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Fate: The Emiya Family Quest

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veekie said:
In this case, strike fast or not at all. Jail is the crazy prepared type, but he had JUST started...so he doesn't have any networks, robot armies, cyborg girls, etc yet.

Give him a year and you'd see the difficulty ramp up each year. The combat cyborgs fortunately won't be a problem for 5-6 years minimum.
HOWEVER, if we help with Walpurgisnacht in the right way, we MIGHT also recover a ridiculous amount of grief seeds, or be present to influence a Madoka wish.

Remember 'Gretchen'(who is future Madoka) request is this year only. With that in mind, I'd personally go with:

1 Time, 7 Resources, and 9 Upkeep (Resources).


[X] Kiritsugu: Deal with the Kaleido Knights
-[X] Kiritsugu: A Lesser Deal
[X] Kiritsugu: A Favor for Gretchen

-6 Resouces +3 Time
Kiritsugu would be dealing with Walpurgisnacht, and buying time.

[X] Irisviel: Propaganda Manga
[X] Irisviel: Mangaka

+8 Resources
Irisviel meanwhile, would be spending all her time getting money to fund the family activities.

[X] Oops
-[X] Oops: Maiya
[X] Maiya: English Translator (Legal)

+2-3 Resources
I'm setting Maiya to figuring out the specific Opps,, and boost Home Knowledge

This gives us a balance sheet with:
Time 3
Resources 2

And if Walpurgisnacht works out, we MIGHT be able to solve the Time problem
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That's viable too.

We technically also have the option to replace the propaganda manga with Moonlit Classes, which doesn't get us on Iskandar's bad side and keeps Japan safer, but leaves us with 0-1 Resources instead of 2-3. Not sure if that's a fair tradeoff though.

Any thoughts on my idea of letting Yuuno and Shirou take a trip to England (avoiding London) so that Yuuno can use Avalon to summon King Arthur with a massive regional fame bonus and we gain the ability to stall the deterioration of Hayate's body via the power of Avalon?
 
justinkal said:
Any thoughts on my idea of letting Yuuno and Shirou take a trip to England (avoiding London) so that Yuuno can use Avalon to summon King Arthur with a massive regional fame bonus and we gain the ability to stall the deterioration of Hayate's body via the power of Avalon?
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Wouldn't the espedition be essentialy useless an the fame bonus would be lost as soon as they left England ?
 
Zaratustra said:
Wouldn't the espedition be essentialy useless an the fame bonus would be lost as soon as they left England ?
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It's applied when summoning is done.

The problem is paying the upkeep for an early summoning, affording the transport(though I suppose the TSAB gives us a free transport option if they're cooperative), and of course, getting the right Servant.
 
veekie said:
It's applied when summoning is done.

The problem is paying the upkeep for an early summoning, affording the transport(though I suppose the TSAB gives us a free transport option if they're cooperative), and of course, getting the right Servant.
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Yuuno isn't planning to do a summon right now, but he wants to be prepared so that he can do an early summon of a really good Servant if and when the time actually comes.

When you're using Avalon as a catalyst to summon a Saber, you're incredibly unlikely to get anyone except King Arthur. Who else would it even call? The Lady of the Lake? EMIYA?
 
Zaratustra said:
Yes, but why would the regional fame bonus stay after the heroic spirit left the region ? I mean, for example, if it worked that way, why would the Einzbern have done all their summoning in their castle ?
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Regional fame bonus is purely dependent on where they are summoned. Where they go after that is irrelevant.

The Einzberns were just plain cocky and wanted to do the summon on their own turf (so both Arturia and Heracles were summoned in Germany).
 
Zaratustra said:
Yes, but why would the regional fame bonus stay after the heroic spirit left the region ? I mean, for example, if it worked that way, why would the Einzbern have done all their summoning in their castle ?
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The spirit is instantiated where they are summoned for the home ground territory. You're basically pulling up the local version from the summoning, who continues to be the local version after they leave.

Also while more powerful, this also translates to higher upkeep and summoning costs(because you are conjuring a more potent spirit), the difficulty of transporting a Servant from their homeland to the battlefield, the lack of a prepared time and place for the catalyst that's secure enough.

