civilization other than maybe China. Some of their work was so impressive that medievals actually straight-up forgot it was even possible to do something that big and decided it must have been constructed by wizards or giants or something. They already expanded metalworking demand- and concrete demand, and so on- by a very large factor.

It's very important to realize that Rome was not underdeveloped in any reasonable sense of the word. Rome, like China for most of its history, was very thoroughly developed, up to the limit of the technology. The main reason they didn't have an industrial revolution was that far too many of the underlying social and physical technologies simply didn't exist, and would have to be invented over the course of the next 1500 years or so.

Why did they close the complexes and how did they deal with the loss of metal?
@veekie already sort of covered this, but basically:

Rome fell.

Why did the complexes close? They were overrun by Visigoths or whoever. The invasions tended to kill some of the workforce, and afterwards whichever barbarian king ruled that part of what was once the Empire wouldn't be able to ensure that travel remained safe and practical. Getting new slave laborers for the mines was harder, the usual solution of using convicts instead of slaves didn't work either because the supply of convicts dried up with the fall of the Roman court system. Getting supplies was much harder. Getting the products out of a mine and to market was exponentially harder, and it was this last that was most crippling because it meant there wasn't even any point in keeping the mine running if you couldn't sell its products.

Nor was there much point in running a facility like the mill at Barbegal, which was a major Roman production facility, one of many like it- others were ironworks. These were arguably the greatest industrial facilities prior to the industrial revolution itself, with water-powered machinery that wouldn't have been too far out of place in 1800 as far as I can tell. But without the greater interlocking system of Roman society, sooner or later the know-how to maintain such a mill would be lost, or something important would burn down and there wouldn't be resources or money to replace it. So these facilities collapsed, as did the industrial output behind them.

How did they deal with the loss of metal?

Well, Roman civilization collapsed and people made do with less metal tools and more expensive metal weapons and higher taxation by medieval warlords and aristocrats to support their use of more expensive weapons. And, in short...

Rome fell.

That's a big part of what we mean by the fall of Rome. It wasn't only a political transformation or a decentralization of power, though it was both those things as well. There was a massive economic collapse of goods and services and infrastructure, things which had been sustained by Rome maintaining a quasi-stable social and political order throughout the region, where even if claimants to the imperial throne fought each other, at least there WAS a throne and the wars were being fought by men who aspired to own the countryside they were fighting over, limiting their incentive to pillage.

What replaced Rome, at least in Western Europe, was a less populous and far more fragmented political system, where some important technologies were lost and had to be rederived, where access to literature was reduced, where all manufactured goods were more expensive and often cruder, and where it would be almost a thousand years before people began to once again construct on anything like the scale they had before.
 
Telamon usually is pretty... good?... about not going for full anachronism, but if we become emperor he might be okay with letting us set up a semaphore or other signalling network.
Just the other day I was asking why the semaphore came so late because none of its components seem anachronistic, and learned what did come earlier in much the same niche: the phryctoria, which used sets of signal fires rather than flags to encode letters. It was invented in Greece about four centuries before this quest is set, so you should be good to start buying up loads of wood to fuel all those beacons.
 
Just the other day I was asking why the semaphore came so late because none of its components seem anachronistic, and learned what did come earlier in much the same niche: the phryctoria, which used sets of signal fires rather than flags to encode letters. It was invented in Greece about four centuries before this quest is set, so you should be good to start buying up loads of wood to fuel all those beacons.
Huh. Was it a widespread system? I could see that scaling well and being workable. Pity we won't have telescopes; those would help.
 
Er, what problem is this a solution to? I mean, I suspect to a large extent this has already happened. Rome did a lot of what would have been incomprehensible megaprojects on the scale of just about any previous civilization other than maybe China. Some of their work was so impressive that medievals actually straight-up forgot it was even possible to do something that big and decided it must have been constructed by wizards or giants or something. They already expanded metalworking demand- and concrete demand, and so on- by a very large factor.

It's very important to realize that Rome was not underdeveloped in any reasonable sense of the word. Rome, like China for most of its history, was very thoroughly developed, up to the limit of the technology. The main reason they didn't have an industrial revolution was that far too many of the underlying social and physical technologies simply didn't exist, and would have to be invented over the course of the next 1500 years or so.
Not at all a technological revolution. An economic stimulus package.
What I gathered about the decline of the Roman Empire was that a lot of their problem was that a prospective politician pretty much needed to have some military experience(and by that I mean they need victories) to get anywhere, so when they were at war with some minor party or rebels, all was cool, but in the in-between cooling periods, powerful politicians moved to launch campaigns to seize land for the glory of Rome, paying for it with various short-term prosperous but long term economically or politically destabilizing measures, which they theoretically made up with war loot and lands to distribute, but the efficiency of doing so dropped the bigger Rome got, and so they were effectively borrowing money on bad war investments.

