Winged_One²
SACQ Tablemaster
- Location
- Germany
It also has worse leverage.
No. Bad. No walking fire. Standing or kneeling fire from the shoulder, that's what it's for.
Small Arms Commission Quest II: I swear I won't just wander off again edition.
- Thread starter NothingNow
- Start date
- Original
Well, we'll see if the troops prefer this charging handle or the old one - it shouldn't be too hard to ask Holl to revert the charging handle prior to adopting the weapon if they actually want the old one back.
Well, the fore-grip would help with those too, and walking fire was something that the troops expressly noted that the 875.1 was worse at then the vz. 70, so clearly it's something the troops will be trying to do with LMGs, so acquiring weapons with that constraint in mind is important.
Winged_One²
SACQ Tablemaster
- Location
- Germany
That's because the guy who wrote the LMG doctrine is a bloody idiot and should be removed from his position at the nearest opportunity.
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
Maybe.
Your lack of bushcraft disturbs me. That "click" isn't a concern, because people on a patrol are making a fuckload of noise if they're moving. Also walking fire is bad and you should feel bad.
1), I recall having heard (possibly appocryphal/not actually a thing) that what I considered possible actually happened in Afghanistan when a group of Marines ambushed a group of Taliban fighters, and 2), walking fire is something our troops are already doing, so until that doctrine changes, we should at least try to not make it harder to use the LMGs the way the doctrine folks want them to be used. The fore-grip will also help with firing from the shoulder when not walking anyways.
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
Yeah if you "heard" something without a source then it's bullshit. Ambushes in Afghanistan are generally conducted at something like a hundred to three hundred meters, if not much further. If it was 'nam I might think about believe it, maybe, but probably not.
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
It's about as factual as the Garand ping afaik.
Which is to say it's probably not really a problem but the sort of thing people do legitimately become concerned by.
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
going to do a tally to bump this, and see if anyone else has ideas:
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
[X] Plan To Rule The Heavens
-[X] Test modified entrants versus whatever old guns you have from earlier, except the Rivkes, which will be put in a box to be mailed to Uncle Gunnysack
-[X] Test light machine guns on a course of 800m with a pause for firing every ten seconds or 50 meters, whichever is shorter
-[X] Test automatic rifles versus old data on accuracy and reliablity tests, but test new rifles simultaneously against old rifles on all other tests.
-[X] Test modified entrants versus whatever old guns you have from earlier, except the Rivkes, which will be put in a box to be mailed to Uncle Gunnysack
-[X] Test light machine guns on a course of 800m with a pause for firing every ten seconds or 50 meters, whichever is shorter
-[X] Test automatic rifles versus old data on accuracy and reliablity tests, but test new rifles simultaneously against old rifles on all other tests.
Last edited:
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
[X] Plan To Rule The Heavens
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
I'm just going to call this.
Rifle Contest/Light Machine Gun Competition Part VI.5 - Modifications Testing.
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
I had no idea how to do this and work happened, sorry for the delay.
With the vz.70 unchanged, the vz.70 will continue through without much in the way of new testing.
The Modified Rivkes was put through its paces and performed roughly on par with the previous variation. The action was a bit more reliable and user friendly, and suffered fewer malfunctions than the standard Rivkes with or without the higher quality magazine. Accuracy at 3.5 MOA was comparable to the highly worn-in testing example, but was significantly below the 3 MOA it should have achieved new due to the much heavier trigger pull. The gun was safer to drop than the original with the safety off due to the heavier trigger pull but identical with the safety on. Hitting a fleeting target or switching fire modes was made significantly more difficult given the placement of the selector switch, and the almost doubled trigger pull throwing off the shooter's aim. However, the newer rifle is easier to settle a new user on and has fewer quirks but is actually less well liked because of the comparative difficulty in switching between bursts and single shot even with the trigger lightened up.
Stoppages per 1000 Rounds
Standard Rivkes/Standard 20rd magazine – 3.1
Standard Rivkes/Improved 20rd magazine – 2.5
Modified Rivkes/Standard 20rd magazine – 2.7
Modified Rivkes/Improved 20rd magazine – 2.3
The revised Holl 875 didn't require much testing, given that the main difference between the two is the charging handle. While the standard 875 and 875.1 have a charging handle way forward by the front sight, the position is apparently more ergonomic and provides significantly better leverage than the reciprocating charging handle on the revised model and could be easily charged by mere mortals as opposed to Lindor Holl or an Orthopaedic Surgeon. Needless to say, as the newer handle has half the leverage of the older handle fighting the lockup of the action is significantly harder. Reliability and ergonomics were otherwise identical between the two models.
