Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
This makes sense. Most of those options are practically mandatory, and there's a lot of warfare on the horizon. Having a strong army will be important as we go out of the Neolithic.
From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
This makes sense. Most of those options are practically mandatory, and there's a lot of warfare on the horizon. Having a strong army will be important as we go out of the Neolithic.
They said in the update itself. The lake they control is too big for any one subfaction to control and they do a lot of aquaculture, while the lake is ALSO the main one that stays ice free year round.
It's effectively a Natural Wonder, because whoever controls it has dominance over trade and transport, whoever opposes the center will be outnumbered logistically.
Naw the big problem here is that theres no fixed code of law or precedent. Everyone is doing their own ad hoc judgments, so the settlements, close and connected as they might be, are diverging.
The permanent solutions are:
-Writing/Code of Law - Standardize the rules, and cut down the reasons for disputes between the settlements.
-Riding/Wagons and Roads - Make transport easier between the settlements. We've been making do with river transports, and water can't be beat for bulk transport, but to move culture you need something people with less resources can use. Boats are expensive.
-Organized religion - Establish a self-correcting cultural force to keep things in sync.
They're what enables the next level of government upgrades(or we get to the government level and frantically innovate to catch up)
They said it. Dissenters are drowned.
But it sounds a lot like a proto-oligarchy, because while anyone can talk to anyone at the congregations, the elites are the ones who have wide family networks and connections who can make sure they'd be heard and agreed at a level significant enough for enough voices to bring consent.
Three clear routes, double down on reining the Hunters in, formally establish speaking positions to ensure every faction with power has a voice(rather than the current situation where a faction with power is systematically kept silent through consensus), or relax and allow more autonomy.
Keeping in mind the Cracktooth collect bones.
Desecrating the dead pisses people off something fierce.
Imagine if the Cracktooth got at Kaspar's body for their totems.
Aeva died. Faction strife ended by faction leader Priit becoming de facto ruler.
We have the closest to it actually. Due to our temples, holy orders and our shaman advisors sent to our allies.
Personally I'm guessing the Bitter-Water Tribe are making grain alcohol and distilling it using the winter to separate the alcohol from the water.
Their temperature band is a little cold to make grapes work out isn't it?
Uh...remember our Holy Orders are all warriors. Flat Arrow Outlook would be neutrally affected.
Do keep in mind that we are far, far away from being able to implement any kind of intellectual or administrative trials. The only one we can prove definitively is Trial By Combat.
But the main danger of the third option is that an aging leader is vulnerable to being ousted by a younger leader by right of challenge(because they're old and no longer Great enough), so we get rough transitions between rulers, since this sort of thing tends to start with all the old guard being tossed out as well.
Locking in warriors is pretty important down the road. Remember we're on an upsurge but our warrior count is pretty beaten up(like, 2 turns ago we barely had any warrior at all left, we're fighting capable but not recovered) and we're going to be fighting this huge clusterfuck without a Martial Hero to solve everything for us.
And we simply don't have the manpower to make that work. While FAO demands that we do it anyway.
@Japanime
Can I persuade you to move the Debt and Aeva option outside of the plan so we can vote on these rather divisive items seperately? They don't impact the main plan decision(since all but the Martial option is locked in already)
- Location
- USA
I've mostly been going on what word we've received from the QM so far and apparently according to the leader board, they are still hunter-gatherer which is why I'm having some confusion.
Furthermore there also an excerpt in the passage the implied that refusing to end to the Congregation at a certain time would be a death sentence as the lakes and rivers around it would also freeze up, which is why I'm not entirely sure about the state of how the Lakelands manage things.
I'm still wondering how exactly we will implement a Code of Law considering we don't have any form of writing down yet, what we have most developed for that is symbolic tallying, however it's likely the closest thing we can get or at least prod for now as with our current backlog of projects I doubt we will create wagons or roads anytime soon, nor can we hasten the development of an organized religion.
I mean aside from corn, which as far as I know can only be used to make whiskey, which seems unlikely for them to produce in this era, and quinoa which is rarely used for alcohol making in general, I am unsure of what other grain they could use to make grain alcohol, especially as indications from the QM have indicated that they do indeed have grapes, or at least have been alluded to have it.
This was from earlier when the Tribe of the West, who we can probably just call the Bitter-Water Tribe now, were first discovered on the map. While he could just be using the imagery of grape bunches as they didn't have a beer bottle insignia, grape bunches do seem like the most likely option.
As for temperature bands to make grapes, this handy dandy map I found seems to indicate that the region the Bitter-Water Tribe inhabits can indeed be used to grow wine grapes.
https://winefolly.com/tutorial/warm-climate-vs-cool-climate-wine/
Furthermore, according to the site where I found the map, the region which the Bitter-Water Tribe inhabits in real time today is one where you can grow cool climate wine, New York. So if wine grapes can apparently be grown in Scotland, then I don't see a reason to doubt that they can be grown in what seems to be Upstate New York/Lower Canada.
Article: Cool climate regions definitely get just as hot as warm climates in the peak of the season. However, it is the fact that the temperatures drop off so quickly towards harvest that make the wines taste different. Lower temperatures preserve the acidity but they also make it difficult for grapes to ripen. You can generally assume that cool climate wine regions tend to produce tart fruit flavors and have more acidity.