A pretty big chunk of the economy, as a result, is basically propped up by the military-industrial complex, they got really really efficient at scraping the barrel cleaner each time, but when you raise a legion you aren't really going to retire those heavily armed and skilled men anywhere easily afterwards, so the commitment was very hard to pull back.

So to pull them away from the brink...well someone has to do the not-so-glamorous work of pushing non-martial economic expansions. Of which metal was probably the one where the demand would be bottomless as well, but considering the manufactories fed the legions and the demand was insatiable...I would not be surprised if the civilian benefit from them were much smaller, especially if you consider that they'd usually be expanded in response to new legions that need more gear, so their expansions wouldn't really make civilian tools much cheaper or available to ease the economy like every other metal production did.

The hard part is doing all that without losing enough prestige or position that someone who went with the traditional approach would outcompete them. Gonna need some sleight of hand stewardship
 
So to pull them away from the brink...well someone has to do the not-so-glamorous work of pushing non-martial economic expansions.
Ahhh, I begin to understand.

Of which metal was probably the one where the demand would be bottomless as well, but considering the manufactories fed the legions and the demand was insatiable...I would not be surprised if the civilian benefit from them were much smaller, especially if you consider that they'd usually be expanded in response to new legions that need more gear, so their expansions wouldn't really make civilian tools much cheaper or available to ease the economy like every other metal production did.
Well, you have to remember that there were several tens of millions of people in the Empire; it was a fairly sizeable country in population terms even by modern standards. The military was a big driver of demand for metal, but there was definitely a large demand for metal tools, fittings, hardware, and so on.

I suspect that the Roman economy was mostly limited by agricultural inefficiency- the number of subsistence farmers required to support each person producing non-edible goods. There were only so many people in the empire making manufactured goods, and without improvements to farming efficiency, it wasn't possible to shift more workers to goods production and create a more active and 'stimulated' economy.

Also, agricultural technology is one of the few areas where the medieval Europeans definitely outstripped the Romans in some important respects (the horse collar, and more sophisticated crop rotation, for instance), which may help to explain why they were able to have a successful industrial-revolutionary takeoff eventually, while the Romans did not.

When you talk about pre-industrial societies, it really is ALL about food production. The majority of the population is occupied with food production, and any advance in agriculture has the potential for huge advances in other areas of society.
 
Well, you have to remember that there were several tens of millions of people in the Empire; it was a fairly sizeable country in population terms even by modern standards. The military was a big driver of demand for metal, but there was definitely a large demand for metal tools, fittings, hardware, and so on.

I suspect that the Roman economy was mostly limited by agricultural inefficiency- the number of subsistence farmers required to support each person producing non-edible goods. There were only so many people in the empire making manufactured goods, and without improvements to farming efficiency, it wasn't possible to shift more workers to goods production and create a more active and 'stimulated' economy.

Also, agricultural technology is one of the few areas where the medieval Europeans definitely outstripped the Romans in some important respects (the horse collar, and more sophisticated crop rotation, for instance), which may help to explain why they were able to have a successful industrial-revolutionary takeoff eventually, while the Romans did not.
More that I was trying to say that while they had very advanced metalworking, relative to the medieval era, so much of the metal went right back into the warmachine that it kept civilian metal availability low due to the army jacking up prices with a regular, stable purchaser always buying more.

i.e. a lot of the innovations were likely being slowed down because they depended upon resources which were artificially scarce as the army took up more men and metal every year, production increased, but only to match consumption increases.
And importing vast quantities of grain from Egypt didn't help domestic agricultural reforms either.
 
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If ever there was an Empire that could have industrialized, it was the Chinese because they had far more pieces of the modern nation state: paper, paper money, nominally meritocratic bureaucracy, etc. If even they couldn't do it, what hope did Rome have?
 
Not at all a technological revolution. An economic stimulus package.
What I gathered about the decline of the Roman Empire was that a lot of their problem was that a prospective politician pretty much needed to have some military experience(and by that I mean they need victories) to get anywhere, so when they were at war with some minor party or rebels, all was cool, but in the in-between cooling periods, powerful politicians moved to launch campaigns to seize land for the glory of Rome, paying for it with various short-term prosperous but long term economically or politically destabilizing measures, which they theoretically made up with war loot and lands to distribute, but the efficiency of doing so dropped the bigger Rome got, and so they were effectively borrowing money on bad war investments.

A pretty big chunk of the economy, as a result, is basically propped up by the military-industrial complex, they got really really efficient at scraping the barrel cleaner each time, but when you raise a legion you aren't really going to retire those heavily armed and skilled men anywhere easily afterwards, so the commitment was very hard to pull back.