The Einzbern castle has advantages in that there's a massive supply of energy available to the summoner to turbocharge the spell, and unquestionable security for dealing with a potentially unruly Servant.
It's possible that it's either an Einzbern Fuckup(which is completely normal) or they simply didn't have enough onsite mana to summon and upkeep Heracles or King Arthur if summoned in their respective homelands all the way through the transport process.
 
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In simple terms, the regional fame bonus is "make this hero not be nerfed as hard by their Class Container". It gets you closer to how they actually were in their myth.
 
veekie said:
The spirit is instantiated where they are summoned for the home ground territory. You're basically pulling up the local version from the summoning, who continues to be the local version after they leave.
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I believe I see it now, the bonus bonus we are looking at is not so much the regional fame one but actualy to manipulate how the sumoning affect the servant, like on if you summon Vlad is his homeland you get the HERO Vlad but outside you get the MONSTER Vlad ? (Beucause, to keep with the Vlad analogy, I clearly remenber it being an important point of how he lost his actual Regional fame stat bonus when he got in Semiranis garden)
 
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Zaratustra said:
I believe I see it now, the bonus bonus we are looking at is not so much the regional fame one but actualy to manipulate how the sumoning affect the servant, like on if you summon Vlad is his homeland you get the HERO Vlad but outside you get the MONSTER Vlad ?
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Basically. The regional fame affects the summoning ritual to give you something less distanced from their legend. Since the Class Containers of Servants inherently nerf them, being closer to their legend means being less nerfed.
 
Zaratustra said:
I believe I see it now, the bonus bonus we are looking at is not so much the regional fame one but actualy to manipulate how the sumoning affect the servant, like on if you summon Vlad is his homeland you get the HERO Vlad but outside you get the MONSTER Vlad ? (Beucause, to keep with the Vlad analogy, I clearly remenber it being an important point of how he lost his actual Regional fame stat bonus when he got in Semiranis garden)
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Sort of.

Spirits are mutable, so depending on where you summon them, you can get a different 'image' that your summon pulls into existence via the catalyst. In Vlad's case, he has the monster element no matter where he's summoned thanks to Dracula, but the national hero element isn't in his legend at all except in his homeland.

There's all kinds of factors involved, so the bit about older = stronger, homeland = stronger, etc, should be treated as loose guidelines more than hard rules.

Worth keeping in mind that in their homeland is also where you are most likely to find their banes or things conceptually related to their doom. All heroes fall.
 
Okay this makes way more sense, but I don't think it would affect King Arthur much to simple go England,the legend is somewhat homogenous and the saber container fits like a clove, perhaps with a more specific or misticaly significant plance , like the ruins of camelot or stonehenge.

Anyway, Personaly , when you consider that this war will have a nice amount of pure madness, I believe whe should, instead of coning him into summoning a servant mostly to help our family healthcare(again) we would be better served with some serious firepower to help deal with our biggest problem.So I would realy prefer that we pointed him towards a catalyst for Enkidu, he has time to go looking for it and the guy is not only the one true counter to Gilgamesh but also the only one who may be able to beat some sense in his head.
 
Zaratustra said:
Okay this makes way more sense, but I don't think it would affect King Arthur much to simple go England,the legend is somewhat homogenous and the saber container fits like a clove, perhaps with a more specific or misticaly significant plance , like the ruins of camelot or stonehenge.
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For example, Cu Chulann would have come with a chariot, sword and a goddamned Castle if he was summoned in Ireland, if you could afford the upkeep and the trip without exploding from prana drain.

King Arthur with the Home Ground boost might get the invisibility dagger, the drill spear, the completely unremarkable but pretty good shield, Castle Camelot and/or the whole Knights of the Round ala Iskander.
Aside from the problem of paying that upkeep
 
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Zaratustra said:
Okay this makes way more sense, but I don't think it would affect King Arthur much to simple go England,the legend is somewhat homogenous and the saber container fits like a clove, perhaps with a more specific or misticaly significant plance , like the ruins of camelot or stonehenge.

