Title is pretty straight-forward. On January, 1st, 2001, at the stroke of midnight, the cities...
WI: New York and London ISOTed from 2001 to 1901
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Title is pretty straight-forward. On January, 1st, 2001, at the stroke of midnight, the cities of London and New York, only the city proper cutting along the borders with quantum precision, are sent back in time to the stroke of midnight on January, 1st, 1901, a full century round-trip. What next? Most notably, both nations will now have to figure out how to feed these two cities with massive populations, a fact that won't be helped that it's entirely possible to 1901 UK government vanished along with their London. There's gonna be a lot of starvation, probably. Then there's gonna be the shockwave of a 100 years of progress and history, plus probably quite a few immigrants or descendants thereof trying to create better fates for their homelands. And, given that uptime New York has more people then any downtime state, there is a gonna be a LOT of political stuff going on. God knows how the fate of the UK's overseas colonies goes. Oh, and, of course, Ireland's gonna turn into chaos. Your thoughts?
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The New York stuff is going to be utterly horrific given that McKinley is going to want New York to follow the Law of the Nation.
I don't see New York re-imposing Racial Segregation. Even Rudy Giuliani won't do that one.
So the US is in for a complete shit-storm.
The UK is in a far better place. Ok Gascoyne-Cecil is gone, and that's less than good.
However, Viktoria is on the Isle of Wight, Elizabeth would have been in Sandringham so she's not actually around.
What you have at this point in the UK, is Tony Blair, PM, for Queen-Empress Victoria and the British Empire.
It could be far worse for the UK.
Ireland is not likely to be an issue as they would likely get self-rule as a dominion at worst as soon as Blair gets a grip on when he is.
Blair, after all, was deeply involved in the Northern Ireland Peace Process.
What your likely to see though is a far more long-term development and devolution process of the Empire get started.
But realistically the Government of Tony Blair is going to focus completely on stopping The Great War from ever happening.
I don't see New York re-imposing Racial Segregation. Even Rudy Giuliani won't do that one.
So the US is in for a complete shit-storm.
The UK is in a far better place. Ok Gascoyne-Cecil is gone, and that's less than good.
However, Viktoria is on the Isle of Wight, Elizabeth would have been in Sandringham so she's not actually around.
What you have at this point in the UK, is Tony Blair, PM, for Queen-Empress Victoria and the British Empire.
It could be far worse for the UK.
Ireland is not likely to be an issue as they would likely get self-rule as a dominion at worst as soon as Blair gets a grip on when he is.
Blair, after all, was deeply involved in the Northern Ireland Peace Process.
What your likely to see though is a far more long-term development and devolution process of the Empire get started.
But realistically the Government of Tony Blair is going to focus completely on stopping The Great War from ever happening.
See, on the other hand, there's the issue of if New Yorkers can VOTE. If they're considered part of the US, that means they can vote, and they have a population higher than ANY of the states in 1901. I don't imagine the downtime US is keen on the 21st-century New Yorkers being abto make laws. The Supreme Court MAY be able to figure out some sort of "semi-autonomous" situation, where New York gets to estiannally enforce its own laws within city limits, on the condition of being treated as a pseudo-independent state, but that's unlikely. Also, keep in mind, Vick ain't gonna be around long. This was already the last year of her reign in OTL, and the stress of this situation is NOT gonna help. If she makes it out of January alive, it'll be a miracle.
New York is gonna be a massive shitstorm no matter.
Edward the Seventh was in London, George the Fifth was not, so even if Vicky drops earlier due the stress, which isnt sure, you just get George the Fifth, earlier, which isnt bad.
There are good things about Monarchies as far as crises go.
The big thing for Blair in London will be to disarm the Powderkeg that is Europe.
Which means getting the French, Germans, Russians and Austrians into a room and showing them, the nightmare to come.
Especially since I wouldn't put it past New York's massive immigrant/immigrant-descendant population for at least a few of them to decide "fuck it" and go to their homelands to try and change history, by which I mean, murder Hitler. But, yes, averting WWI will probably be a big priority for George the V and VII (V for the downtimers, VII for the uptimers.)
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He'd still Regnally be George the Vth. The VII would only come into play if they treat uptime London as a different country, which they wouldn't.
Yes, Hitler is a problem in 1901. He's 12 years old and going to school, and granted someone would probably try murdering him, but they have to get to Linz, Austria in the first place, and that is gonna be far trickier than you think unless you speak perfect Austrian-German.
The Biggest Diaspora's to be concerned about as far as politics goes are the Russian, Ukrainian, Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic and Indian ones in London, not the New York ones.
It's more likely that someone out of London is gonna try killing off Saddam's Father or Hussa Al Sudairi the Mother of the Modern Saudi Royals, not to mention Vladimir Lenin and Ioseb Besarionis dzе Jughashvili, aka Josef Stalin.
As far as Germany goes... Blair will not want a hyper-militaristic Germany, so he'll show them the history-that-was, which means that quite likely a young man currently studying frenetically for his second legal exams by name Konrad Hermann Joseph Adenauer will get a job far above the normal paygrade for a newly graduated lawyer.
