Hugh_Donnetono Presents: SV Mafia All-Stars (Or: A Crisis On Infinite Sus)

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hugh_donnetono said:
(The other main thing on this front is that I absolutely don't know how to process the sudden apparent shift from "sk needs to be immune to literally everything but the day vote to have a chance in super high power games" to "strongman immune roles are inherently bastard and should never be included without warning", like I am legit lost there)
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You put three levels of murder in basically. The way it goes normally is that basic kills kill if nothing interferes, but Strongman is supposed to be the solution to really needing something dead. This is why Strongman is usually a one-shot ability. Permanent Strongman means that doctors, jailers and bulletproof people functionally do not matter whatsoever. Someone being immune to Strongman means that Strongman fails where it shouldn't be able to. Was there any bulletproof in the game other than the 1-shot bulletproof offered by 99Lies and the SK and Strongman being permanently immune to being killed? If not then this would have been equally achieved by making the jailer a roleblocker and removing all mentions of Strongman, and that way nobody is surprised if someone survives the shot.
 
Nictis said:
Was there any bulletproof in the game other than the 1-shot bulletproof offered by 99Lies and the SK and Strongman being permanently immune to being killed? If not then this would have been equally achieved by making the jailer a roleblocker and removing all mentions of Strongman, and that way nobody is surprised if someone survives the shot.
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anders was permanent regular bulletproof, strongman was not immune to strongman, and also that yeah.
 
So, the Morgans issue has already been pretty well-discussed, so I want to talk about some of the other stuff in the game.

Class Rep, and the Town-sided roles added to counteract it. There's something to be said about Morgans making this role effectively Vanilla until a de facto endgame state, but honestly I have problems with how it could be counteracted on the Town end as well. As things stood, there was a bastard role given to Byzantine that was seemingly included for the sole purpose of *seeming* vanilla, but not being vanilla so Class Rep would fail on the slot.

Additionally, while Byzantine could not have reasonably known that the role hard-counters the singular Mafia investigative that enables Class Rep from functioning without kneecapping the team's parity goal (let's face it, we weren't going to just rand into the Vanilla claims without verification :V), the fact of the matter remains that the role still hard-counters the singular Mafia investigative that enables Class Rep to not kneecap parity. Even without Morgans in the game, there is a damn good chance that the role is functionally a Goon due to just never being able to verify a Vanilla.

On top of that, Town possessed a reactive PGO, as well as whatever Logos was to inherit the same PGO role (CBA to see exactly what that was but I know two Rhodes died this game). I can somewhat understand one being fine in this setup, but having the capability of two existing once again makes the potential of scum nuking their slots for no good reason way too high. If the setup were identical but without the inclusion of Morgans, our team setup is heavily incentivized to either divide and conquer, to which we probably eat a PGO shot because we're covering a lot of ground, or stack onto a single target to get a verifiably in-world claim, to which eating a PGO shot is several times more punishing.

I think there is definitely something to be said about the power of Class Rep itself, but with the amount of work that was put in to counteract this specific role, it was probably better off not included in the first place. At that point I'm basically asking for a fundamentally different setup from what we got, but honestly I don't find that very unreasonable given how we witnessed things go.
 
-Rosen said:
I think there is definitely something to be said about the power of Class Rep itself, but with the amount of work that was put in to counteract this specific role, it was probably better off not included in the first place. At that point I'm basically asking for a fundamentally different setup from what we got, but honestly I don't find that very unreasonable given how we witnessed things go.
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Yup, pretty much. Like I said - class rep was always The Other Issue. Not as obvious as Morgans cuz you died immediately, except by the shape of your absence, but arguably nearly as damning. 100% agree that trying to balance cultafia was always a fool's errand.
 
-Rosen said:
On top of that, Town possessed a reactive PGO, as well as whatever Logos was to inherit the same PGO role (CBA to see exactly what that was but I know two Rhodes died this game). I can somewhat understand one being fine in this setup, but having the capability of two existing once again makes the potential of scum nuking their slots for no good reason way too high. If the setup were identical but without the inclusion of Morgans, our team setup is heavily incentivized to either divide and conquer, to which we probably eat a PGO shot because we're covering a lot of ground, or stack onto a single target to get a verifiably in-world claim, to which eating a PGO shot is several times more punishing.
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but yeah also this, there's a reason the archdemon specifically called out the lesser devil for including both rhodes and a reactive backup. Like everything, I didn't think through what would happen if rhodes died first, though in my defense dying first was gonna mean he didn't end up getting any shots off 99% of the time lol
 
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