Of course, the vintage plays a major role in the outcome. You can have a cool vintage create incredibly ripe tasting wines and vice-versa. This is why vintage matters so much, particularly if you tend to prefer cool climate wines.
Examples of Cool Climate Wine Regions
- Northern France
- Oregon
- Washington State (see chart)
- New York
- Chile
- Hungary
- New Zealand
- Northern Italy
- South Africa
- Austria
- Germany
- Northern Greece & Macedonia
That could be it, but the context in which the Bitter-Water Tribe responded with everything was made in reference to a location, "found or triggered something there", which indicates to me that they likely hit a holy site or another important site.
True enough, I just don't think we're quite yet at the level of religious development where this could be enforced.
Fair point. I'm somewhat waiting for a non-combat oriented Holy Order to show up. I kind of forgot about the Ember Eyes being warriors as we haven't really heard of their exploits recently, nor that of the Frost-Scarred, but that is mostly due to how dominant the Fangs are I suppose.
This does remind of something, however.
@Redium What was the result of the Pearl Divers' rolling on the magical adviser's table? It was mentioned in a previous update how it would take at least two generations, two more turns, for the last of the salterns to be built. So did we get lucky and they are now one step closer to fusing with us?
Agreed, that's why I was somewhat leery of that option as while it sounds ideal on paper it doesn't look likely to succeed in practice.
I don't disagree about the importance of locking in warriors, however my main point of contention is that without knowing our current economic status, such as how large of a surplus we have in terms of food, I would rather we play it safe and do some form of hunting in order to bolster our food stores in case another catastrophe hits in the form of weather rolls, rather than risk potential instability compounding our current succession problems. Hungry people do desperate things.
I know that we will likely have to intervene in the south against the Peace Builder's enemies again, however I'd rather play things safe and get more food stocked up while we're dealing with internal issues compared to trying to get more warriors when we are not at risk of an existential crisis. Currently our geography makes it unlikely for us to be attacked anytime soon as we have buffer states and allies in the near vicinity in every direction.
We likely will have to go knock heads down there again eventually, however I don't think it needs to be done now as most people are in agreement about our actions at the moment anyhow, with none of them including a raid action.
That is why I disagree with you at this point.
Sure, I haven't voted yet. But my overall vote stays the same anyway. At least until the QM updates again.
Aquaculture like we had it initially, is basically still hunter-gatherer until we started planting wild rice though.
Theres a few methods, but you could couple symbolic tallys to spoken mnemonic. Lots of early stuff got recorded like that.
Generally if it has enough carbohydrate content to count as a grain it probably has enough to ferment.
Still, a fair point there.
Possibly. We'd likely never know.
We're right at the brink actually. Just need a unifying holy place(and we have one which cannot be replicated). Basically, we're using a Natural Wonder to skip a bunch of tech prereqs because we DO have a source of spiritual authority nobody can contest for a couple of centuries at least.
Ember Eyes were mentioned to be more important when fighting in or against settlements, since they knew a bunch of fire magic(which probably included weaponized lime powder burns and the like which is nasty for morale)
Remember we're actually at four surplus levels. Two are currently used on the Mountain Clans, and one on the Northlands(I think?). We're going to a larger surplus once the Northland army goes home, so we actually have a far deeper buffer of food than warriors.
This is critical because we have two different pots of war ready to boil over, whenever the Mountain Clans finish imploding, or the the Western tribes go to war again, we'd be dragged into the fighting.
And we simply don't have the warriors to survive such a fight without locking in warrior training while our Hero Warrior lives.
Priit's innovations to war are, I think, at least as important as Aeva's innovations to temple building.
What is the population of our largest settlement right now?
Also, I really think we should start building the trails as soon as possible. Nothing like good ol infastructure to ensure prosperity.
Also, I really think we should start building the trails as soon as possible. Nothing like good ol infastructure to ensure prosperity.
- Location
- USA
Oh I get that part, I just don't think they're at the level where they can especially rely on it.
Taking into account this excerpt, I think they seem to be going partially towards agriculture rather than aquaculture since all we know of their sources of sustenance are that they hunt and that they plant crops.
I don't doubt that, I just don't think we're quite there yet as the some of the earliest Codes of Law such as the Ur-Nammu Code of Law and the more famous Code of Hammurabi at least had a form of writing system like cuneiform to rely on, which I don't think we quite have yet. Close to developing? Maybe. At that level? Not yet.
I don't doubt that, I just think compared to wine grapes it is unlikely, though not impossible, that they would use other things for alcohol making.
The Temple of the Stars does seem to be the focal point of our proto-religion at this point, however I don't know if we have enough yet to create an organized religion yet, mostly due to the fact that I think we need all three temples constructed and the Grand Temple megaproject to unlock it, so that we have points of control for said religion to operate out of. Close, but still likely a few generations off at this point.
Oh I remember that part, I just don't remember hearing of them participating in any kind of fighting recently, as it seems their role as researchers and magical advisers seems to have surpassed their images as warriors.
We had four surplus levels. Two of them were used on the Mountain Clans.
As for the Northlands, we didn't use our surplus to help them at all. Rather we instead sent some of our hunters and workers to help them temporarily, whether that will translate to a larger output when they come back is up for debate.