Comparing the 875.1 however was an interesting mix.
The Revised 875.1, featuring a vertical front grip and the modified charging handle, the Standard 875.1 and the vz.70 were put to the test in a three part course set up on a shooting range, which would include a mix of light cover, prone shooting, and a couple of hastily assembled pieces of cover. Namely a waist high CMU wall and an old refectory table with some plywood on it to serve as an ersatz-pillbox, as well as a brief walking fire segment.
The vz.70 performed well across the board, as was expected, and was easier to load while prone, although the ersatz pillbox was a bit tight if still serviceable for reloading given the limited vertical dimensions. This would not be an issue in most circumstances, as both real pillboxes and houses have significantly more vertical space.
Both 875.1s served fine in the braced sections, with the bolt hold-open keeping the Revised 875.1 from being too difficult to use. However, it was noted that the vertical front grip made it harder to place the Revised 875.1 on the CMU wall, as it had to use the bipod instead of just resting the receiver on a surface. Either way, the crew was somewhat used to the quirks of the 875.1, and would do something nicknamed the "Holl Roll" to exchange magazines without breaking the sight picture too badly.
The main difference in the performance of the two 875.1s was in the walking fire segment. While it was more or less impossible to fire the standard 875.1 standing, the revised 875.1 was actually fairly easy and comfortable to shoot with the bipod folded out of the way (with the bipod unsecured, it had a bad habit of bashing knuckles.) Magazine changes and barrel changes while standing were a bit easier than on the standard model as well because the vertical front grip gave a good amount of support and made it easier to keep the weapon held tightly to the shoulder while the right hand manipulated whatever needed to be dealt with.
With all this testing completed, further modifications or reversions can be made, in preparation for final testing and possibly adoption ideally by the second quarter of Year 15 of the Revised Kubachi Calendar (it is presently Year 13 Q1.)
With the vz.70 unchanged, the vz.70 will continue through without much in the way of new testing.
The Modified Rivkes was put through its paces and performed roughly on par with the previous variation. The action was a bit more reliable and user friendly, and suffered fewer malfunctions than the standard Rivkes with or without the higher quality magazine. Accuracy at 3.5 MOA was comparable to the highly worn-in testing example, but was significantly below the 3 MOA it should have achieved new due to the much heavier trigger pull. The gun was safer to drop than the original with the safety off due to the heavier trigger pull but identical with the safety on. Hitting a fleeting target or switching fire modes was made significantly more difficult given the placement of the selector switch, and the almost doubled trigger pull throwing off the shooter's aim. However, the newer rifle is easier to settle a new user on and has fewer quirks but is actually less well liked because of the comparative difficulty in switching between bursts and single shot even with the trigger lightened up.
Stoppages per 1000 Rounds
Standard Rivkes/Standard 20rd magazine – 3.1
Standard Rivkes/Improved 20rd magazine – 2.5
Modified Rivkes/Standard 20rd magazine – 2.7
Modified Rivkes/Improved 20rd magazine – 2.3
The revised Holl 875 didn't require much testing, given that the main difference between the two is the charging handle. While the standard 875 and 875.1 have a charging handle way forward by the front sight, the position is apparently more ergonomic and provides significantly better leverage than the reciprocating charging handle on the revised model and could be easily charged by mere mortals as opposed to Lindor Holl or an Orthopaedic Surgeon. Needless to say, as the newer handle has half the leverage of the older handle fighting the lockup of the action is significantly harder. Reliability and ergonomics were otherwise identical between the two models.
Comparing the 875.1 however was an interesting mix.
The Revised 875.1, featuring a vertical front grip and the modified charging handle, the Standard 875.1 and the vz.70 were put to the test in a three part course set up on a shooting range, which would include a mix of light cover, prone shooting, and a couple of hastily assembled pieces of cover. Namely a waist high CMU wall and an old refectory table with some plywood on it to serve as an ersatz-pillbox, as well as a brief walking fire segment.
The vz.70 performed well across the board, as was expected, and was easier to load while prone, although the ersatz pillbox was a bit tight if still serviceable for reloading given the limited vertical dimensions. This would not be an issue in most circumstances, as both real pillboxes and houses have significantly more vertical space.
Both 875.1s served fine in the braced sections, with the bolt hold-open keeping the Revised 875.1 from being too difficult to use. However, it was noted that the vertical front grip made it harder to place the Revised 875.1 on the CMU wall, as it had to use the bipod instead of just resting the receiver on a surface. Either way, the crew was somewhat used to the quirks of the 875.1, and would do something nicknamed the "Holl Roll" to exchange magazines without breaking the sight picture too badly.
