Eve of Destruction Part 2: We Didn't Start the Fire

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I have a question that anyone willing to answer it

If Hubology Research Outpost does end up wining, what agent or dices(if the project goes to a certain category) will do? I know that if Janet Benoit assigns to it, her snitch meters might go up because she see scientists bad by not praying god instead playing god.
 
SargentRex115 said:
I have a question that anyone willing to answer it

If Hubology Research Outpost does end up wining, what agent or dices(if the project goes to a certain category) will do? I know that if Janet Benoit assigns to it, her snitch meters might go up because she see scientists bad by not praying god instead playing god.
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Hubology Research Outpost has the [Corporate, Charity, Construction, Science] tags, so we can spend SCIENCE dice, Edgar's dice, and Wilbur's dice (that's 9 dice total, with a +5 bonus to the project, so we can probably do it in two turns, if we're willing to stall our current SCIENCE and OUTREACH projects).
 
The Bird said:
Meant to post this last night but in regards to PA's effectiveness, it depends on what model we're talking about, but at a minimum, with the DoP's own Hazard Armor, they are in fact really handy to have: complete protection against both radiation and small arms, resistance against heavier stuff like energy weapons, massively improved strength, to say nothing about the other features...

But, to be clear, good does not mean unbeatable: as mentioned, stuff like plasma and mini-nukes CAN harm it, as can, more saliently, artillery. Beyond that, Power Armor is logistically very difficult to maintain and produce: the Brotherhood basically has to handcraft each piece, and the NCR in canon can't even do that, having stripped out the servos from the captured pieces of armor to use it as glorified plate mail. It's pretty telling that any time the BoS goes up against a more logistically capable force (like...Well, the NCR.) they lose horribly.
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This is kind of my point when I say people seem to refuse to acknowledge the very real issues with PA that make them way less practical and nowhere near as unstoppable as people keep acting. For one we do not have much if any infrastructure saved to speak of. We don't even have much saved knowledge to speak of. Meaning that realistically even if we did get PA that it seems that the whole region would not only have very few PA but may not even be able to maintain them due to both lacking infrastructure and knowledge.

Which means that based on canon precedence that even if we did have PA if the region ended up going against say the Rangers and Legion that they would likely get their asses handed to them like how the BoS got theirs handed to them every time they went up against a numerically and logistically superior foe. IN this case a lot worse because not only would you have things like the Legion being way more powerful in this timeline due to the changes caused by DoP but likely lacking way less infrastructure and anything else military because people hyper focused way too much on PA while ignoring everything else.

And yes, this is a huge problem because we only have 11 turns for this quest and that's assuming that the quest doesn't end up ending early. Worse is that based on averages that if we just relied on the security dice we have right now it would take around 7 turns out of the 11 we have and that's not taking into account that we may get unlucky to the point that that number becomes even higher with something like it being more like 8-10 turns out of 11.

And that's not taking into account that the people that may end up getting them in the end may not just be assholes as bad at the Legion and Rangers too. Basically fro what I'm seeing the people pushing for the PA project are absolutely refusing to acknowledge any of the very real issues and impracticality of PA at the moment and just keep focusing on the positives
 
Red Bovine said:
This is kind of my point when I say people seem to refuse to acknowledge the very real issues with PA that make them way less practical and nowhere near as unstoppable as people keep acting. For one we do not have much if any infrastructure saved to speak of. We don't even have much saved knowledge to speak of. Meaning that realistically even if we did get PA that it seems that the whole region would not only have very few PA but may not even be able to maintain them due to both lacking infrastructure and knowledge.
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I think you're missing the point of the project. It's effect isn't "Louisiana gets Power Armor"; Power Armor is already present in the entire county (the Engineering Workshop isn't just for Louisiana, it's meant to supply the DoP with Power Armor across the country). The effect is "Louisiana has a facility to make/maintain Power Armor post-war." Which, as Bird pointed out, is something that only the BoS can pull off in any notable way.

Red Bovine said:
And that's not taking into account that the people that may end up getting them in the end may not just be assholes as bad at the Legion and Rangers too. Basically fro what I'm seeing the people pushing for the PA project are absolutely refusing to acknowledge any of the very real issues and impracticality of PA at the moment and just keep focusing on the positives
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I mean, sure, but that's true of literally everything we build. How do we know a data vault won't make a worse Institute, or that a Burgertorium won't be used to host a slave ring? We don't know, but the infrastructure existing means a faction would be able to fight off outside forces like the Texas Rangers or Caesar's Legion.
 