So assuming our gross food output is still at four, that being of a large surplus, with the two being sent to the Mountain Clans, we would still be at tier 2, or a small surplus, which can quickly become Edge of Hunger if the climate rolls goes tits up like it was known to do under Kaspar.
As for our current geopolitical situation, I do not dispute that we currently have two potential flashpoints in the collapsing Mountain Clans and the enemies of the Peace Builders to our far west and south.
I do not disagree with the contention that getting Priit and Aeva's Phylai Warrior System is important, however as I stated earlier, until I get a better picture of our current economic state, that being an update to the front page, I am still leery of committing to it immediately.
In terms of both situations, they do not present existential threats to our civilization. The implosion of the Mountain Clans, while disruptive, is unlikely to be more than a nuisance to us as our warriors can likely crush theirs, and they have nothing with which they can use to sack our settlements. It is more likely in my opinion that they may just become debtors to us if it means we feed them.
When it comes to the situation near the Peace Builders I think we have some time to buffer us from having to return back to deal with the situation as both the Cracktooth and Bitter-Water Tribes seem to be focused more on each other and the Swords of Damocles fixed above their heads than the Peace Builders.
So while I do not disagree with your arguments or points, I still maintain my priorities regarding keeping our economics strong, at least until I can get a better picture of the economic situation.
Forcing the development of a writing system then.
I suspect the Ember Eyes might already have a proto-form for their private use. Aeva's admin innovation likewise.
But not that far!
Not an organized religion, but it only needs to have enough organization to serve.
Maybe. Hard to tell.
Wouldn't be. We'd cut the Mountain Clan subsidy when that happens(because they'd be literally dead at that point). We have the full 4 surplus for the purpose of tanking climate. 2 for working purposes. Suffice to say we're not in any danger of shortage for a while yet, but our military remains depleted and we've been using them ceaselessly. We NEED that.
- Location
- USA
I mean, considering that we have the Stone Age Law megaproject at all, it seems likely that we had to have met some of the prerequisites for it to be even an option aside from timing. While the Stone Age caveat may make it so that writing isn't an essential element of it or its implementation, most every other form of code of law had writing to fall back on in order for it to be actually functional, so I'm hopeful we will develop writing alongside it.
We seem to have the ritual aspect of religion down, as seen from some of the scenes that we've seen from the Temple of the Stars, as well as what can be said to be a recognized Pantheon of Gods of sorts that was mentioned two updates ago when Priit talked with Aeva for the last time, so I'm pretty sure that once we create and build the Grand Temple, which may just be a renovation of the Temple of the Stars for all we know, it will likely form some basis for any organized religion we form.
What I'm worried about is not the Mountain Clans collapsing and turning on us, as economically all that means is that we wouldn't need to send them the food anymore as you suggested, but a situation where a climate roll pushes us close to the brink, and them as well, where we're instead offered a choice of saving ourselves at the cost of basically cutting the Mountain Clans loose and potentially damaging our diplo again, though not much, which could precipitate a stability loss issue for us.
I think at this point, until we can see what our current update surplus is, arguing over this is not going anywhere as I still would prefer to have a buffer rather than try to train up more warriors when I don't see a conflict occurring until at least next turn, in which case we can spend an action on it to do so.
DarkLight140
Credit to Team
- Location
- Lost in my thoughts
If I understand correctly, this was our last turn:
Ultimately we want to lock in all bordering polities as trade partners so that we can get news about what's going on outside our borders if nothing else, and also because going to war with trade partners is somewhat less likely. The Mountain Clans are pretty weak but continuing to push for trade with them might let us angle toward absorbing their island town if they splinter. While the Trade action doesn't feel urgent we know that their polity isn't stable, particularly outside our influence, and if we want to have any level of control over that situation we should be keeping an eye on it.
Both Train Warriors actions are tempting because we have a violent culture which believes in making friends and then going to war alongside them- there will almost always be a war either raging or coming up. We need to have repeated actions pushing for the numbers of our warrior class to be maintained, given the losses that will involve. The choice of if we want to push for Warriors or Holy Orders is trickier, as I don't think we can support both; I'm mildly inclined toward Holy Orders because I loosely favor a theocratic government type so having a greater proportion of Holy Orders in our military will result in more influence for them among the warrior class and thus more internal stability. Either would be good, though.
...I wish we had more actions for extended projects. Some of those are really important.
So the actions which are currently two away from being locked in are as follows:
- Trade (Mountain Clans)
- Manage Forests (Sugar)
- Train Warriors (Warriors)
- Train Warriors (Holy Orders)
Ultimately we want to lock in all bordering polities as trade partners so that we can get news about what's going on outside our borders if nothing else, and also because going to war with trade partners is somewhat less likely. The Mountain Clans are pretty weak but continuing to push for trade with them might let us angle toward absorbing their island town if they splinter. While the Trade action doesn't feel urgent we know that their polity isn't stable, particularly outside our influence, and if we want to have any level of control over that situation we should be keeping an eye on it.
