V06C02 Uncovered New
I have been informed that Oscar took the train to Mistral proper back in V4 and that train was just fine.



V06C02 Uncovered


Cinder falls. She's underwater. Far be it from me to call for character death, but, drown!

Unfortunately for probably a lot of other people, she doesn't. I'd like to unthank Raven's ice coating for presumably taking the brunt of the impact with the water (which will definitely kill you).

Cinder's on dry-ish land now, but in no condition to make it any drier - or leave by going up. She punches the ground in exasperation, which shakes loose a crack in the rock wall in front of her, through which light can be seen. She pries her way out into the rain, then collapses again. It looks like daylight (if overcast), which raises questions of timing given that she fell early-ish in the night.

The passer-by sees a woman in distress and goes to see what help is needed, which is a laudable move, but the exact wrong one in this specific situation. When she sees the Grimm arm, she freezes, and it's too late.



Flashback to the RNJR+Q suite in Mistral. Nora might be going stir-crazy, but Weiss isn't at all happy to hear they'll be taking the Relic to Atlas, y'know, the place she tried so hard to escape. Qrow commiserates, but with Raven fled they can't shut the vault again, so there aren't any better options.

Ren points out the problem: Atlas has gone full isolationism. Qrow reckons that 'full isolationism' won't extend to cutting off Argus, and they can negotiate with the Atlesian garrison there. Blake points out they have Weiss as a bargaining chip, which only Blake and Yang seem at all enthusiastic about.

Ozpin(!Oscar) has recovered, and urges not dawdling, as the Relic is more vulnerable than it's ever been. Speaking of, says Jaune, what does it do? Well, replies Ozpin, it answers questions. Three questions per century, and nothing about the future, but no other limitations or qualifications at all.

Nora, being Nora, immediately wonders if they can ask for more questions. "They're not wishes," Ozpin chastises. Now I'm certain there's a genie in it. Anyway, Ozpin already asked it three questions this century.

"We'll be sure to keep it safe," says Ruby...



The safety of the forest crash site is questionable. Yang is vocally unhappy about being stuck in the middle of nowhere, as part of a split party, with some "defenceless old lady" to escort; to top it all off, her beloved motorbike declines to be extracted from the snow.

Maria Calavera has a name, thanks very much. She also doesn't think she's defenceless... except that her hearing and sight are failing. "Okay, I'm starting to see your point." Comedy™.

Qrow tells Yang to simmer down before she starts an argument that attracts more Grimm. Yang latches onto Blake bringing up that the Relic's doing enough of that anyway. Oscar agrees with Yang that this constitutes a lie and/or half-truth. I didn't think that the Relic itself would be the subject thereof. How ironic.

Ozpin reckons that "now is not the time" to chat more about the Relic, which convinces nobody anymore. He explains that he's not sure why they somewhat attract Grimm (his best theory is that it's related to "their origin"), but regardless he didn't want to make them anxious. Ozpin, I'm sympathetic, but you got in the way of proper planning, which led directly to this preventable poor performance. Weiss chooses now to hit hard:
"You know, I'm getting real tired of people choosing what's best for me."
Yang would now like to know why Ozpin didn't mention anything to the public about Lionheart. Ozpin could have appealed to not causing general panic all over Mistral, but instead minimises Lionheart's literal treason. Yang finds that unacceptable, and I agree.

The situation threatens to escalate to a shouting match as they walk further from the crash site (probably a bad idea). Yang protests that they're not about to follow in Lionheart's footsteps, but Ozpin shuts the whole thing right down by replying that's pretty much what Lionheart said to him, and many, many more before Lionheart. It's still all ringing a bit hollow, though.

Ozpin suddenly realises he doesn't know where the Relic is. Fortunately, Ruby saw it at the crash site and grabbed it. Ozpin asks her to hand it over, to which it is Ruby's turn for an armour-piercing question:
"So all those times you talked about having faith in humanity... that was just for everyone else?"
Ozpin protests that that wasn't what he meant, he just feels uniquely responsible for such "a powerful item". Ruby and Blake wonder why it matters so much if it's inert and will be for years. Ozpin starts going full appeal-to-authority before Oscar, fighting Ozpin for control the whole time, gasps out that Ozpin's afraid of losing his secrets and the password is Jinn. After some inner turmoil, during which Ozpin probably tries to regain control of Oscar and snatch the lamp, Ruby says Jinn.

Time stops, except for the characters, as is usual in fictional time-stops regardless of how little physical sense it makes (because it would be pretty boring if the characters stopped too). The lamp floats off a bit and emits blue mist that coalesces into a genie. I told you there was a genie in it. Is the episode title some kind of reference to her state of dress.