Anyway, Personaly , when you consider that this war will have a nice amount of pure madness, I believe whe should, instead of coning him into summoning a servant mostly to help our family healthcare(again) we would be better served with some serious firepower to help deal with our biggest problem.So I would realy prefer that we pointed him towards a catalyst for Enkidu, he has time to go looking for it and the guy is not only the one true counter to Gilgamesh but also the only one who may be able to beat some sense in his head.
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While Enkidu would be awesome, finding a catalyst for him would be nearly impossible.

The other problem is that it might not even be possible to summon Enkidu. The one time he is summoned in canon is Fate/Strange Fake, which is a Grail War that's FAR more fucked up than usual (and that's says a lot), and Gilgamesh expresses huge surprise that its even possible to summon Enkidu, because Enkidu is closer to being a sapient Noble Phantasm owned by the gods than to being a proper Heroic Spirit. . There's also the fact that he was affinity summoned by a wolf....................................

Honestly, the only way you can really reliably beat Gilgamesh is if you can survive or block Ea. The only things that can definitely do that are Enkidu's own Enuma Elish and Avalon wielded by Arturia. With a regional fame bonus, Excalibur, Rhongomyniad, a really high end Astra, or Shielder Heracles might be able to block Ea, but Heracles and everyone with access to powerful Astras are hard countered by Gilgamesh's Anti-Divine chains. Enkidu would also be hard countered by the chains, unless having them named after him makes him their conceptual predecessor (which would let him basically autowin against them).

Reminder that in Fate/Prototype, Excalibur is EX rank, Rhongomyniad is EX rank in Fate/Grand Order, and the Garden of Avalon LN implies that there's a hidden super mode to Excalibur that's powered by Gaia itself and is only usable against things that are a threat to Gaia itself. Yes, that means that canon implies that Excalibur has what is essentially a hidden Type-Earth mode.
 
veekie said:
For example, Cu Chulann would have come with a chariot, sword and a goddamned Castle if he was summoned in Ireland, if you could afford the upkeep and the trip without exploding from prana drain.

King Arthur with the Home Ground boost might get the invisibility dagger, the drill spear, the completely unremarkable but pretty good shield, Castle Camelot and/or the whole Knights of the Round ala Iskander.
Aside from the problem of paying that upkeep
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I get that there is a good chance of geting more phantasms, but you have to consider class compatibility and how their legend affect their abilities, Cu is a realy versatile one and would probably be a baddas Rider ,who tend to get many NPs, but at he same time probably wouldn't realy be able to pull a whole castle unles he was a Caster, since I doubt he carried the thing with him.
On the vein on how their legend affect then I don't realy see how Nasu Artur could ever have a shield (Because Avalon), and as a distant king who ended up betrayed by half of his closest knights is among the last guys I would expect to pull a Iskander (whose power is realy an exception among exceptions)

justinkal said:
While Enkidu would be awesome, finding a catalyst for him would be nearly impossible.

The other problem is that it might not even be possible to summon Enkidu. The one time he is summoned in canon is Fate/Strange Fake, which is a Grail War that's FAR more fucked up than usual (and that's says a lot), and Gilgamesh expresses huge surprise that its even possible to summon Enkidu, because Enkidu is closer to being a sapient Noble Phantasm owned by the gods than to being a proper Heroic Spirit. . There's also the fact that he was affinity summoned by a wolf....................................
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On the catalyst side I believe anything related to Gilgamesh legend should work, the grail system does not summon two of the same servant, so with Gil around it should defaut to Enkidu, and if we would like soething more specific, mud form the river where he was buried should work.

On the need of the system be a bit fucked up, considering how our fourth war ended up, and the fact the sixth be giving signe of being of working on the same vein I believe we are covered way more than we could ever need on this department, don't you ?

justinkal said:
Enkidu would also be hard countered by the chains, unless having them named after him makes him their conceptual predecessor (which would let him basically autowin against them).
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Enkidu is completely unafected by the chains, as a weapon of the gods he may possess anti-divine properties, but he doesn't have a drop of actual divinity on him.
 
