Baron Ouroboros

Emerald Leaves and Crimson Petals
Location
Vancouver
Pronouns
He/Him
The topic of states, modern and premodern conceptions of citizenship, and the concept of sovereignty throughout time has fascinated me ceaselessly. I have come to see the deeply rooted disparity that marks the world: the yawning chasms which cause misfortune, conflict, and destitution between us. Hence, the idea of a worldwide polity has captured my imagination, even as unrealistic and potentially problematic such a state of affairs could be. Nonetheless, I'm fascinated by the subject, and have long desired to speak with others about it.

This thread is for speculation, where we'll discuss the desirability, or lack thereof, of a global government, the organization and ideological paradigms it could be made of, and the possibility, or lack thereof, of such an event happening ever at all.
 
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I'm generally on the "nay" team.

A single world government represents a single point of failure for all mankind. If a country passes a stupid law restricting important research other countries can pick up the slack. If a country begins to become oppressive people can, in ideal circumstances, leave. If one country does something poorly another country can do it well and set an example. None of this is true when there is only one country.

I'd take the immense political will required to create a one world government and use it to:
1) Create multi-national organisations that help preserve peace, respect human rights, protect the environment and prevent existential risks.
2) Have open borders for everyone all the time (except like disease quarantine).
 
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I personally don't think that a world government under the current state paradigms is possible or even preferable at this point, as the class, ethnic, and gender disparities within states nowadays are endemic to the structures that make them up. States (and the economies composing them), under the current paradigm of the nation-state, are in large part inherently exclusionary entities; ie. they're bound to have disadvantaged minorities, under-represented people, and even those whom are considered as having inferior citizenship.

So, a state entity composing the entire world would not resolve the underlying issues which fester disparity and social inequality in this world.

However, I think that internationality is vital, and that the very concept of a nation state should necessarily weaken its exclusive hold on the bodies called citizens, particularly because that would preclude the emergence of a global society. In fact, that has been happening for a long time coming, as our current conversations show: Sufficient Velocity is in fact unbound by state loyalties and nationalistic conceptions of kinship, in the sense that our membership here does not recognize state membership in determining rights and hierarchy. We, among many others, are a community which transcends said boundaries; we're a manifestation of internationality in this increasingly globalized world.

What could an internationalized world mean for us? Whereas we've seen interaction transcending national boundaries unlike of what has been seen in all of state history, nationalistic divisions and politics have been on an uptick too.

Case in point, internationality weakens the state's unilateral power as a governing entity over people's lives, which in turn allows for greater freedom and relief from ethnic based discrimination, class inequality, and gender discrimination, assuming international movements/ spaces are intersectionally minded; the pursuit of justice and mutual support would know no borders. In addition (ideally), unilateral actions on the part of states, imperial or otherwise, will be neutralized by internationalized communities preventing conflict ( that is the point of the UN, though by itself it has been woefully ineffective at creating international solidarity). Is this the beginning of a new paradigm of human organization?
 
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I don't think a single all-encompassing state even makes sense. On the most fundamental level, states are people organizing themselves politically in order to defend their interests. States are explicitly there in order to gain an upper hand for the own guys in the eternal competition of people against each other. If there is no "other", then there is no purpose for a state.

A world state would only make sense once we have frequent contacts with outsiders, i.e. aliens.
 
I don't think a single all-encompassing state even makes sense. On the most fundamental level, states are people organizing themselves politically in order to defend their interests. States are explicitly there in order to gain an upper hand for the own guys in the eternal competition of people against each other. If there is no "other", then there is no purpose for a state.

A world state would only make sense once we have frequent contacts with outsiders, i.e. aliens.
As much as I see that a world state may be undesirable, I do not think that is the primary purpose of society-- perhaps the state, but not society. People organizing themselves in sustainable communities for their own betterment is the goal, which by no means contradicts a world polity engaging in that. In other words, a global society may form (and has already formed in some ways) that is governed by its constituents so to ensure fair interaction and understanding between members. I don't speak of a state, necessarily, but any form of human organizing that creates communal bonds through cooperation and politics, ie. government.
 