Cinder emerges from a side street in Mistral, having stolen the outfit of the poor soul who tried to help her (and presumably also their soul), to discover by news broadcast that she's officially a wanted fugitive. Fun fact: The English verb "fly" has two senses with two different etymologies, one of which applies here.
Article:
If you think the word "phugoid" looks strange, you're right. The origins of the word are highly amusing. Apparently Lanchester (who was the first to analyze these oscillations) wanted to coin a fancy name, based on Greek roots. He started with the English word "flight", which is, unfortunately, a homonym. From there, he stumbled onto the Greek word for flight as in fleeing instead of flight as in flying. The same root "φυγη" has come down to us in the words "fugitive" and "centrifuge". So a term that was meant to translate as "aeronautical oscillation" actually comes out as "fugitive oscillation". Perhaps a better word might have been pterygoid, which comes from Greek roots and actually does mean feather-like or wing-like.
Anyway, the broadcast says she and her co-conspirators were last seen at "Haven Academy, approximately one month ago", which raises yet more timing questions.

Cinder can't really do much about lacking an eye, so she's going to have to operate with her hood up. If the episode title is a pun, this amplifies it. This is almost exactly the random-on-crowded-street scene from the titles, to the point I'm now on the lookout for Torchwick's hat in the wind. Imagine that, the titles outright showing us something but still not spoiling it.

Eventually she comes to a spiderweb symbol on a post. Cut to her entering what looks like an eatery (titles working overtime to foreshadow this), where pretty much everyone in attendance is tattooed or similar with that same symbol. She can't meet with the woman in charge without parting with a fair amount of money, which probably came with the outfit.
"You're Little Miss Malachite?"

(stereotypical Southern-belle accent) "I'm Little Miss Gon'-Skin-You-Alive if you ever take that tone with me again. ...Looks like your life savings."

"It was somebody's."

"Cute."
Confirmation the money came with the outfit. Between the probable crime boss and Cinder Fall, I'm gonna root for the crime boss, if only because she's less likely to be plotting the end of the world (not guaranteed - see Torchwick, Roman).

Cinder wants to know where Teams RWBY and JNR have gone. Malachite reckons she can provide that service. Cinder's a bit jumpy, which starts an anecdote from Malachite about how she used to be afraid of spiders. Cinder guesses that what Malachite did about it was learn to kill spiders, which is a fascinating insight into Cinder's mindset. No, says Malachite, "the world needs spiders". Instead she co-opted them. Ah, so the spiders are a metaphor for crime. (Cinder finally looks around and sees all the spider tattoos.)

"Give us a week," says Malachite. Cinder is wordlessly insufficiently not-okay with that to make a scene. After she leaves, one of Malachite's bodyguards raises that they already know, seeing as "that big guy" (100% that's Hazel) already asked about them. Malachite says sure, but in the meantime they can learn who wants to know about Cinder. I'm certain Malachite knows who Cinder is, because there's no way an information broker hasn't watched the news for a month.



Maria performs repeated percussive maintenance on her incredibly overengineered goggles, but Jinn is still Jinn, the God of Light's gift of knowledge. She has two (of three) questions available. Ozpin, who clearly lied through Oscar's teeth about that, is distressed as the lie unravels; everyone else (except Maria, who has little context) is just disappointed.

Ozpin's Plan, uh, C? is to plead with Ruby to not do something unspecified but pretty clearly implied to be 'ask Jinn what Ozpin's been hiding from them'. Qrow says "Hey", probably leading in to trying to persuade Team RWBY in that direction somehow, but gets no further because Team WBY turn on him, Weiss literally holding him at weapon-point so he can't approach. Suffice to say that cohesion outside the team is rapidly breaking down. Qrow changes his mind, telling Ruby "Do whatever you think is right, kiddo."

What Ruby thinks is right is:
"Jinn. What is Ozpin hiding from us?"
Ozpin absolutely loses it and charges to tackle Ruby. The frame before he makes contact, all are snapped into their own featureless white rooms, a distressing experience (white-room torture is a thing). Fortunately Jinn's not in it to torture - she soon launches into, for each of them simultaneously, what seems for all the world like an illustrated fairytale.

"Once upon a time..." starts Jinn, painting the ground half of a landscape.

"There stood a lonely tower..." Well, it looks like one of many towers in that architecture, but don't mind me.

"That sheltered a lonely girl..." Ah, so the tower is lonely to its occupant.

"Named..." Named? We're barreling towards the scheduled end of the episode; the suspense is killing me here.

"...Salem." Hold the phone.



Next time: Worst Rapunzel.
 
have been informed that Oscar took the train to Mistral proper back in V4 and that train was just fine.

Oh shit, I forgot about that one!

Anyway, Ozpin already asked it three questions this century.

She has two (of three) questions available. Ozpin, who clearly lied through Oscar's teeth about that, is distressed as the lie unravels; everyone else (except Maria, who has little context) is just disappointed.

A common question here is just what did Oz already ask it. I always felt the question should be, are we sure Oz was the one that used up that question? I mean, we know of at least one person who had access to the vault...