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chellewalker said:
I think you're missing the point of the project. It's effect isn't "Louisiana gets Power Armor"; Power Armor is already present in the entire county (the Engineering Workshop isn't just for Louisiana, it's meant to supply the DoP with Power Armor across the country). The effect is "Louisiana has a facility to make/maintain Power Armor post-war." Which, as Bird pointed out, is something that only the BoS can pull off in any notable way.
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And again, you aren't taking into account if some asshole ends up taking control of it and uses PA to oppress everyone else. Or it ending up damaged, like several of our projects in the previous quests in FOTW's, or even destroyed post war
chellewalker said:
I mean, sure, but that's true of literally everything we build. How do we know a data vault won't make a worse Institute, or that a Burgertorium won't be used to host a slave ring? We don't know, but the infrastructure existing means a faction would be able to fight off outside forces like the Texas Rangers or Caesar's Legion.
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The biggest issue I see with the PA project is that it's a putting all your eggs in one basket situation while also taking up way more resources than needed at the moment. For example if the Data Vault's or Burgertorium end up going sideways than it's not that bad because they aren't long projects and thus let us do far more projects not just because of far lower progress but because doing said projects also give us more dice to work with for other projects and infrastructure.

And while some say we aren't using our security dice at the moment that's not really true and in fact may change. Heck, people have talked about taking some Project Turtle stages for funding.

Basically at the moment it seems like it's just want too costly and resource and time expensive at the moment. Especially since it' so time consuming that it may be too late to do much if it ends up biting us in the ass. Which is made a lot worse since due to the PA project taking all the security dice the locals may not be able to defend themselves from potentially hostile PA using asshole factions. Having PA also doesn't mean much if we don't even have much infrastructure or people for them to be protected by them even if it turns out fine.

Thinking about it it seems like it would make way more sense for people to just talk about taking the project later when we have more military dice and dice in general so that it doesn't take nearly as many resources as it does when we are literally just starting out and have next to no resources, funding or dice.
 
I simply think that Power Armour is cool, and would like to spend dice on something I know I want to see the results of rather than save them for other projects I may or may not care about.
 
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chellewalker said:
I think you're missing the point of the project. It's effect isn't "Louisiana gets Power Armor"; Power Armor is already present in the entire county (the Engineering Workshop isn't just for Louisiana, it's meant to supply the DoP with Power Armor across the country). The effect is "Louisiana has a facility to make/maintain Power Armor post-war." Which, as Bird pointed out, is something that only the BoS can pull off in any notable way.
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You're assuming that just because the state has a power armor factory that the ability to make and maintain it will survive the bombs. And considering everyone but the Brotherhood and Enclave, forget or lost the ability I think it's quite likely that it will be lost here as well. At least without another large investment to safeguard supplies and personnel.
 
Eldon said:
You're assuming that just because the state has a power armor factory that the ability to make and maintain it will survive the bombs. And considering everyone but the Brotherhood and Enclave, forget or lost the ability I think it's quite likely that it will be lost here as well. At least without another large investment to safeguard supplies and personnel.
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Well... no? The entire selling point of the project is that it can do that; it's a factory that has everything a civilization needs to build and maintain Power Armor. The BoS lives out of hardened bunkers, which is good for turtling like they like to do, but it's why they don't have the factories to build their Power Armor at a larger scale. Like, there are arguments against the Power Armor Factory I can understand (though not agree with), but "it doesn't do the one thing it's designed for" is a bit of a weird claim to me.
 
chellewalker said:
Well... no? The entire selling point of the project is that it can do that; it's a factory that has everything a civilization needs to build and maintain Power Armor. The BoS lives out of hardened bunkers, which is good for turtling like they like to do, but it's why they don't have the factories to build their Power Armor at a larger scale. Like, there are arguments against the Power Armor Factory I can understand (though not agree with), but "it doesn't do the one thing it's designed for" is a bit of a weird claim to me.
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What I am saying is there are other Power armor factories in America, but post war it seems none of them are operational or usable as no one is capable of making power armor in that way. So assuming our power armor factory will somehow be able to make and maintain power armor post war when it seems that all the other factories are unable to seems optimistic.
 
[X] Power Armor Engineering Workshop [Department of Preservation]
[X] Hubology Research Outpost [Hubology]
[X] ACME Burgertorium Project [ACME]
 
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We don't have any good options here. I tend to lean on any option that might improve local conditions, but... well... environmental degradation is a pretty big part of the welfare of a locality. Which the burgertorium, the only explicitly economic option, will do. I mean, I don't even know if ACME will give the jobs to the locals, or if they'll bring in their own "specialists" from even poorer parts of the FUSA.