The main difference in the performance of the two 875.1s was in the walking fire segment. While it was more or less impossible to fire the standard 875.1 standing, the revised 875.1 was actually fairly easy and comfortable to shoot with the bipod folded out of the way (with the bipod unsecured, it had a bad habit of bashing knuckles.) Magazine changes and barrel changes while standing were a bit easier than on the standard model as well because the vertical front grip gave a good amount of support and made it easier to keep the weapon held tightly to the shoulder while the right hand manipulated whatever needed to be dealt with.
With all this testing completed, further modifications or reversions can be made, in preparation for final testing and possibly adoption ideally by the second quarter of Year 15 of the Revised Kubachi Calendar (it is presently Year 13 Q1.)
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
You can just revert on either of them, and it's absolutely necessary on the Holl at least for the charging handle. Most of the complaining about the rivkes is from the new trigger being that heavy.
So, on the whole, I think I'd actually like to revert the charging handle changes on the Holl, but otherwise keep it the same as it is now and adopt the 875 and 875.1.
[X] Plan Revised decisions
-[X] Ask Holl to revert the changes to the charging handle for the 875 and 875.1, while retaining the other modifications to the design, due to the reduced leverage making the weapon much more difficult to charge.
-[X] Ask that the bipod on the 875.1 be, if at all possible, modified to be less likely to bash fingers if open while holding the fore-grip. Maybe integrate the bipod and foregrip somehow?
-[X] Revert the Rivkes rifle to original specifications, issue orders that Rivkes rifles are to be left on safe unless the soldier is about to start shooting
I think "most soldiers can charge the weapon at all" is more important than ergonomics being similar to what we want. That being said, with these modifications made, I am leaning towards adopting the Holl design, as parts commonality is nice, and the Holl Roll is a clever solution to the reloading weirdness. Also, considering the amount of time we have, I'm curious if we can make "integrated bipod and foregrip" a thing on the 875.1, which would neatly solve the issues with leaving the bipod deployed while not firing from cover or while prone.
[X] Plan Revised decisions
-[X] Ask Holl to revert the changes to the charging handle for the 875 and 875.1, while retaining the other modifications to the design, due to the reduced leverage making the weapon much more difficult to charge.
-[X] Ask that the bipod on the 875.1 be, if at all possible, modified to be less likely to bash fingers if open while holding the fore-grip. Maybe integrate the bipod and foregrip somehow?
-[X] Revert the Rivkes rifle to original specifications, issue orders that Rivkes rifles are to be left on safe unless the soldier is about to start shooting
I think "most soldiers can charge the weapon at all" is more important than ergonomics being similar to what we want. That being said, with these modifications made, I am leaning towards adopting the Holl design, as parts commonality is nice, and the Holl Roll is a clever solution to the reloading weirdness. Also, considering the amount of time we have, I'm curious if we can make "integrated bipod and foregrip" a thing on the 875.1, which would neatly solve the issues with leaving the bipod deployed while not firing from cover or while prone.
FC Error
Missileer
- Location
- Aware of where I am not
[X] Plan Revised decisions
-[X] Ask Holl to revert the changes to the charging handle for the 875 and 875.1, while retaining the other modifications to the design, due to the reduced leverage making the weapon much more difficult to charge.
-[X] Ask that the bipod on the 875.1 be, if at all possible, modified to be less likely to bash fingers if open while holding the fore-grip. Maybe integrate the bipod and foregrip somehow?
-[X] Revert the Rivkes rifle to original specifications, issue orders that Rivkes rifles are to be left on safe unless the soldier is about to start shooting
This looks good, aye.
-[X] Ask Holl to revert the changes to the charging handle for the 875 and 875.1, while retaining the other modifications to the design, due to the reduced leverage making the weapon much more difficult to charge.
-[X] Ask that the bipod on the 875.1 be, if at all possible, modified to be less likely to bash fingers if open while holding the fore-grip. Maybe integrate the bipod and foregrip somehow?
-[X] Revert the Rivkes rifle to original specifications, issue orders that Rivkes rifles are to be left on safe unless the soldier is about to start shooting
This looks good, aye.
Winged_One²
SACQ Tablemaster
- Location
- Germany
[X]Plan Other Adoption
-[X]Adopt M875 with old charging handle
-[X]Adopt M875.1 with old charging handle but other modifications
-[X]Adopt M875 with old charging handle
-[X]Adopt M875.1 with old charging handle but other modifications
For the people who are pushing to adopt things, keep in mind that we have a little under 2 years before the deadline. We can afford to not be hasty on this. While I understand the rush to adopt something with how long the contest has gone on in terms of updates, I would like to see if we can get a bit more capability out of the 875.1 prior to adoption.