On a more practical sense, this is where Oz's trauma over previous Lionhearts screws him over. The thing is, he didn't NEED to lie to them about the lamp not being out of questions earlier. If he'd said something as simple as wanting to coordinate with Ironwood and such before deciding to use up a question, it would likely have stopped most of them (Maybe not Nora, she was on a sugar rush) from asking if they could ask a question. Instead, he screws over his position, especially since he's in the head of a young boy who doesn't always trust him, meaning his lies have another angle of being exposed.

discover by news broadcast that she's officially a wanted fugitive

Honestly, how the hell she wasn't already on wanted posters on several continents already makes me doubt the Vale Polices detective skills.

I'm certain Malachite knows who Cinder is, because there's no way an information broker hasn't watched the news for a month.

Oh yeah, that's a 'who can we sell this information to?' moment if ever I saw it.

Maria performs repeated percussive maintenance on her incredibly overengineered goggles,

Hey, she's even worse off than Blake during Emeralds freakout last volume for not having all the information, and Jinn is... Well, LOOK AT HER!

(Blake and Yang are looking. Mostly respectfully.)

"Once upon a time..." starts Jinn, painting the ground half of a landscape.

"There stood a lonely tower..." Well, it looks like one of many towers in that architecture, but don't mind me.

"That sheltered a lonely girl..." Ah, so the tower is lonely to its occupant.

"Named..." Named? We're barreling towards the scheduled end of the episode; the suspense is killing me here.

"...Salem." Hold the phone.

And we're about to see Pyrrhas's favorite fairy tale animated! What a shame she's not here to enjoy it.
 
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Yeah, learning the backstory of Salem beyond 'evil lady who controls Grimm' probably wasn't expected, in regards to the lore Ozpin was keeping close to his chest. I assume team RWBY was thinking it'd be some scary element about Salem, or maybe the Relics, but this would've been a stunning swerve.
 
Confirmation the money came with the outfit. Between the probable crime boss and Cinder Fall, I'm gonna root for the crime boss, if only because she's less likely to be plotting the end of the world (not guaranteed - see Torchwick, Roman).
To be fair to Roman, that was Cinder's fault.

Cinder guesses that what Malachite did about it was learn to kill spiders, which is a fascinating insight into Cinder's mindset.
Well, she did just spend all that time training to kill Ruby Rose.
 
Oh shit, I forgot about that one!
It's OK, so did I.

On a more practical sense, this is where Oz's trauma over previous Lionhearts screws him over. The thing is, he didn't NEED to lie to them about the lamp not being out of questions earlier. If he'd said something as simple as wanting to coordinate with Ironwood and such before deciding to use up a question, it would likely have stopped most of them (Maybe not Nora, she was on a sugar rush) from asking if they could ask a question. Instead, he screws over his position, especially since he's in the head of a young boy who doesn't always trust him, meaning his lies have another angle of being exposed.
The key to writing good tragedy, I'm told, is having the terrible decisions clearly originate from the characters' flaws. Which makes this good tragedy.

Honestly, how the hell she wasn't already on wanted posters on several continents already makes me doubt the Vale Polices detective skills.
Not that we actually saw their detectives during V1 - that was more beat cops, if my memory is correct - but even those we saw didn't cover themselves in glory.

and Jinn is... Well, LOOK AT HER!
Must I?

And we're about to see Pyrrhas's favorite fairy tale animated! What a shame she's not here to enjoy it.
:(

Cinder: Murder murder murder murder...

But "murder" instead of "money".
 
Fun bit of continuity Lil Miss Malachite is confirmed to be the mother of the twins in Junior's bar all the way back in Yang's trailer.
 
Not that we actually saw their detectives during V1 - that was more beat cops, if my memory is correct - but even those we saw didn't cover themselves in glory.
If you're talking about the guys who racistly assumed the White Fang were behind the Dust robberies despite eye witnesses blaming Roman Torchwick and human goons for a similar robbery very recently, they were in rumpled suits and not uniforms, which says detectives to me. The fact they ended up being right doesn't make their logic better.
 
Anyway, the broadcast says she and her co-conspirators were last seen at "Haven Academy, approximately one month ago", which raises yet more timing questions.
It's the return of temporally desynced story threads! Given that per last episode the heroes are two weeks post-Haven, Cinder's story here is an additional two weeks (and change) after that.
The simplest answer, I think, is that there's a timeskip between Cinder ganking that passerby and her making her way to Little Miss Malachite. Perhaps she was laying low, perhaps she didn't know where exactly in the slums of Mistral the information dealer was.

"...Salem." Hold the phone.
I can not imagine what this cliffhanger must have been like live. The week between November 3, 2018 and November 10, 2018 must have been unbearable to fans.
 