So to pull them away from the brink...well someone has to do the not-so-glamorous work of pushing non-martial economic expansions. Of which metal was probably the one where the demand would be bottomless as well, but considering the manufactories fed the legions and the demand was insatiable...I would not be surprised if the civilian benefit from them were much smaller, especially if you consider that they'd usually be expanded in response to new legions that need more gear, so their expansions wouldn't really make civilian tools much cheaper or available to ease the economy like every other metal production did.

The hard part is doing all that without losing enough prestige or position that someone who went with the traditional approach would outcompete them. Gonna need some sleight of hand stewardship
Sounds boring and hard. Let's just conquer new lands, enslave the people and steal their wealth. It's worked for centuries!
 
More that I was trying to say that while they had very advanced metalworking, relative to the medieval era, so much of the metal went right back into the warmachine that it kept civilian metal availability low due to the army jacking up prices with a regular, stable purchaser always buying more.
I think I'd need to look at a fairly rigorous analysis of Roman metal production and where it went to be confident of that. Among other things, a lot less metal equipment was just destroyed or written off in ancient wars than modern wars.

i.e. a lot of the innovations were likely being slowed down because they depended upon resources which were artificially scarce as the army took up more men and metal every year, production increased, but only to match consumption increases.
And importing vast quantities of grain from Egypt didn't help domestic agricultural reforms either.
I won't say you're wrong, but again, at this point we're digging pretty deep into information we can't really be confident of without detailed analysis of the Roman economy and the specific flows of goods involved.

If ever there was an Empire that could have industrialized, it was the Chinese because they had far more pieces of the modern nation state: paper, paper money, nominally meritocratic bureaucracy, etc. If even they couldn't do it, what hope did Rome have?
I think that what screwed them over was the structure of governance as much as anything else. By the time the pieces were in place, China was ruled by a disconnected and distant emperor who lived in a palace where he hardly ever even saw anyone besides the harem and the court eunuchs as far as I can tell.

Furthermore, their state was so large and centralized that it had no significant competitors, reducing the incentive to adapt and innovate. And the Manchu dynasty in particular was rather preoccupied with keeping the Han population of China crushed down, creating further problems.

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that if China had fallen into another Period of the Warring States at some point in the second millenium, instead of being largely united except for any chunks that had been conquered by horse nomads in a given timeframe, they might have gone industrial after all.

I could be wrong about all this.
 
I think that what screwed them over was the structure of governance as much as anything else. By the time the pieces were in place, China was ruled by a disconnected and distant emperor who lived in a palace where he hardly ever even saw anyone besides the harem and the court eunuchs as far as I can tell.

Furthermore, their state was so large and centralized that it had no significant competitors, reducing the incentive to adapt and innovate. And the Manchu dynasty in particular was rather preoccupied with keeping the Han population of China crushed down, creating further problems.

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that if China had fallen into another Period of the Warring States at some point in the second millenium, instead of being largely united except for any chunks that had been conquered by horse nomads in a given timeframe, they might have gone industrial after all.

I could be wrong about all this.

The geography DOES kind of strongly incentivize selecting for stability, with such massive breadbasket floodplains and few natural barriers, the only true threat was themselves...until the tech overcame that gap far away
 
It was optimal in terms of economic productivity, and that had its own benefits, creating much greater technological flourishing that chained into still greater economic productivity when compared and contrasted to, say, the European Dark Ages.

My own feeling is that it's a matter of tradeoffs.
 
reading about the late 3rd century emperors including aurelian like 3-4 of them in a row seemed to die cause of trying to start a campaign against persia . Wich is better suited to a subordinate general preferably a relative so they arent a big threat.

It also wasnt cheap and it failed each time since persia had our advantage of having us being sucked in and logisitics being a thing that worked against us. And the empire problems werent more land was needed , it was more internal and external issues being a combination that finally overwhelmed things. Cause even succesful wars against persia showed that romans werent able to hold much land past their borders mainly cause each new territory needs new legions and at the start also needs competent managament aswell to avoid unneccesary rebellions and we probably cant afford that. Altough sacking the hell out of persia for the money might be worth the hassle.

And starting to rely on barbarian mercenaries was what killed the empire people cause by the 5th century the legion system was gone and they relied on barbarians for military power so please remember that. I know the lure was that centralized armies to avoid usurpers was a major reason but the main source of the legions are gonna be the east wich cant be stripped for western adventures unless persia is majorly distracted , the danube / byazantium legions and the rhine legions with british legions thrown in aswell i guess.

The main needs are to protect the rhine and danube frontiers and keep persia contained with the local legions hopefully militarily when u finish the internal issues and trying to reform the empire especially the economic side.