Both Train Warriors actions are tempting because we have a violent culture which believes in making friends and then going to war alongside them- there will almost always be a war either raging or coming up. We need to have repeated actions pushing for the numbers of our warrior class to be maintained, given the losses that will involve. The choice of if we want to push for Warriors or Holy Orders is trickier, as I don't think we can support both; I'm mildly inclined toward Holy Orders because I loosely favor a theocratic government type so having a greater proportion of Holy Orders in our military will result in more influence for them among the warrior class and thus more internal stability. Either would be good, though.
...I wish we had more actions for extended projects. Some of those are really important.
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No. The Law is new this turn. You'll have two main choices for The Law megaproject: how it's recorded and what the main theme that the law promotes. Some of those themes project children and Debtors better than others.
Creating a manufacturing base for booze from scratch is hard. You're going to have to plant grain, hire woodcutters or potters to make vessels to hold the alcohol, store and organize everything. This isn't just an experimental action: this is creating an entire industry.
*Whistles*
The Cracktooth did not do well. The Hill that they built is made atop countless corpses. They did not integrate well; if Priit had seen how they were treated, he would've had a stroke in pure unadulterated RAGE. He can't do anything about it now since most of the Debtors you took are dead.
It actually should give you another Trait, I just forgot to put it in the update.
Non-Hereditary Orders
Born into a clan, each member of the People is encouraged to strike out on their own and make their mark on the world. They are taught to be ambitious, to look for opportunities to prove themselves and demonstrate the superiority of the clan that birthed them and the one that took them in. Excellence in all things is the creed of the People and each person must start anew to demonstrate their worth on that indomitable path.
Effects: Slightly increased Matriarchal tendency, increased ambition/adventurers seeking their fortune, increased social interconnections
No, his companions were simply not important to the narrative.
They're extremely decentralized. They are also the remnants of a much stronger civilization that was destroyed in the conflict over the southern peninsula a few generations past. They were going through several major social transitions.
It's a direct democracy, but it was slowly trending more and more to an oligarchy over time.
Take heads, apply boot.
Seriously: if you were being too stubborn, the rest of the Congregation would beat you.
Fishing is actually more important to them than hunting. They couldn't do without hunting, mind you, but most of their food is fished out of the lakes and rivers they inhabit. The region that they're in literally has thousands of distinct lakes to fish out of.
They would've resolved. The Lakelands were actually going to transition fully away from violence and return to a more peaceful lifestyle. Now, that did involve some nasty things like taking anti-Elite values and strong Conformity values, but they would've been the perfect forest Hippies! (At least until one of the tribes around them dominated their neighbours and then turned to the Lakelands to conquer and enslave them all.)
You just happened to hit them in the exact right moment when they were changing their values where they were in an unstable state between a former warrior civilization and a newly peaceful one.
Three generations ago the Peace Builders conquered quite a bit.
They've honestly spent the time just hanging back and having as many children as they possibly could. They were really savaged by the constant wars the last few turns.
Yes.
The Lakelands' elders hate you. Their young generally like you. However, you've unleashed a beast; if you don't work on building a reputation with them, the war mongers that you just unleashed will slowly turn on you.
Priit basically. They won't accept anyone else.
Yes.
She knew that she was probably going to be buried beside him, but she didn't really want to be. She would've preferred to be buried alongside her wife. Aeva knew that she wouldn't have that option, however: the People wouldn't have listened to her dying wishes.
It is going to be a trend of you creating mummies within the Cave of Stars. The criteria on which you recognize Aeva as unique will be the 'admission requirements' to be interred there.
Aeva's death and the ongoing war. Priit's warriors basically assumed control by default since their opposition died.
You do have two main Natural Wonders on which to hang any religious beliefs you do have. Those are great for centalization.
Yes, that is correct.
Yes.
First thing: I will be adding factions eventually. They were always planned, but you're just not at a high enough level of social complexity for them to be true and distinct powers. They will show up.
I was thinking more along the line of changing things so that new buildings provide a throughput of resources. For example, a Sugar Shack would give +0.5 units of Luxuries in exchange for 1 unit of Wood and 0.5 units of Food. It would take a while to balance the system, but it wold remain relatively stable over time. It would also make settlement destruction a lot more harmful as that would gut an enormous amount of infrastructure. That's ultimately more realistic; a city being destroyed could send the entire region around it into a tailspin that it might never recover from.
A large part of the region that the Bitter-Water tribe inhabit, the Niagara Peninsula, is actually famous for its production of wines. Southern Ontario has some of the best agricultural land in Canada.
Lower Canada doesn't quite mean what you think it does: Lower Canada is the former name for the province of Quebec. It was called that because it was 'lower' on the St. Lawrence River. The region that the Bitter-Water tribe inhabit would either be the Niagara Peninsula, southern Ontario, or (archaically) Upper Canada.
I haven't rolled yet. That's rolled during the transition to 19.1.
Voting is Open!
What were the Debtors tasked with doing?
[ ] [Debt] Put them to work in the fields. (Expand Agriculture: Corn x3)
[ ] [Debt] Have them finish the half-built temple. (Raise Temple: Crystal Lake)
[ ] [Debt] Moving dirt builds character. (The Hill: Fingers x2)
[ ] [Debt] Found a new settlement for them. (Found Settlement: River-Bend)
[ ] [Debt] Several of the Debtors captured were makers of the tribe's eponymous bitter water. Make them produce some for the People. (???)