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Zaratustra said:
On the need of the system be a bit fucked up, considering how our fourth war ended up, and the fact the sixth be giving signe of being of working on the same vein I believe we are covered way more than we could ever need on this department, don't you ?
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No, the grail in Strange Fake is still more fucked up than this. For starters, the war is in California, the Saber class doesn't exist, an AU version of the protagonist of Fate/Prototype gets an irregularly summoned Saber anyways, Rider is Pale Rider/Pestilence/personification of disease plagues, and in addition to the traditional seven classes, there's also a True Archer, True Rider, and True Assassin, in the same sense that Heaven's Feel has a True Assassin.
 
Zaratustra said:
On the catalyst side I believe anything related to Gilgamesh legend should work, the grail system does not summon two of the same servant, so with Gil around it should defaut to Enkidu, and if we would like soething more specific, mud form the river where he was buried should work.
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It doesn't summon two of the same Class. We could still end up with Prototype Gil if we use a Gil catalyst.
 
Zaratustra said:
I get that there is a good chance of geting more phantasms, but you have to consider class compatibility and how their legend affect their abilities, Cu is a realy versatile one and would probably be a baddas Rider ,who tend to get many NPs, but at he same time probably wouldn't realy be able to pull a whole castle unles he was a Caster, since I doubt he carried the thing with him.
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It's word of Nasu, that even summoned as Lancer he'd get his castle and chariot in Ireland. Whether that's reliable or not depends on you.

Note that his Runecraft skill is actually higher than Gilles' magical ability in F/Z and pretty much all magi involved...except he's a battlefreak musclehead.

Zaratustra said:
On the catalyst side I believe anything related to Gilgamesh legend should work, the grail system does not summon two of the same servant, so with Gil around it should defaut to Enkidu, and if we would like soething more specific, mud form the river where he was buried should work.
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Note a catalyst must contain substantial mythic thread to actually reel the Servant in.
 
veekie said:
Note a catalyst must contain substantial mythic thread to actually reel the Servant in.
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Yeah, otherwise any third rate magus could get a pretty damn good Servant by doing something like taking a trip to England and using a book about the Arthurian Legends as a catalyst.

Generalized catalysts that aren't tied to a specific hero but narrow things down a lot are a thing though. Examples include using a fragment of the Round Table to summon a random knight or using a fragment of the Argo to summon a random Argonaut.
 
justinkal said:
No, the grail in Strange Fake is still more fucked up than this. For starters, the war is in California, the Saber class doesn't exist, an AU version of the protagonist of Fate/Prototype gets an irregularly summoned Saber anyways, Rider is Pale Rider/Pestilence/personification of disease plagues, and in addition to the traditional seven classes, there's also a True Archer, True Rider, and True Assassin, in the same sense that Heaven's Feel has a True Assassin.
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He, Its kind of funny, Califonia only means that the grail was moved, we already have Avenger for a class who shouldn't exist but is there anyway, the fourth war did see the summoning of death himself and Heavens Fell could be used as an argument that we already have the "True" system, add everything else and I can't see our grail not being the more fucked up (I mean seriously we had Creed and Godzilla).

LostDeviljho said:
It doesn't summon two of the same Class. We could still end up with Prototype Gil if we use a Gil catalyst.
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Yes, the Grail normaly only summon one of each class (tought I doubt this will aply to the next war), but beyond that there is also a know safety feature that impedes the summoning of two versions of the same servant (otherwise everyone would summon Gilgamesh).
 
Zaratustra said:
He, Its kind of funny, Califonia only means that the grail was moved, we already have Avenger for a class who shouldn't exist but is there anyway, the fourth war did see the summoning of death himself and Heavens Fell could be used as an argument that we already have the "True" system, add everything else and I can't see our grail not being the more fucked up (I mean seriously we had Creed and Godzilla).
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In Strange Fake, the grail is also fucked up enough that summoning someone who was insane for their entire legend as Berserker causes Mad Enhancement to wrap around and make them become sane. That's what happens when someone summons a personification of the fear that Jack the Ripper could be anyone as Berserker, you get a sane shapeshifter with no default form.

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Also, it wasn't just moved. It was completely dismantled because people finally realized how corrupted it is, but then some people snuck in afterwards and stole as many remaining fragments of it as they could and then tried to MacGyver a reconstruction of it in California. That's also why they don't have a Saber class. The Saber Class Container was one of the fragments that they couldn't find.
 
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