If you're talking about the guys who racistly assumed the White Fang were behind the Dust robberies despite eye witnesses blaming Roman Torchwick and human goons for a similar robbery very recently, they were in rumpled suits and not uniforms, which says detectives to me. The fact they ended up being right doesn't make their logic better.

Well, it was white fang working for Roman, which never occurred to them, because they were busy being racist
 
I can not imagine what this cliffhanger must have been like live. The week between November 3, 2018 and November 10, 2018 must have been unbearable to fans.
Oh, it was fine - it was mostly full of lots of Wild Speculation and actually a lot of interesting commentary on RWBY vs Oz's old guard and such if I remember right. Now, for the Brutal Cliffhangers that I remember cutting the fandom open you have to either go back to Volume 3 (in particular the one between PvP and Battle of Beacon and then between Heroes and Villains and End of the Beginning were notably Batshit because they were two week breaks, after those episodes) or deeper into the future.
 
V06C03 The Lost Fable New

V06C03 The Lost Fable


So now we know that the hooded figure in the titles is Cinder. But, bigger things. Given the blue mist transition was characteristic of Jinn, I'm pretty sure the woman before the statue is past-Salem. Who's the statue? Maybe Jinn's going to tell us.

Well, Jinn's telling us something, all right. In a time of magic, past-Salem was imprisoned in that tower, and wished only for freedom. Enter the legendary hero Ozma (surely that name means something), the latest to brave the tower, but the first to to be motivated only by "righteousness". Because this is a fairytale, he succeeded.

How ironic, the guy who wasn't there for the "young maiden's hand" ends up getting it.

And then they lived happily ever after. Or not, because Ozma met a foe he couldn't defeat: illness. And Salem had a h*ck of a sheltered childhood, so imagine the scale of her emotional devastation when the only person who's actually cared about her in years abruptly dies, possibly the first such person she's ever seen die. Or don't, it doesn't sound fun.

So Salem went on a pilgrimage to the God of Light (Jinn pulling out all the ominous stops with "It was here where mankind would fall to ruin.") to request Ozma's resurrection. Light refused, citing the sanctity of life and death. Salem wasn't impressed.

So Salem went on a pilgrimage to the God of Darkness to request Ozma's resurrection. (Darkness rises from his pool with animations very reminiscent of the Nuckelavee, or perhaps Emerald's Nightmare Salem.) Nobody did that, because that was where Grimm came from; Darkness had never been pilgrimaged to before, and thought it sounded kinda neat. And so Ozma was resurrected. He has a bit of a freakout when he realises he's right next to the Grimmpools, but Salem's there so it must be okay.

Cue Light, who isn't at all fond of His domain being usurped. Darkness isn't at all fond of Light dropping in to rain on his parade. Light cites the balance and vaporises Ozma. Darkness objects that Light doesn't exclusively own creation or pilgrimage and brings Ozma back.

A fight between the gods, who switch from humanform to dragonform, nearly ensues before Light tells Darkness what Salem didn't see fit to mention: Salem came to Light first. Darkness apologises to Light and smites Ozma for the last time. Salem has an angry breakdown, to which Light eats her in exactly the same kind of way that Emerald's Nightmare Salem tried to eat everyone.

Salem respawns high above Light's little oasis and falls into it, Cinder-style. Then she reappears on the shore without any clear indication of how she escaped the water. She probably didn't; Light (and later Darkness in stereo) explains that as karmic punishment for her "selfishness and arrogance" she is now immortal, unable to meet Ozma again until she "learn[s] the importance of life and death". She learns nothing from this.

Let's imagine, for a New York minute, a world where Light just told her off, banned her from pilgrimage, and sent her home mortal, to live among people and learn that way. Might be a better place.

Definitely, for Salem has gone full suicidal and, courtesy of Jinn, Ruby has just had to witness it. Oh gods Ruby.

After it finally sank in that that wasn't going to work, Salem made a new plan. The gods clearly weren't omniscient, for she'd briefly fooled one of them and started them arguing. So she made it her (unending) life's work to kill them. To that end, she crisscrossed the globe, using tales of having stolen immortality from the gods (which she could pretty easily prove) to unite humanity into a single army with a single Nietzschean purpose.

Suffice to say that the gods might not be omniscient, but They are close enough to omnipotent. They are unimpressed and unaffected.

Salem respawns again at the feet of the gods in Light's domain (right where she just died [again]) to discover the army gone. She learns nothing from this. It is left to Darkness to tell her that They just genocided the entire fucking human species as further punishment for her sins. Show's over, gods are going home. Salem remains. She learns nothing from this.

The gods go home. Light just dissolves; Darkness goes straight to escape velocity, sideswiping the moon on the way by. So that's what happened to it. Title sequence foreshadowing strikes again!

But how in the name of Ursa-skin rugs did we get from there to here?