[ ] [Debt] Take them, but let them be as much as possible. (???)
Looking back on Aeva's legacy, why do the People think that she was worthy to be a leader?
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva was an Ember-Eye: always in touch with the spirits.
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva was the daughter of Kaspar and born to rule.
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva was Great within her fields of experience.
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva brought Success to her endevours.
[ ] [Aeva] There really wasn't anything that made Aeva more worthy than any other. (-1 Legitimacy)
Pick: 2 Actions, 1 Tribute Focus, and 1 Martial Action.
Annual Festival [Art] - The People deserve to party! Build morale by opening up the stockpiles and having a night of feasts, dancing, music and fun.
Expand Agriculture (Quinoa, Gourds, Corn) [Admin] - The People have come to realize the bounty of the world is often not enough. They need to tame it and carefully manage the foods that are so important in sating their appetites.
Expand Aquaculture (Wild Rice, Mussels, Fishing) [Admin] - Most of the People live close to a river and are able to gather one of numerous sources of food. Often much easier to obtain than food from hunting and much less risky, these sources of food are much more vulnerable to shifts of the seasons and that of the weather.
Explore (Specify?) [Martial] [Diplomacy] - There is much to be found in the world. Countless things, often placed by the hand of the spirits themselves. It is up to the People to find them.
Found Settlement (includes: Brick Wall, Shrine, Sugar Shack) [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] - While the People build homes where they will, often where food or resources can easily be found, these places are settled without organization or care. By founding a formal settlement, it becomes possible for central authority to exert itself before the People become too fracas. (Requires: 2 tiers of Econ and excess population. Available locations: North Bay, River Fork, River Bend, Wide River. 1 settlement possible to found.)
Manage Forests (Sugar, Timber, Medicine, Gathering) [Admin] - While the forests provide the least of the People's food, they have provided that which is most useful. Sugar is wonderous in taste and highly sought after as a trade goods. Evergreen tea soothes aching bodies and quiets headaches. There is much to be found in the unknown, perhaps rare, but of significant value.
Manage Hunting (Dogs, Orkers, Traps, Herd Animals, Prize Animals) [Martial] - Improve upon the hunting techniques of the People. Work to increase the amount of meat that is available to consume and empower the People. A risky activity and one that requires a great investment of skill and energy, this provides the largest gains of food.
Promote Folk Wrestling [Flat Arrow Outlook] [Martial] - The People are fracas and have a tendency towards physical confrontations and violence. By carefully channeling this tendency, it's possible to develop further skill at war and turn hunters into skilled and deadly raiders.
Raid ((Mountain Clans, Arrow Lake, Pearl Divers, Island Makers, Peace Builders, Enemies of the Peace Builders)) [Flat Arrow Outlook] [Retributive Justice] [Martial] - The hunting of beasts turns now into the hunting of men. Strike down those who oppose the People so that we may be kept safe.
Study Travel [Art] - Invest time in learning how most effectively to travel. The world is harsh and strange, learning how to traverse it will save the People much in effort and food.
Study Fire [Art] - The greatest and most capricious of spirits, fire is of immense use to the People. The recent discovery of lime and the founding of the Ember-Eyed has spurred substantial interest in developing understanding of this forceful spirit further.
Study Stone [Art] - A solid and stable spirit, the People have found numerous type of stone with different properties. How these properties can be best served to support the People is unknown. Learning to work the material will likely pay enormous dividends in the future.
Trade (Arrow Lake, Peace Builders, Pearl Divers, Island Makers, Northlands, Mountain Clans) [Diplomacy] [Martial] - It is clear that the People do not hold all that is significant within the world. There are other tribes that hold interesting, useful or beautiful objects. By offering up some as gifts, things that the People do not have will be provided in return.
Train Warriors (Warriors, Holy Order) [Flat Arrow Outlook] [Martial] [Admin] - The People have warriors well trained in the art of killing. By diverting more young people into these professions, preparations for war can be established. In a way, it is like knapping obsidian into a knife. An action that takes deliberation and planning, forethought, to be useful.
Prepare for Ordeal [Trial By Fire] [Admin] - The spirits test the People, always. These tests are ones that require careful preparation and forethought. The People will be prepared. A crisis well managed is a sign of spiritual favour, one that's botched causes the People to further suffer.
Tribute Foci
Defense - Walls, Defensive Structures, Trails, Folk Wrestling
Food - Agriculture, Aquaculture, Herding, Hunting
Magic - Study Fire, Study Stone, Study Travel
Megaprojects - Current Megaproject
Rural Infrastructure - Settlements, New Trails, Manage Forests
Spirits - Temples, Ordeals, Festivals
Urban Infrastructure - Temples, Walls, Festivals, Trade
War - Raids, Train Warriors, Folk Wrestling
World - New Trails, Exploring, Trade, Hunting
Megaprojects:
Artificial River [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.
The Dam [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Inspired by the feats of ingenuity demonstrated by a large, but common, rat, the People have decided to emulate their creations on a more massive scale. By blockaded a river, it would be possible to accumulate an enormous amount of water, something that could easily be put to use.