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As much as I see that a world state may be undesirable, I do not think that is the primary purpose of society-- perhaps the state, but not society. People organizing themselves in sustainable communities for their own betterment is the goal, which by no means contradicts a world polity engaging in that.
And I did say state :V
As for society, well, globalization and modern telecommunciation has seen to it that in some ways we do have a global society nowadays. It isn't all-encompassing yet, and particular in China one can see almost a completely parallel internet society, but we are getting a border-spanning society that way.
 
And I did say state :V
As for society, well, globalization and modern telecommunciation has seen to it that in some ways we do have a global society nowadays. It isn't all-encompassing yet, and particular in China one can see almost a completely parallel internet society, but we are getting a border-spanning society that way.
Indeed. The question I'm pondering is how the current conception of states will change to fit the new reality of a world where borders do little to contain human communities from interacting and melding among themselves.


Additionally, as societies are formed across borders, so are politics. Personally, I imagine international societies that are governed democratically (ideally, direct-democratically) to be a great outcome of this globalization.

Take Sufficient Velocity for example, and imagine how this site would be if it were more substantial to our material lives. I think we would have an identity of being Velociteers that far exceeds whatever we have now with it.
 
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What will it even be like?

American hegemony part deux? EU all grown up? China's empire worldwide?
 
Indeed. The question I'm pondering is how the current conception of states will change to fit the new reality of a world where borders do little to contain human communities from interacting and melding among themselves.
I think we are seeing the answer atm? We are seeing more and more supranational organizations and internatioal regimes. EU, WTO, and so on. World economy without WTO wouldn't even work anymore.
 
I think we are seeing the answer atm? We are seeing more and more supranational organizations and internatioal regimes. EU, WTO, and so on. World economy without WTO wouldn't even work anymore.
True, but I speak more of how modern conceptions of citizenship would fit to a totally globalized world, where international communities (with members from multiple states) comprise much of any one society.

Imagine Sufficient Velocity as a materially relevant international polity, with all members given a democratic vote, support, employment, policy discussion (if direct democratic), etc. Whereas organizations like this exist commonly in corporate form, by NGO's and supranational organization, etc. I have to wonder how it would be like if it proliferates to the point where being part of international groups becomes a primary source of cultural identity, whereupon people groups (imagined communities) are constantly formed in globalized environments.

Case in point, how would states changed in a world like that, if the old axioms of exclusive citizenship become materially and culturally immaterial to many people's lives? I don't much know the answer to what I speak of, but frankly it's nice to talk for a change.

What will it even be like?

American hegemony part deux? EU all grown up? China's empire worldwide?

Direct democracy Earthside to the Moon in an anarchic union of sorts. :p

Or maybe it could be like an Earth Federation from whichever sci fi series? Say, with a capital that rotates continents every ten years, or perhaps even a floating capital that circles the globe on the seas. :V

Come to think of it, nation-states are a uniquely modern take on the state. Forms of identity surpassing the state level have been common, even dominant in human history, usually concerning religions like Islam and Christianity. The nationalism we know of as a unifying source of identity is actually a recent phenomenon originating in Europe following the enlightenment and into industrialization, I think?

Mind, that is nationalism in the sense of its emergence in modernistic conceptions of citizenship and the state (emerging from Europe during that period).
 
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My ideal would be a global government staffed by representatives who would themselves governed by their constituent regional councils, that themselves would have representatives that would be governed by direct democratic constituencies. In short, any representative would be directly ordered by the people they represent.

Not that it's compatible with the current system, but it's a nice thought to have.

Anyway, given that globalism is our current reality now, we need the development of democratic power that surpasses the national level. I think so particularly because our system of relationships currently doesn't have any sufficient constraints upon oligarchy on a global level. After all, the reason that the welfare states of old were replaced was because the capitalism that they were organized to contain outgrew them. So even as the world was unified, it was not integrated on a representational level, which meant that capitalism could run free without the democratic restraints which bound it on a national level. This in turn increased income inequality, reduced trust in the democratic order of many countries, and increased supremacist extremism as a result.

I imagine, therefore, that the powers of democratic representation, and the constitutional bindings which keep them democratic, should expand for the sake of a peaceful, integrated world. How so. I've got no clue, but given that it is my belief that capitalism is an anti-democratic force by the nature of its organizational structure and paradigmatic logic, I conclude that we ought to create supranational public organizations that further unify the world, not in the sense of private capital interests but through policies conducted by democratic representation (and ideally, direct democracy, though that seems far fetched for many).