Salem learns nothing from this. She wanders the post-impacts landscape blaming all but herself while fruitlessly waiting to die (which not even the Grimm can inflict upon her). Eventually she winds up back in Darkness' old domain, still spawning soulless monsters, and has an idea that sounds pretty sensible in context. Take it away Jinn:
"If the fountain of life granted her immortality, then surely the pools of Grimm would finally take it away."
She dives in, a little less Cinder-style.

She was wrong. We now know what happens when an unstoppable force meets an unkillable object: an unstoppable unkillable object.

"And in time, she would find her adversary." Oh no Jinn what horrors are you about to inflict upon us.

Ozma awakens in a white room, and panics less now that he's done this being-resurrected thing three times. The God of Light turns up and lies by omission through His godly teeth for a bit before admitting that mankind is no more. Temporarily. In the meantime, the gods are leaving.

There will be four Relics - we know them - with which humanity can remake themselves. Figuratively, or literally? Anyway, if the Relics are ever united, the gods will return for the Final Judgement. If humanity has learned to live in harmony, the gods stay. Otherwise, everybody dies again, for good this time. Until that Judgement comes to pass, Ozma will reincarnate.

Ozma isn't interested. He'd rather die with everyone else and be reunited with Salem. Joke's on him. As Light explains, Salem will never physically die - but she's already died in personality. Ozma is undeterred. Joke's really on him. He respawns in the middle of a Grimm attack and helps fight it off - but he's a fish out of water. Speaking of fish, there are faunus now. I wonder what the story is there - it doesn't seem like Jinn's going to say. Also magic is gone, for all but himself - and "The Witch", aka Salem. Apropos of the whole 'remnant of the prior humanity' thing going on (which finally explains the name "Remnant"), some music:


Ozma and Salem reunite. It's oddly adorable. It'd be great, if we could fill in any less of what was to come.

Both, scared, leave out key parts of their story to each other. Salem leans increasingly authoritarian as time goes by - she seeks to supplant the absent gods. She has still learned absolutely nothing. "The hearts of men are easily swayed," says Jinn to tell us that Ozma went along with it. I'm contractually required to bristle a bit at the casual sexism inherent in that statement.

One of those statues looks a lot like the one from past-Salem's scene in the titles, confirming it was Ozma. Anyway, they took over the world and had four kids, whose clothing colour schemes remind me of the Four Maidens, which probably isn't a coincidence.

Salem watches a battle in a crystal ball, in a room which deeply reminds me of the castle she now inhabits. Probably the same castle, too. Anyway, Ozma is thinking that perhaps Salem took an overly warlike interpretation of uniting humanity. When the winter child turns out to be the world's third living mage - and no reason not to believe the others would be fourth through sixth - Ozma tells Salem the whole story. Salem says eugenically concerning things in response.

Ozma's next plan is to sneak himself and the kids out of the castle. It fails. Salem snaps.

It is once again time for michaelb958's Tangentially Related Storytime.

Castles are pretty cool. They serve as residences of the nobility and great places to siege. However, their main purpose was as the pre-industrial equivalent of fortified bunkers where entire cities retreated when great military danger came to visit - why siege them if they didn't do anything?

Cities are also pretty cool, being places where lots of people live, and interact with each other. The thing about having lots of people is that they have to eat, and prior to the invention of the steam engine, moving food overland involves animal power, which quickly runs into the rocket equation slowed with trees on top.

Owing to the point of a castle as a fortified bunker, it's not much use building one away from a city. So when you see a castle, you expect a city to be nearby. (This is less true IRL now that castles are obsolete as fortifications.) Owing to the food demands of a city - or even just the nobility in a castle, whom you can definitely expect not to work the fields for a living - one expects to see a lot of agricultural, pastoral, or otherwise productive and worked land near that. Which is why it so irks me that when we now get an exterior shot of Ozma and Salem's castle as they fight it out inside, it is surrounded by barren wilderness. Remember, no magic anymore, except party tricks by our two now-combatants. Who staffs the castle? How does anybody eat? And if the answer is 'magic', where is the city full of folks hoping for their own miracles?

(I've been stealing the historian's notes again, in case you were wondering.)

The castle is mostly razed in the fight, and Grimm flock to it. Ozma manages to be the last one alive - until Salem respawns, and finishes the job.

Wow, that cane's been around for a while. In both senses: it appears in the Volume 1 titles (long version as seen in Chapter 1).

Many lives down the track, it finally became clear to Ozma - if humanity were ever to be united, Salem had to go. Another life later, he hunted down the Relic of Knowledge, and asked it his questions: Where were the other Relics? What were their powers? And "How do I destroy Salem?" Take it away Jinn:
Well that's going to cause some anxiety and negativity in the party. Apropos of continually reincarnating in pursuit of a goal now known to be impossible, some music:


Fade back to Oscar(!Ozpin?) in the exact same pose of despair as that other incarnation as the resumed winter wind howls.

My threat scale caps at "it never wasn't too late to run". I'm going to need a new rating for Salem.