The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin] (4 Actions) - The People have countless stories and man ways of living. How is it that they are to determine the best way that one should live, both as an individual and as a member of a greater family? These traditions are opaque, constantly shifting and at times contradictory. Improvement and codification needs to be made for the People to benefit.
The World, A Shield [Supernal Symphony] [Flat Arrow Outlook] [Martial] [Admin] (12 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.
The World in Miniature [Supernal Symphony] [Diplomacy] [Admin] (7 actions) - The world is a grand place, seemingly endless in scope. The People's exploration and search for wonders has pushed them to find a way to more effectively communicate discoveries with each other. Trail markers are a start, but they are not easily portable. More can be done.
A Temple, Grand [Supernal Symphony] [Art] (8 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.
The Sisters Three [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.
A Field of Gold [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.
Extended Projects:
Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Crystal Lake, Hill Guard, The Fingers) [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] [Art] - The Ember-Eyes have discovered a secret of wood and fire. By carefully burning it, they can render it blackened and fragile. Somehow, this makes fire burn far hotter. How is it the elements dance when burning wood is not the same as wood cooked by fire?
Extend Fire Relay (Hill Guard) [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (1 Action) - The Fire Relay has served as the backbone of the People's communication and movement between The Fingers and Crystal Lake for longer than memory. With the recent founding of Hill Guard, the vaunted relay no longer stitches the People from one end to the other. This oversight must be corrected.
Raise Temple (Crystal Lake 1/2, The Fingers 0/2) [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] [Art] (2 Actions) - A ritual place where the spirits and those they touch can work. Special facilities for magic, resources, teachings and the spirits themselves are included.
The Hill (The Fingers 0/2) [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (2 Actions) - A hill made by man. A simple construct, but one that greatly raises the defensive value of a settlement.
New Trails [Wondrous World] [Admin] (9 or 12 Actions) - Inspired by the Fire Relay, these small trails are cut into the innumerable forests that surround the People. Serving as akin to veins in the body, they promote the free movement of goods and people.
Expand Agriculture (Quinoa, Gourds, Corn) [Admin] - The People have come to realize the bounty of the world is often not enough. They need to tame it and carefully manage the foods that are so important in sating their appetites.
Expand Aquaculture (Wild Rice, Mussels, Fishing) [Admin] - Most of the People live close to a river and are able to gather one of numerous sources of food. Often much easier to obtain than food from hunting and much less risky, these sources of food are much more vulnerable to shifts of the seasons and that of the weather.
Explore (Specify?) [Martial] [Diplomacy] - There is much to be found in the world. Countless things, often placed by the hand of the spirits themselves. It is up to the People to find them.
Found Settlement (includes: Brick Wall, Shrine, Sugar Shack) [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] - While the People build homes where they will, often where food or resources can easily be found, these places are settled without organization or care. By founding a formal settlement, it becomes possible for central authority to exert itself before the People become too fracas. (Requires: 2 tiers of Econ and excess population. Available locations: North Bay, River Fork, River Bend, Wide River. 1 settlement possible to found.)
Manage Forests (Sugar, Timber, Medicine, Gathering) [Admin] - While the forests provide the least of the People's food, they have provided that which is most useful. Sugar is wonderous in taste and highly sought after as a trade goods. Evergreen tea soothes aching bodies and quiets headaches. There is much to be found in the unknown, perhaps rare, but of significant value.
Manage Hunting (Dogs, Orkers, Traps, Herd Animals, Prize Animals) [Martial] - Improve upon the hunting techniques of the People. Work to increase the amount of meat that is available to consume and empower the People. A risky activity and one that requires a great investment of skill and energy, this provides the largest gains of food.
Promote Folk Wrestling [Flat Arrow Outlook] [Martial] - The People are fracas and have a tendency towards physical confrontations and violence. By carefully channeling this tendency, it's possible to develop further skill at war and turn hunters into skilled and deadly raiders.
Raid ((Mountain Clans, Arrow Lake, Pearl Divers, Island Makers, Peace Builders, Enemies of the Peace Builders)) [Flat Arrow Outlook] [Retributive Justice] [Martial] - The hunting of beasts turns now into the hunting of men. Strike down those who oppose the People so that we may be kept safe.
Study Travel [Art] - Invest time in learning how most effectively to travel. The world is harsh and strange, learning how to traverse it will save the People much in effort and food.
Study Fire [Art] - The greatest and most capricious of spirits, fire is of immense use to the People. The recent discovery of lime and the founding of the Ember-Eyed has spurred substantial interest in developing understanding of this forceful spirit further.
Study Stone [Art] - A solid and stable spirit, the People have found numerous type of stone with different properties. How these properties can be best served to support the People is unknown. Learning to work the material will likely pay enormous dividends in the future.
Trade (Arrow Lake, Peace Builders, Pearl Divers, Island Makers, Northlands, Mountain Clans) [Diplomacy] [Martial] - It is clear that the People do not hold all that is significant within the world. There are other tribes that hold interesting, useful or beautiful objects. By offering up some as gifts, things that the People do not have will be provided in return.
Train Warriors (Warriors, Holy Order) [Flat Arrow Outlook] [Martial] [Admin] - The People have warriors well trained in the art of killing. By diverting more young people into these professions, preparations for war can be established. In a way, it is like knapping obsidian into a knife. An action that takes deliberation and planning, forethought, to be useful.
