Kingdom Come: Deliverance

I didn't lie. In my opinion the minority issue is the one that people argue the most. And in my opinion KC: D developers are not nazis.
 
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Magic_Pal said:
I personally don't feel the need to do that. But in my opinion if you have let's say 100 people A 700 people B and 200 people C if you mix them together you have 1000 people. 10% A, 70% B and 20% C. But if you would pick random 100 from that the % would not be the same. You could pick 100 people B or 75 C and 15 A. In my opinion if they were more minority's it would be great but the lack of them is not making game worst. This is just my opinion.
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But that's not how actually demographics work, if you have an evenly or somewhat evenly distributed group?

Which you do, to some extent.
 
Magic_Pal said:
Sorry I don't understand. Could you please explain?
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Okay, putting it simply. If Jews were in fact mixed in with the other elements of the population, as they were, then your model doesn't really fit that well.

And we know that while a large part was in Prague, there were considerable numbers outside of it.

So somehow this developer has managed to mysteriously make a story where Jews are absent and Cumans are Orcs.[1] I wonder if this brand of whitewashing history might be deliberate, or merely extreme and unforgivable incompetence, especially considering the 'historical' selling point.

[1] There were likely fewer Priests in the area then there would have been Jews, but you don't see yourself arguing that if randomly somehow priests didn't show up at all in the story of medieval Bohemia, you'd be wrong to go, "Wait, what? Why?"
 
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The Laurent said:
Okay, putting it simply. If Jews were in fact mixed in with the other elements of the population, as they were, then your model doesn't really fit that well.

And we know that while a large part was in Prague, there were considerable numbers outside of it.

So somehow this developer has managed to mysteriously make a story where Jews are absent and Cumans are Orcs.[1] I wonder if this brand of whitewashing history might be deliberate, or merely extreme and unforgivable incompetence, especially considering the 'historical' selling point.

[1] There were likely fewer Priests in the area then there would have been Jews, but you don't see yourself arguing that if randomly somehow priests didn't show up at all in the story of medieval Bohemia, you'd be wrong to go, "Wait, what? Why?"
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Ok. Now I understand, but I still don't know why what I said was wrong. If you have a group of different types of people, randomly selected few would not always represent % of the whole group. In my opinion game world is a very small part of Bohemia kingdom. It is possible that this part just has that ethnicity. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that diversity is bad. I would like characters of different nationality, but I'm not disappointed in the lack of them.
 
Magic_Pal said:
Ok. Now I understand, but I still don't know why what I said was wrong. If you have a group of different types of people, randomly selected few would not always represent % of the whole group. In my opinion game world is a very small part of Bohemia kingdom. It is possible that this part just has that ethnicity. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that diversity is bad. I would like characters of different nationality, but I'm not disappointed in the lack of them.
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Because you're not part of the groups mis-and-un-represented as part of the developer trying to tell their historical fantasy in a way that appealed to their modern-day sensibilities.

(Also, again, that's not how land demographics work, at the very least it's not a sensible way to view things.)
 
Magic_Pal said:
Ok. Now I understand, but I still don't know why what I said was wrong. If you have a group of different types of people, randomly selected few would not always represent % of the whole group. In my opinion game world is a very small part of Bohemia kingdom. It is possible that this part just has that ethnicity. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that diversity is bad. I would like characters of different nationality, but I'm not disappointed in the lack of them.
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Jews are the same nationality though. Being Jewish makes them no less Czech. We have to make sure people know that; the way you phrased the above is very dangerous in that regard.

Edit; Jewish erasure is an extremely serious problem in general.
 
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Old Spice Guy said:
Jews are the same nationality though. Being Jewish makes them no less Czech. We have to make sure people know that; the way you phrased the above is very dangerous in that regard.

Edit; Jewish erasure is an extremely serious problem in general.
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Then maybe some of the peasants in game were jew but they just didn't talk about it ;) but seriously I'm not sure what part of what I said is dangerous.
 
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Magic_Pal said:
Then maybe some of the peasants in game were jew but they just didn't talk about it ;) but seriously I'm not sure what part of what I said is dangerous.
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The phrase 'Characters of a different nationality' in a discussion characterized by Judaism. A common anti-semitic refrain is that Jews aren't actually of X nationality, that they are second class citizens because they are actually loyal only to their fellow Jews. It's a common way of legitimizing attacks on us.

Edit; And you're again wrong. Jews were a highly visible part of society. It's why the king of Bohemia had to put laws in place to protect them, though they didn't work. We should be examining this sort of thing because it's interesting and a vital part of the history.

If you make a game all about historical accuracy it must be accurate. You can't pick and choose ffs.
 
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Old Spice Guy said:
The phrase 'Characters of a different nationality' in a discussion characterized by Judaism. A common anti-semitic refrainn is that Jews aren't actually of X nationality, that they are second class citizens because they are actually loyal only to their fellow Jews. It's a common way of legitimizing attacks on us.
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Didn't know. Sorry.

Old Spice Guy said:
And you're again wrong. Jews were a highly visible part of society. It's why the king of Bohemia had to put laws in place to protect them, though they didn't work. We should be examining this sort of thing because it's interesting and a vital part of the history.
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And this is about which of my posts?
 