{{The wiki tells me that this Chapter (1) is the longest of all 116 after subtracting credits, which makes sense given how much there was to cover; and (2) was based on one of the oldest script drafts, which backs up my theory that the writers planned everything all along.}}



Next time: Immortal disappointment.
 
Oh i have always had lots to say about this story, so hope you don't mind if I make a bunch

Salem respawns high above Light's little oasis and falls into it, Cinder-style. Then she reappears on the shore without any clear indication of how she escaped the water. She probably didn't; Light (and later Darkness in stereo) explains that as karmic punishment for her "selfishness and arrogance" she is now immortal, unable to meet Ozma again until she "learn the importance of life and death". She learns nothing from this.

I am going to be honest here, I have no idea what the gods are hoping for her to learn at this point. Like, as you said a bit later down she become suicidal after the fact. She clearly has come to value the idea of death, so if that isn't what they want from her then what do they?

Salem respawns again at the feet of the gods in Light's domain (right where she just died [again]) to discover the army gone. She learns nothing from this. It is left to Darkness to tell her that They just genocided the entire fucking human species as further punishment for her sins. Show's over, gods are going home. Salem remains. She learns nothing from this.

Just want to highlight there was like, maybe a hundred people there tops and they decided that the proper answer was to kill Everyone Everywhere. This is absolutely a toy where the gods are evil themselves.

Ozma isn't interested. He'd rather die with everyone else and be reunited with Salem.

Guess that means no afterlife then, considering how he didn't know already that Salem wasn't there. I kinda wish that part got some focus because it could be a very interesting character moment to see how differently everyone reacts to it.

There will be four Relics - we know them - with which humanity can remake themselves. Figuratively, or literally? Anyway, if the Relics are ever united, the gods will return for the Final Judgement. If humanity has learned to live in harmony, the gods stay. Otherwise, everybody dies again, for good this time. Until that Judgement comes to pass, Ozma will reincarnate.

On a funnier note, there's actually two camps in the fandom, that I'm aware of, on the question of where the heck Humanity 2.0 came from. Some people feel that the obvious answer is that the God of Light, and maybe Dark, made them when they decided to come back to Remnant and give Oz this test of theirs.

As for the others...


Both, scared, leave out key parts of their story to each other. Salem leans increasingly authoritarian as time goes by - she seeks to supplant the absent gods. She has still learned absolutely nothing. "The hearts of men are easily swayed," says Jinn to tell us that Ozma went along with it. I'm contractually required to bristle a bit at the casual sexism inherent in that statement.

I just want to say, I do feel it is very important to highlight that Oz 1) left out the gods entirely and 2) left out why he wanted to unite the world. This omission does not mean that Salem was in the right for wanting to use force just because it was the most efficient and expedient method, but I do feel like if she had more information then they might have gone off on a different path that would have resulted in less tragedy down the line.

Salem watches a battle in a crystal ball, in a room which deeply reminds me of the castle she now inhabits. Probably the same castle, too. Anyway, Ozma is thinking that perhaps Salem took an overly warlike interpretation of uniting humanity. When the winter child turns out to be the world's third living mage - and no reason not to believe the others would be fourth through sixth - Ozma tells Salem the whole story. Salem says eugenically concerning things in response.

And another case of fans having two interpretations which are very funny in how different they are. This time the camps are 1) Salem meant that she wanted to kill off all of humanity 2.0 and replace them with humanity 1.0 since they can make that now and 2) Salem figured that if they kept having kids and letting them marry members of humanity 2.0 then eventually magic would spread throughout the entire population and they would successfully uplift themselves.

Oz's reactions hit very differently depending on which camp one falls into.
 
Many lives down the track, it finally became clear to Ozma - if humanity were ever to be united, Salem had to go. Another life later, he hunted down the Relic of Knowledge, and asked it his questions: Where were the other Relics? What were their powers? And "How do I destroy Salem?"
I suspect Ozma never quite thought up ways to stop Salem which wasn't killing her, truthfully. Otherwise he'd ask Jinn a few questions about how to successfully persuade her into... Not being a horrible monster out to destroy the globe. Alternatively he seals her away somewhere.

Who knows how RWBY canon plans to deal with the situation. I'd certainly be all for sealing or redemption, but neither are gonna be easy.
 
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I would guess limited assets, or Jinn not animating details she didn't find relevant.
Just want to highlight there was like, maybe a hundred people there tops and they decided that the proper answer was to kill Everyone Everywhere. This is absolutely a toy where the gods are evil themselves.
They were from like, three kingdoms, so it wasn't exactly a small group that was in on it, but relative to what the actual population probably was given an entire planet...
Oz's reactions hit very differently depending on which camp one falls into.
Salem not explaining which one it was to him because he didn't ask is a possibility. Not enough questions being asked, or answered when they are asked seems to be a common problem with these guys.
 