Prepare for Ordeal [Trial By Fire] [Admin] - The spirits test the People, always. These tests are ones that require careful preparation and forethought. The People will be prepared. A crisis well managed is a sign of spiritual favour, one that's botched causes the People to further suffer.
Tribute Foci
Defense - Walls, Defensive Structures, Trails, Folk Wrestling
Food - Agriculture, Aquaculture, Herding, Hunting
Magic - Study Fire, Study Stone, Study Travel
Megaprojects - Current Megaproject
Rural Infrastructure - Settlements, New Trails, Manage Forests
Spirits - Temples, Ordeals, Festivals
Urban Infrastructure - Temples, Walls, Festivals, Trade
War - Raids, Train Warriors, Folk Wrestling
World - New Trails, Exploring, Trade, Hunting
Megaprojects:
The Dam [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Inspired by the feats of ingenuity demonstrated by a large, but common, rat, the People have decided to emulate their creations on a more massive scale. By blockaded a river, it would be possible to accumulate an enormous amount of water, something that could easily be put to use.
The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin] (4 Actions) - The People have countless stories and man ways of living. How is it that they are to determine the best way that one should live, both as an individual and as a member of a greater family? These traditions are opaque, constantly shifting and at times contradictory. Improvement and codification needs to be made for the People to benefit.
The World in Miniature [Supernal Symphony] [Diplomacy] [Admin] (7 actions) - The world is a grand place, seemingly endless in scope. The People's exploration and search for wonders has pushed them to find a way to more effectively communicate discoveries with each other. Trail markers are a start, but they are not easily portable. More can be done.
Extended Projects:
Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Crystal Lake, Hill Guard, The Fingers) [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] [Art] - The Ember-Eyes have discovered a secret of wood and fire. By carefully burning it, they can render it blackened and fragile. Somehow, this makes fire burn far hotter. How is it the elements dance when burning wood is not the same as wood cooked by fire?
Extend Fire Relay (Hill Guard) [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (1 Action) - The Fire Relay has served as the backbone of the People's communication and movement between The Fingers and Crystal Lake for longer than memory. With the recent founding of Hill Guard, the vaunted relay no longer stitches the People from one end to the other. This oversight must be corrected.
Raise Temple (Crystal Lake 1/2, The Fingers 0/2) [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] [Art] (2 Actions) - A ritual place where the spirits and those they touch can work. Special facilities for magic, resources, teachings and the spirits themselves are included.
The Hill (The Fingers 0/2) [Supernal Symphony] [Admin] (2 Actions) - A hill made by man. A simple construct, but one that greatly raises the defensive value of a settlement.
New Trails [Wondrous World] [Admin] (9 or 12 Actions) - Inspired by the Fire Relay, these small trails are cut into the innumerable forests that surround the People. Serving as akin to veins in the body, they promote the free movement of goods and people.
Actions that could be locked in this turn: None
Automatic Actions: Trade (Arrow Lake, Northlands, Pearl Divers), Expand Agriculture (Quinoa) Expand Aquaculture (Rice, Fishing), Manage Hunting (Dogs), Prepare for Ordeal
Special Options for this turn: None
Note: Failing to take a [Supernal Symphony] action will cost 1 Stability! Can Double Down at cost of 1 Stability on an action by adding a sub tag to that specific action.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X] [Aeva] Aeva was the daughter of Kaspar and born to rule.
Doubt it'll win but gotta try.
Doubt it'll win but gotta try.
- Location
- United States
[X] [Debt] Take them, but let them be as much as possible. (???)
[X] [Aeva] Aeva brought Success to her endevours.
I'm not particularly enjoying the whole Debtor situation (building shit on mountains or corpses is not at all sustainable) and would prefer people to be integrated rather than used up and discarded.
On the subject of Aeva, let's go through the list:
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva was an Ember-Eye: always in touch with the spirits.
Elevates the Ember Eyes and those in touch with the spirits above all else, essentially creating a powerful religious class within the tribe.
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva was the daughter of Kaspar and born to rule.
Rule by bloodline is still an incredibly stupid way to rule, since it creates a group of people who are elevated above all else for no merit of their own. It's good at keeping long term stability, but a culture with the value of "everything can be solved by violence" would very easily be able to throw coups to put someone else of the bloodline in charge anyways. All it really does is limit the pool of people for prestigious positions.
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva was Great within her fields of experience.
Being Great is all well and good, but someone can be Great while still shitting things up for everyone else. No thanks.
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva brought Success to her endevours.
Success turns the option into "who is the most well liked during their rule" essentially. In a more stratified society this could be used to spread propaganda and make it so that almost all rulers are deemed "successful", but I don't think this will be an issue in the society as it is.
[ ] [Aeva] There really wasn't anything that made Aeva more worthy than any other. (-1 Legitimacy)
Aeva was more worthy than others, both for her innate talent and her deeds. There's no reason to believe that anyone could do what she did when that is simply not the case.
TL;DR : Success > nothing > Great > Bloodline
[X] [Aeva] Aeva brought Success to her endevours.
I'm not particularly enjoying the whole Debtor situation (building shit on mountains or corpses is not at all sustainable) and would prefer people to be integrated rather than used up and discarded.