I still think that maybe getting a agreement with aurelian being co emperors is a good idea with us taking the west but maybe pawn off danube and the east to him with the senate or whoever taking italy to keep us out eachothers throat and to have a agreement what to do when one of us dies so the dying mans army doesnt rebel and proclaim another general emperor.

Basicly say that there is too much shit going on for one emperor to deal with effectivly and start the east / west split early but not really a offical split? And agree to help eachother out and try to govern togheter aswell but it is a unlikely route. This mainly works if there is senior emperor who creates the system .
 
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Um, I only know about Rome from Caesar to Augustus. And that was just summarized, what do y'all mean?
 
Basicly since 230-s the empire has been plagued with barbarian incursions and every okay general being proclaimed emperor and this has been going on for awhile and the last emperors death basicly triggered 5 emperor contenders wich in otl was won by aurelian who has 5 legions and is also in italy with us being a added factor compared to real life.
 
And starting to rely on barbarian mercenaries was what killed the empire people cause by the 5th century the legion system was gone and they relied on barbarians for military power so please remember that. I know the lure was that centralized armies to avoid usurpers was a major reason but the main source of the legions are gonna be the east wich cant be stripped for western adventures unless persia is majorly distracted , the danube / byazantium legions and the rhine legions with british legions thrown in aswell i guess.
Very much wrong actually. The reliance upon mercenaries was more a symptom than the cause. The root cause is the political foundation where to get Emperor position you needed military achievement and thus, every successive Emperor stretched the economy thinner and thinner to support campaigns further and further away, which, as they were too far to be supported, became independent bastions of military power that could threaten the core. And of course the same bloodymindedness which brought Rome to power to begin with: they could never accept defeat but must strike over and over until the foe was dead, or they were.

Mercenaries were life support. They kept the Empire going when it should already have collapsed.
 
What if we sweared loyalty to that guy with five legions? Roman Emperor is a very dangerous occupation, and assassination is the most likely cause of death for them. It would probably be much safer to just serve under an Emperor as a general than to be Emperor ourself.
 
What if we sweared loyalty to that guy with five legions? Roman Emperor is a very dangerous occupation, and assassination is the most likely cause of death for them. It would probably be much safer to just serve under an Emperor as a general than to be Emperor ourself.
Our troops named us Emperor. I suspect going against that would end with our swift death. Not to mention that there's no guarantee that throwing ourselves at his mercy will end well.
 
[X] Plan Firm Foundations
-[X] Take Mediolanum
-[X] The Spanish Dilemma:
--[X] Funds: (-450,000 denarii)
-[X] The Praetorians
--[X] Moderate Funding: (-400,000 denarii)
-[X] An Eastern Ally
-[X] Visit the Sibyl
-[X] Feed the Men Ourselves
-[X] Eat With The Men
 
[X] Plan Firm Foundations
-[X] Take Mediolanum
-[X] The Spanish Dilemma:
--[X] Funds: (-450,000 denarii)
-[X] The Praetorians
--[X] Moderate Funding: (-400,000 denarii)
-[X] An Eastern Ally
-[X] Visit the Sibyl
-[X] Feed the Men Ourselves
-[X] Eat With The Men


I wonder, assuming we eventually get some Research capabilities, how hard it would be to develop high saddles and stirrups ahead of time...that'd one heck of an edge, and semi-realistic goal somebody in this time period might have developed.

Also, definitely keep up the high hygiene standards! Even though we as Romans don't know germ theory yet, that cleanliness buff could be HUGE in the long run.
 
Even assuming this quest revitalizes, it's best to think of it as a single-character quest focused on politics and tactics, not so much technological development. @Telamon isn't big on just spamming ahistorical innovations in his quests.
 
Even assuming this quest revitalizes, it's best to think of it as a single-character quest focused on politics and tactics, not so much technological development. @Telamon isn't big on just spamming ahistorical innovations in his quests.
That's a shame, bc a technological trick or two, if justified properly, could be the difference between victory and defeat, but I understand.

...Would it be okay if I put together a small list of choice relatively easy to acquire techs anyway?

...

*scraps plans to make an armoured train*
Screw armored train, basic wooden rails with horses pulling loaded wagons would have done much the same thing! :p
 
That's a shame, bc a technological trick or two, if justified properly, could be the difference between victory and defeat, but I understand.

...Would it be okay if I put together a small list of choice relatively easy to acquire techs anyway?
Doesn't work like that. "easy to acquire" techs are easy if you know that they work already. They've already been discovered by individuals and promptly dismissed because they don't know or care that it works.

We've built to do this by economics, war and politics. Nothing terribly innovative needed in any of them either, beyond actually putting more effort into the economy than the army takes out of it
 
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