Also, it'll piss off Skully, probably. That's probably going to be its most dangerous consequence, to Edgar personally, anyway. Skully doesn't seem like the kind of guy who develops anti-corporation leanings for ideological reasons. The company has definitely hurt him, personally, somehow. Or---that's just my guess, anyway.

The power armor option seems morally neutral, but will take a long time to finish, requiring too much investment. We need those die for other things---BRAIN projects, so our subordinates don't try to get us arrested or hobble our progress, local mandates. Personal projects, like Edgar's gorillas. Whatever Doc Warney has cooking (heh) for us. And for just 1 more security die? 700 points just sounds like too much for too little gain.

I know I spent this post talking about cons to these two options, but honestly, I'd rather deal with those consequences than the ones we'd get from inviting religious fanatics, or building an internment camp, or funding a facility to indoctrinate orphans. I just think it's important to have a good grasp of what Edgar's going into. That being said...

[X] ACME Burgertorium Project [ACME]
[X] Power Armor Engineering Workshop [Department of Preservation]
 
chellewalker said:
Well... no? The entire selling point of the project is that it can do that; it's a factory that has everything a civilization needs to build and maintain Power Armor. The BoS lives out of hardened bunkers, which is good for turtling like they like to do, but it's why they don't have the factories to build their Power Armor at a larger scale. Like, there are arguments against the Power Armor Factory I can understand (though not agree with), but "it doesn't do the one thing it's designed for" is a bit of a weird claim to me.
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The QM themselves had this to say:
The Bird said:
But, to be clear, good does not mean unbeatable: as mentioned, stuff like plasma and mini-nukes CAN harm it, as can, more saliently, artillery. Beyond that, Power Armor is logistically very difficult to maintain and produce: the Brotherhood basically has to handcraft each piece, and the NCR in canon can't even do that, having stripped out the servos from the captured pieces of armor to use it as glorified plate mail. It's pretty telling that any time the BoS goes up against a more logistically capable force (like...Well, the NCR.) they lose horribly.
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Like seems people are seriously, seriously underestimating the issues with power armor. Main one being that even with that facility that it would still be hard to maintain and produce.

Also as shown with the show just having Power Armor with none of the training or equipment makes them way less effective. And the fact that people are insisting on putting all our security dice on Power Armor and completely willing to neglect every other security option including things like freaking self defense training means that Power Armor is nowhere near as effective as they would be with proper military training and equipment.

At this rate I'm fully seeing PA ending up not being anywhere near as effective as people making it out to be due to people ignoring every other important factor like military stuff outside PA and basic stuff like infrastructure. Especially because there is a very real chance that power armor is not going to be finished until the very end of the quest if we get bad rolls.
 
Red Bovine said:
Like seems people are seriously, seriously underestimating the issues with power armor. Main one being that even with that facility that it would still be hard to maintain and produce.
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I'm going to be honest, it's starting to feel like you're deliberately misconstruing my arguments. I've already said that the benefit of the Power Armor Factory isn't "Louisiana gets Power Armor" (because , again, it already has Power Armor in the state), it's "Louisiana gets a facility that can build and maintain Power Armor post-war." Like Bird said, that's one of the three major hurdles of Power Armor (the other two being artillery and exotic weaponry), and the Engineering Workshop directly addresses it.

And, again, like I said already (several times now), Skulder can do SECURITY projects as well. Including, like you just said you wanted, Self Defense Courses.
 
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Eldon said:
What I am saying is there are other Power armor factories in America, but post war it seems none of them are operational or usable as no one is capable of making power armor in that way. So assuming our power armor factory will somehow be able to make and maintain power armor post war when it seems that all the other factories are unable to seems optimistic.
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There's also the fact that even with the workshop in place, PA need fusion core to work and ample supply to be useful in the long run since PA drain them like there's no tomorrow, one fully charged FC can only last for about ten hours as PA energy source before needing replacement and this things a long term nuclear battery by the way. Louisiana is a poor state in this setting so is doubtful that power cores will be in abundance in these neck of the woods.

You can maintain and even build PA but without FCs is just a glorified paper weight.

Edit: Commonwealth has a abundance of them because not only is a rich state that can afford them but is home of numerous tech companies that use them for they projects and Mass Fusion headquarters is there too, the company that invented the FCs.