Others may disagree that capitalism is incompatible with democracy, which is a perfectly fine position, but consider this: corporations are organized dictatorially, with bosses holding direct power over their private organizations. When their private interests are applied to government, the logical result is the perpetuation of oligarchy, not democracy, as their position in the social hierarchy automatically grants them special leverage over the represented officials. Case in point, oligarchy is what usually happens under unrestrained capitalism, because by dint of private interests being placed over communal mandates the government assumes an oligarchical structure.

We need effective public democracy on a globalized level, the constitutional base to give it weight, and the institutional power to make informed democracy effective, especially if we are to effectively combat the anti-democratic, ethno-nationalist, and white supremacist ideologies which assail us. With such effective representation, people's needs can be given voice against oligarchs and supremacists alike, who thrive on ignoring the rules of democracy for their own ends. Democracy should be resilient as the organized manifestation of the people, and to be resilient, asides from constitutional boundaries on acceptable actions (like, no nazis, no persecution of minorities, no hate speech as a political tool, no ending the democracy you're running for, etc.), it needs legitimacy from the people and popular participation to make it legitimate.


Whether you believe that capitalism can coexist with democracy when contained by the mandate of the people, or if it needs to go to ensure effective democratic control, it is easy to see that democratic representation and legitimacy on a globalized level is what can combat the disparities and injustices of our world and the tyrannies and hateful ideologies which arise from them. We need this, too, or something like it, to face the existential problem of climate change.


Edit: in other words, global public entities with democratically controlled power that constrain or replace capitalism. I would personally imagine it as a form of globalized socialism.
 
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I don't like the idea of a single government that can impose it's will on everyone everywhere. Better to have a balanced world where several great powers can check each other.
 
I don't like the idea of a single government that can impose it's will on everyone everywhere. Better to have a balanced world where several great powers can check each other.
That's problematic because those powers are bound to come into conflict, be it hot or cold. All in all, a less peaceful world than the still problematic situation of a hegemon like America keeping the peace.
 
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I don't think a single all-encompassing state even makes sense. On the most fundamental level, states are people organizing themselves politically in order to defend their interests. States are explicitly there in order to gain an upper hand for the own guys in the eternal competition of people against each other. If there is no "other", then there is no purpose for a state.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

We don't need external enemies, any human group can produce plenty of internal enemies with no external help. Even in the most tolerant society possible there has to be some kind of organization to keep the lunatics and fanatics from tearing everything down; and that organization would in the modern world be a nation state.

And watch as they inevitably fail because they don't have any power.
Or worse they do have power; the usual term for people in an international group that tries to force its will on people outside of a legal structure is "international terrorists".

If international groups can in fact enforce their will through an international legal edifice; well, that is a "world state", whether anyone calls it that.
 
I don't think a single all-encompassing state even makes sense. On the most fundamental level, states are people organizing themselves politically in order to defend their interests. States are explicitly there in order to gain an upper hand for the own guys in the eternal competition of people against each other. If there is no "other", then there is no purpose for a state.

States exist to defend the rights and powers of those who built them. But not just against external enemies. They're also constructs defending their interests against other internal interests. It's definitely people against each other, but it doesn't have to be a state against other states.

Could also be people against nature. Because it looks like we're going to lose that fight at this rate.
 
States exist to defend the rights and powers of those who built them. But not just against external enemies. They're also constructs defending their interests against other internal interests. It's definitely people against each other, but it doesn't have to be a state against other states.

Could also be people against nature. Because it looks like we're going to lose that fight at this rate.

You are not going to get unity through internal problems, only more factions and divisions as politics attest.

Also people have different visions on how to solve problems and create a better society. When it comes to sweeping problems affecting the whole world like climate change, you are not going to get consensus on how to tackle it.
 
You are not going to get unity through internal problems, only more factions and divisions as politics attest.

Also people have different visions on how to solve problems and create a better society. When it comes to sweeping problems affecting the whole world like climate change, you are not going to get consensus on how to tackle it.

You don't need consensus to have a state though. The idea that states are some paragon of unity is easily disproved by looking at what national politics look like.
 
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