On the subject of Aeva, let's go through the list:
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva was an Ember-Eye: always in touch with the spirits.
Elevates the Ember Eyes and those in touch with the spirits above all else, essentially creating a powerful religious class within the tribe.
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva was the daughter of Kaspar and born to rule.
Rule by bloodline is still an incredibly stupid way to rule, since it creates a group of people who are elevated above all else for no merit of their own. It's good at keeping long term stability, but a culture with the value of "everything can be solved by violence" would very easily be able to throw coups to put someone else of the bloodline in charge anyways. All it really does is limit the pool of people for prestigious positions.
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva was Great within her fields of experience.
Being Great is all well and good, but someone can be Great while still shitting things up for everyone else. No thanks.
[ ] [Aeva] Aeva brought Success to her endevours.
Success turns the option into "who is the most well liked during their rule" essentially. In a more stratified society this could be used to spread propaganda and make it so that almost all rulers are deemed "successful", but I don't think this will be an issue in the society as it is.
[ ] [Aeva] There really wasn't anything that made Aeva more worthy than any other. (-1 Legitimacy)
Aeva was more worthy than others, both for her innate talent and her deeds. There's no reason to believe that anyone could do what she did when that is simply not the case.
TL;DR : Success > nothing > Great > Bloodline
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
It is by far the best system of government this early. Elite Entrenchment is pretty much a guarantee in all but the delusions of the modern era. A Government run by heroes dies by their lack... and heroes are few. And Corruption is plenty.
In my eyes it'd be Success = Blood > Great> Nothing.
- Location
- Somewhere
What plan? I see no substance.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's the plan veekie proposed in the discussion period.
[][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
-[][Action] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[][Action] The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin]
-[][Martial] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[][Tribute] Megaprojects
- Location
- Asia
Booze.
[X] [Debt] Several of the Debtors captured were makers of the tribe's eponymous bitter water. Make them produce some for the People. (???)
Success is a great criteria.
[X] [Aeva] Aeva brought Success to her endevours.
[X] [Debt] Several of the Debtors captured were makers of the tribe's eponymous bitter water. Make them produce some for the People. (???)
Success is a great criteria.
[X] [Aeva] Aeva brought Success to her endevours.
- Location
- United States
>Implying that bloodlines don't have corruption.
As I said, all it does is limit the amount of people who are allowed into positions of importance.
A society that heavily endorses both excellence and violence will quickly turn on a weak ruler. and a monarchy is guaranteed to both eventually spawn a weak ruler and make it difficult to get rid of and replace that ruler.
Rulership that is not dominated by bloodlines (or even by one bloodline) results in the people ruling either wanting to rule and getting there by any means, or the rulers being temporary patsies until someone can claim their spot.
The whole reason bloodline is even an option is because Aeva both has the blood of a Hero and is a Hero herself, making people presume that her bloodline has greatness inherent in it. A monarchy essentially requires consistently good heirs to not be slashed into irrelevancy by the growing nobility (since others will marry into the bloodline and thus make themselves inherently better) or ruin their nation with their own inadequacies.
- Location
- Minnesota
[X] [Debt] Several of the Debtors captured were makers of the tribe's eponymous bitter water. Make them produce some for the People. (???)
[X] [Aeva] Aeva was an Ember-Eye: always in touch with the spirits.
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
[X] [Aeva] Aeva was an Ember-Eye: always in touch with the spirits.
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Oh i didn't mean to imply that. All of them have corruption, its just Greatness has a fundamental instability in it that exacerbates it.
And that kind of rulership is EXTREMELY unstable, there is in fact an actual reason why Heredity was so favored. Indeed there is a reason why a large portion of the world had a variation of heredity, Every single one of these option will eventually have an entrenched nobility lite. Barring extreme player shenanigans, its going to happen. Because its not only the most stable, but the easiest to do. In terms of both Social order as well as competency. Its easier to train someone from birth to do it, and its easier for the social order for the trainer to train his son/daughter to do so and using his resources to expand on that training.
- Location
- Somewhere
[X] [Debt] Found a new settlement for them. (Found Settlement: River-Bend)
[X] [Aeva] Aeva brought Success to her endevours.
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
-[X][Action] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X][Action] The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin]
-[X][Martial] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X][Tribute] Megaprojects
[X] [Aeva] Aeva brought Success to her endevours.
[X][Actions] Plan Pretty Much Obligatory
-[X][Action] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X][Action] The Law [Retributive Justice] [Admin]
-[X][Martial] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X][Tribute] Megaprojects
- Location
- United States
Sure, every single empire will eventually have an entrenched upper class by necessity, but that doesn't justify your position to push hereditary rule when it is clearly not currently needed.
the Tribe runs fine on the current system, and there is no pressure within the tribe to create a hereditary upper class besides the anomaly of Heroes, which as you said are quite rare.
Saying that something has been used in most of history does not mean that it will need to be used with our current playstyle, and I believe it is best to take actions that take advantage of our people's strengths and weaknesses rather than doing something simply because most other people eventually do it.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Our current System is NOT fine. We have to change, it was presented in this update as bad. Aeva's dead and the system is failing due to inefficiencies and such. There is a reason why were voting on this ya know?