I am going to be honest here, I have no idea what the gods are hoping for her to learn at this point. Like, as you said a bit later down she become suicidal after the fact. She clearly has come to value the idea of death, so if that isn't what they want from her then what do they?
If I tilt my head and squint a bit, it's not just about valuing the idea of death, it's about understanding its importance. The way she went on to treat her death - as a persuasive tool - and the lives and potential deaths of her god-killing army - as acceptable losses - shows a lack of understanding of its importance.

Just want to highlight there was like, maybe a hundred people there tops and they decided that the proper answer was to kill Everyone Everywhere. This is absolutely a toy where the gods are evil themselves.
They were from like, three kingdoms, so it wasn't exactly a small group that was in on it, but relative to what the actual population probably was given an entire planet...
This is an army gathered from wildly disparate polities to (try to) kill their actual literal gods. Even if it really was only a hundred or so soldiers from three polities, rather than animation limitations, there's a clear pattern: anyone will turn - and coordinate - with enough Saleming.

Guess that means no afterlife then, considering how he didn't know already that Salem wasn't there.
Or perhaps Light just intercepted him on the way there. There really isn't much proof of anything.

This time the camps are 1) Salem meant that she wanted to kill off all of humanity 2.0 and replace them with humanity 1.0 since they can make that now and 2) Salem figured that if they kept having kids and letting them marry members of humanity 2.0 then eventually magic would spread throughout the entire population and they would successfully uplift themselves.

Oz's reactions hit very differently depending on which camp one falls into.
I jumped straight into camp 1 based on my knowledge of future Salem. Ozma doesn't have that much information (no future sight for him), but this conversation was spurred by a dispute while scrying a battle that she's implied to have ordered, so he's also primed to think of her plans in terms of violence.

Salem not explaining which one it was to him because he didn't ask is a possibility. Not enough questions being asked, or answered when they are asked seems to be a common problem with these guys.
Good thing we have a genie that answers questions! It's not like that will cause any problems at all!

I suspect Ozma never quite thought up ways to stop Salem which wasn't killing her, truthfully. Otherwise he'd ask Jinn a few questions about how to successfully persuade her into... Not being a horrible monster out to destroy the globe. Alternatively he seals her away somewhere.

Who knows how RWBY canon plans to deal with the situation. I'd certainly be all for dealing or redemption, but neither are gonna be easy.
Ozma learned that Plan A (he kills Salem) was impossible, so he ...just kinda gave up? I've heard enough thirdhand stories about the ingenuity of tabletop roleplayers to reckon that he's not being very imaginative here.
 
Or perhaps Light just intercepted him on the way there. There really isn't much proof of anything.
Why intercept him before Salem rebelled?
Good thing we have a genie that answers questions! It's not like that will cause any problems at all!
She can only answer so many questions at a time though.
Ozma learned that Plan A (he kills Salem) was impossible, so he ...just kinda gave up? I've heard enough thirdhand stories about the ingenuity of tabletop roleplayers to reckon that he's not being very imaginative here.
People with depression tend not to be very creative.
 
So Salem went on a pilgrimage to the God of Light (Jinn pulling out all the ominous stops with "It was here where mankind would fall to ruin.") to request Ozma's resurrection. Light refused, citing the sanctity of life and death. Salem wasn't impressed.

So, Light has no idea how to talk to a grieving widow. I call bullshit on her being the first person he's ever had to explain life and death to, given he's set up in a place where humans can visit him an ask for advice or boons, as shown by all the offerings on the stairs outside.

This part? It ain't Salems fault. She is obviously not thinking clearly. It was a dumb idea, but what happens next was cruel and depraved punishment on the part of the gods.

It is left to Darkness to tell her that They just genocided the entire fucking human species as further punishment for her sins.

'How dare you make me hit you vibes' on the scale of the entire species.

Darkness goes straight to escape velocity, sideswiping the moon on the way by. So that's what happened to it.

The idiot can't even steer!

The God of Light turns up and lies by omission through His godly teeth for a bit before admitting that mankind is no more

And not mentioning they're all dead because he and his brother are dickholes with no sense of proportionate response who jumped immediately to genocide.

Oh, and what's this? You're going to return Oz to life, blatantly contradicting all your earlier comments about the sanctity of life and death, while also threatening more genocide if humanity doesn't live up to whatever standards your abusive ass is going to make up? And you don't properly explain what happened to Salem, keeping it nice and vague?

Light's an assnugget.

she seeks to supplant the absent gods. She has still learned absolutely nothing.

It's a bad idea all round, given the Grimm in her and the fact the assholes would likely smite humanity 2.0 for associating with her, but honestly? At this point in her personal timeline, she could probably do a better job than the two idiots if not for those two facts.

I am going to be honest here, I have no idea what the gods are hoping for her to learn at this point. Like, as you said a bit later down she become suicidal after the fact. She clearly has come to value the idea of death, so if that isn't what they want from her then what do they?