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Magic_Pal said:
I know. For small studio this is a success. But for a big boys it would be just a small side project.

And please don't call people nazi ect just because they have other opinions. In my opinion this game is good. Not exellent or a masterpiece but a good game. And about all minority issues. This game is in 4x4km area. Small space like that could not include all types of people. For first try, this is a good result.
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I mean, it's pretty well established that the game director is a nationalist and all around terrible person. Nominally that doesn't always tar a work but it's blatantly clear their ideology informs much of the game because it specifically paints a picture that is not historical when history is supposedly the core advertising point. It's not that people are just giving it shit for the lack of PoC (and treatment of women, bugs, and poor basic game design/animations). It's due to the fact that the marketing has the audacity to claim history when it clearly is bullshit. It's not even a small marketing white lie in this case, it's a clear whopper of one.
 
Regarding the Cumans, our protagonist, the dude we are steering, he's illiterate at the start, right? We see that because we are unable to read any given book/script/whatever in-game until we learn to read.
Now follow me here, I believe it's the same situation like Captain Walker from Spec Ops: The Line, namely that we see things as the protagonist sees them. Walker had hallucinations even in the first chapter, Henry sees the cumans as monsters because as far as he has them experienced they are monsters. They burned his home down, they killed his family, he views them as orcs because that's all he knows about them.
 
Rakdos92 said:
Regarding the Cumans, our protagonist, the dude we are steering, he's illiterate at the start, right? We see that because we are unable to read any given book/script/whatever in-game until we learn to read.
Now follow me here, I believe it's the same situation like Captain Walker from Spec Ops: The Line, namely that we see things as the protagonist sees them. Walker had hallucinations even in the first chapter, Henry sees the cumans as monsters because as far as he has them experienced they are monsters. They burned his home down, they killed his family, he views them as orcs because that's all he knows about them.
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the funny thing about Spec Ops is that Walker's perception and understanding of the situation evolves over time

can you say the same for Henry in KCD?
 
The entire point is that Henry is the noble, sale of the earth hero of a Czech nationalist fairy tale, they would never have him achieve such a revelation, or indeed NEED to, since he already exists as the moral center in Vavra's crazed Nazi mind.
 
Magic_Pal said:
Ok. Now I understand, but I still don't know why what I said was wrong. If you have a group of different types of people, randomly selected few would not always represent % of the whole group. In my opinion game world is a very small part of Bohemia kingdom. It is possible that this part just has that ethnicity. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that diversity is bad. I would like characters of different nationality, but I'm not disappointed in the lack of them.
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Man, KC:D's game world should have a lot more Germans (natives, I mean) than it actually does. It has that one guy whose house you thrown shit on, nicknamed Deustch... which would be odd because the area was to some extent German-speaking, overall. The developers acknowledge that history by using German place names but then pivot away from including Germans almost exclusively as foreign invaders.

...And one guy (the only local German?) who is guilty of the crime of thinking a king known for being a lazy, indecisive fop perhaps should be replaced by his much more capable and driven brother?

He erased most of them for a reason and for almost certainly the same reason he erased Jews.

Historical spoiler warning: the king you fight to return to the throne winds up making a huge mess of things before dying, his brother becomes nominal king anyway but actually leaves the place leaderless on account of the nobility hating him and the actual big event of Czech nationalism has its roots in an austere and vaguely communistic religious movement that explodes shortly thereafter. A religious movement which successfully stands against the military paradigm of its day for about a decade.

But that isn't the story the developer wants to tell. Instead he wants to tell a much simpler, more direct tale that literally ignores much of the actual historical narrative in favor of a decidedly different (and definitely not accurate) tale of repelling Orcish invaders, led from Mördhüre. Its like, I personally wouldn't give a shit if the game hadn't been billed as much as real history but looking into the actual history, it isn't real.

(It is also a hot, buggy mess in ways they should have noticed given it had months in early access.)

As for why Vavra might not want to focus attention on the Hussites and their role in the formation a modern Czech identity: "Neither mine nor thine" was a definite thing they practiced, which the Communist government seized upon and made much of in their historiography of Czech people. Vavra doesn't like communists or communism very much.
 
So I started watching an LP of this game, as I really have no compulsion to buy it myself.

Let me guess...Henry's parents end up snuffing it. I can just see the typical "doomed hometown" fantasy cliche already.

I'm also going to guess there's a gratuitous rape scene (or threat of rape) at some point to illustrate how "realistic" and "mature" the game is (and to show how eeeeevil the Cumans are, natch)

And I suppose there will probably be a scene where Henry visits a brothel (or two).
 
The Victorian said:
Let me guess...Henry's parents end up snuffing it. I can just see the typical "doomed hometown" fantasy cliche already.

I'm also going to guess there's a gratuitous rape scene (or threat of rape) at some point to illustrate how "realistic" and "mature" the game is (and to show how eeeeevil the Cumans are, natch)
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Both of these happen in like the same 20 minutes so good guess.

The Victorian said:
And I suppose there will probably be a scene where Henry visits a brothel (or two).
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They're a fixture of the location and IIRC a way to restore your health.
 
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