I am in half a mind convince that the Commonwealth was the Silicon Valley of Fallout.
 
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Soberan 123 said:
There's also the fact that even with the workshop in place, PA need fusion core to work and ample supply to be useful in the long run since PA drain them like there's no tomorrow, one fully charged FC can only last for about ten hours as PA energy source before needing replacement and this things a long term nuclear battery by the way. Louisiana is a poor state in this setting so is doubtful that power cores will be in abundance in these neck of the woods.

You can maintain and even build PA but without FCs is just a glorified paper weight.
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This is an interesting point I hadn't thought of, but theres a fairly simple solution here with power peanuts. In part 1 of Eve, we saw that Power Armor in Appalachia was modified to run on power peanuts, and we saw in the opening chapter of part 2 that at least some cars run on the stuff as well. New Alexandria has a power peanut farm already (a farm we're building a CERES for), and after the Atomicrops Notes, one of the easier ways to gain Influence is refining the power peanut genetics.

Soberan 123 said:
Edit: Commonwealth has a abundance of them because not only is a rich state that can afford them but is home of numerous tech companies that use them for they projects and Mass Fusion headquarters is there too, the company that invented the FCs.

I am in half a mind convince that the Commonwealth was the Silicon Valley of Fallout.
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I'm pretty sure the MT would be the closest to a Silicon Valley equivalent, but honestly Fallout goes between "no tech at all" and "random tribals with plasma weapons" at the drop of a hat.
 
Eldon said:
What I am saying is there are other Power armor factories in America, but post war it seems none of them are operational or usable as no one is capable of making power armor in that way. So assuming our power armor factory will somehow be able to make and maintain power armor post war when it seems that all the other factories are unable to seems optimistic.
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you seem to forget that we have access to Laser Tower, Towers that are meant to defend against the bombs dropping.
 
I don't know why people are so insistent on picking something like the PA project right this very instant instead of waiting a few turns to give us time to build up. Like I get that PA is cool but it seems like it would be way more practical to wait a few turns until we have more dice. Especially since future JP's may be able to give not just more security dice but more bonuses as well.

Since even something like 3 extra dice for that project means we could still get it done along with even more projects beforehand.

Also something I just realized is if something comes up where we need to use security dice than it could lead to the PA project taking even longer to finish then initially thought since we may need to use those dice for other projects.

chellewalker said:
I'm going to be honest, it's starting to feel like you're deliberately misconstruing my arguments. I've already said that the benefit of the Power Armor Factory isn't "Louisiana gets Power Armor" (because , again, it already has Power Armor in the state), it's "Louisiana gets a facility that can build and maintain Power Armor post-war." Like Bird said, that's one of the three major hurdles of Power Armor (the other two being artillery and exotic weaponry), and the Engineering Workshop directly addresses it.

And, again, like I said already (several times now), Skulder can do SECURITY projects as well. Including, like you just said you wanted, Self Defense Courses.
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First off I know that you mean to say that Louisiana would get the ability to create and maintain power armor. I'm pointing out that you are also likely seriously overestimating the effectiveness of PA since without infrastructure, resources and knowledge PA become way less effective than they would be otherwise. Seriously, unless I'm remembering wrong I seem to recall you saying that the main reason that the BoS are so ineffective is because they don't have much infrastructure and resources. Things I keep pointing we should really prioritize over PA at the moment because as pointed out with the BoS those are extremely important for actual making PA effective.

Second again, our main issue is the lack of dice and time. We need Skulder to do the things he is actually best at along with his Brain objectives. The Brain objectives are something that are also likely to take a long time based on how things are currently going. We also need him to do projects to unlock other communities for us to work on. Heck, I recall it being brought up that we could improve the states Native American communities to help deal with the Rangers and Legion from Texas and Oklahoma.

chellewalker said:
This is an interesting point I hadn't thought of, but theres a fairly simple solution here with power peanuts. In part 1 of Eve, we saw that Power Armor in Appalachia was modified to run on power peanuts, and we saw in the opening chapter of part 2 that at least some cars run on the stuff as well. New Alexandria has a power peanut farm already (a farm we're building a CERES for), and after the Atomicrops Notes, one of the easier ways to gain Influence is refining the power peanut genetics.
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I also seem to recall that it was noted that it was extremely impractical to power PA using peanuts because they only last a short time and take a lot of them. Again, this is the exact reason I think we should focus more on infrastructure and getting more dice to use to build things up for now.
 
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