Honestly, they made her look foolish, so they want her to suffer. There is no 'lesson' to be learnt from this.

Salem learnt at least part of the right lesson. The gods are assholes

Just want to highlight there was like, maybe a hundred people there tops and they decided that the proper answer was to kill Everyone Everywhere. This is absolutely a toy where the gods are evil themselves.

Their toys dared to defy them, so murder them all!

I suspect Ozma never quite thought up ways to stop Salem which wasn't killing her, truthfully. Otherwise he'd ask Jinn a few questions about how to successfully persuade her into... Not being a horrible monster out to destroy the globe. Alternatively he seals her away somewhere.

You want the horrifying potential option? He did ask. And the answer was the same.

Of course, I also wonder if there's a tragic element to it there. When Oz asked, it was always 'how do I stop her?' and after the loss of their children, and centuries or even more of bitter hatred, Oz specifically can't stop her. But he's the one stuck with the god given job, because Light has put him in an existence even more cursed than Salems. Trapped in someone elses body, your souls grinding against each other, memories and personality bleeding into each other until you don't know where one begins and the other ends... How many people have suffered this fate over the centuries? How many times has there been a young boy on a farm, terrified of the voice in his head? How many people did Light do that to?

If I tilt my head and squint a bit, it's not just about valuing the idea of death, it's about understanding its importance. The way she went on to treat her death - as a persuasive tool - and the lives and potential deaths of her god-killing army - as acceptable losses - shows a lack of understanding of its importance.

Turns out when you torture an emotionally broken young woman with a horrible fate, she will NOT STOP until you are fucking dead.

Not excusing her actions, but the Gods still brought it on themselves.

This is an army gathered from wildly disparate polities to (try to) kill their actual literal gods. Even if it really was only a hundred or so soldiers from three polities, rather than animation limitations, there's a clear pattern: anyone will turn - and coordinate - with enough Saleming.

These bastards don't deserve to be followed. I wonder how many other people had been hurt by divine bullshit before Salem came along and showed that the gods can just 'cut someone out of the cycle of death' if they feel like it.
 
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I jumped straight into camp 1 based on my knowledge of future Salem. Ozma doesn't have that much information (no future sight for him), but this conversation was spurred by a dispute while scrying a battle that she's implied to have ordered, so he's also primed to think of her plans in terms of violence.

Hey now, they Both agreed to becoming conquerors and framing themselves as immortal god kings.

Though yes it was absolutely Salem's idea to go to war in the first place and that probably is why Oz himself appears to be in camp 1.

This is an army gathered from wildly disparate polities to (try to) kill their actual literal gods. Even if it really was only a hundred or so soldiers from three polities, rather than animation limitations, there's a clear pattern: anyone will turn - and coordinate - with enough Saleming.

That's still genocide though. And again we have to remember, they killed Everyone everyone. Even people who lived away from the kingdoms and had no idea Salem existed. Even the little kids. Even the babies.

Even if one does accept the idea that Salem could turn any one, that just becomes an argument to put her back in her tower and away from everyone else until she learned whatever lesson they're going for here.

If I tilt my head and squint a bit, it's not just about valuing the idea of death, it's about understanding its importance. The way she went on to treat her death - as a persuasive tool - and the lives and potential deaths of her god-killing army - as acceptable losses - shows a lack of understanding of its importance.

I could see the argument, but again the tool usage only came after she tried killing herself in what is implied to be a variety of attempts and methods and was forced to finally accept that she couldn't die. I think it'd be fair to say that experience only lessened the value she placed on life, not increased it.
 
Can we also talk about the age old snag of a genie taking your words as is? Oz asks how he can defeat Salem not if she can be defeated. We can read it as Jinn doesn't say Salem can't be defeated at all just that Oz himself can't. The solution to this is hidden in her words the heroes just need to figure that out.
 
Can we also talk about the age old snag of a genie taking your words as is? Oz asks how he can defeat Salem not if she can be defeated. We can read it as Jinn doesn't say Salem can't be defeated at all just that Oz himself can't. The solution to this is hidden in her words the heroes just need to figure that out.

Yeah, like I said, with all the bitterness and trauma, it might be beyond him at this point, even without the lifetimes of depression.
 
Can we also talk about the age old snag of a genie taking your words as is? Oz asks how he can defeat Salem not if she can be defeated. We can read it as Jinn doesn't say Salem can't be defeated at all just that Oz himself can't. The solution to this is hidden in her words the heroes just need to figure that out.

He also didn't say defeat. He specifically asked "How do I destroy Salem?" Salem, the woman who is currently unable to die thanks to the Gods' curse.

I have felt ever since I first heard that line that we weren't meant to take it as an objective statement of Salem's inevitability but that Oz asked the exact wrong question and didn't realize it.
 
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