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I see a rather interesting dilemma for Blair and Gascoyne-Cecils replacement, because London has overnight gained three million+ people and it is a Labour fortress at this point, Then there are over 30 thousand new police officers.
The Royals when you get into it is another interesting situation because the Modern Royals were all at Sandringham for Christmas and Edward was in London so Victoria and George have now basically inherited Elizabeths Household Regiments when the commanders can get in touch with them.
The Household Regiments have the majority of the equipment outside London in various army bases, but they do have "More than enough" equipment at the Knightsbridge Barracks to safeguard the Queen... the Household Regiments are listed as Armoured Cavalry.
I can see a crisis government forming because the Downtimers might have the MPs and Lords, Blair has Whitehall and the Met.
Edit: There's also Admiralty House to consider, they might only have two ships on permanent mooring in London but they did have others in London on temporary tour.
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There is no Electricity except for what can be generated by Diesel Generators.
This is True, It's not like Whitehall has oh... a hundred years of records on where to find Oil making that a highly problematic, but temporary issue.
This is a bit overstated, there is food. There is infact quite alot of food available, and it's not like the city's are just going to starve, they can Purchase food, this is 1901 not the freaking Stone Age. (Which was a nice timeline on AH.com)
The IFV/AFV's will run out of Fuel yes... The ones used by the HCav are Diesel powered, so all they need is a base for BioDiesel, like cooking oil, there's more than enough of that to keep the Hospitals (and AFV's) running until they can source supplies of industrial amounts of oil.
Ammo is a problem yes... Until you send a box to the ROF so they can make you more, It's not as if the HCav is going to start shooting people in the middle of London.
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The Bank of England has rather alot of Gold, certainly enough to tide them over until they can get talking, most assuredly.
As long as they have fuel and parts, and I was talking about Hospital generators being the priority... not a percentage of population.
You seem to be disregarding the fact that they'll have the information needed to build the machines and to produce the ammo, even if they can't do it right away?
Either way, there are stockpiles inside London.
Why are you angling the conversation as if you expect London to go to war with the British Empire?
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Zap Rowsdower
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There's also a lot of gold in NYC - the federal reserve vault in Manhattan has just over 6000 tons. Held in trust for others, technically, but those others no longer exist, so chances are Giuliani will claim it or else grant it to the feds to spend on NYC sooner or later
Certainly plausible, however Blair and the Commanders of HCav can get to Victoria at Osborne House and bring her to George at York Cottage, faster than anyone else can.
There's no beating a Helicopter for transport time.
This is actually one of the most significant changes. Yes these ships would be next to useless for combat if they had appeared in 40 years, but right now they actually do have enough armament to truly rule the seas. They will of course need to rebuild the infrastructure to make ammo, but even in the short term it gives the British navy unparalleled strength wherever whatever fleet they have in harbor goes. I could actually see a lot of the commercial vessels in New York actually getting seized by the Federal Government as well, even if not for rebuilding into a more powerful US Navy, then simply to take the machinery and plants to be built into new naval ships.
There is another point, while yes the NY Police are probably as strong as the rest of the US Army, that is a pittance of the actual number of modern weapons in NY. Another thing to consider is any foreign flagged, or perhaps just captained vessels that are in New York at the time. I can honestly see actual wars breaking out over the contents of a single container ship, because 'who owns the cargo?'
As for energy I found a fun document about New York. It actually is far better off for Energy than people have supposed. It had 8760 megawatts of production in city in 1998. The demand by 2003 was 11,020 MW with 8816MW produced in city (pg9). So New York at least is in a pretty good place energy production wise. Of course there will be massive blackouts, and probably rolling brown outs until proper rationing is implemented but the city will survive and have power. It would be the importation of natural gas and coal that would require some hot footing and wheeling dealing to get in place.
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And - greatly endearing the Uptimers to the Downtimers if the Queen dies of heart attack on the way ...
That on top of Royal Abduction ...
Alternatively they can just get Blair there together with HCav Commanders to swear fealty and start telling Victoria their side, while another Helicopter gets to York Cottage and fetches George.
Either way, The UK has just lost a London of 4.6 million people among them the Crown Prince and gained one with 7.2 million and no Royals in attendance.
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What happens to the UT versions of the cities? Do they get sent forward to 2001?
Why would they be denied the vote?
That makes no sense.
That makes no sense.
They have racial segregation and women being denied their votes going on, so old-time NY at least would be under an enforcement action sooner or later until US of A manages to force the locals into compliance.
I'm talking strictly about London, not NYC
Yes, but this wouldn't be a situation where they would be denied the vote. This is a situation where they would be told, "Everyone has a vote."
The trouble of course coming when they need national guardsmen at all the poling places to prevent people from being intimidated out of voting, and the various voter registration drives that would be having serious trouble getting women and black's registered out of fear. But even so that wouldn't cause disenfranchisement of the remaining population.
So... I'm guessing you have no actual reason or basis for discussion, but you're trolling, cause I mean your argument is basically grounded in societies mired in war fatigue 15+ years away from the time discussed, where economic damage and idiotic propaganda had caused the big names of the anglo-sphere to shoot themselves in the gut.
How about you come back when you're willing to discuss what the people at the time would be doing in the situation?
Bigotry, such as?
All sorts of emergency diesel generators - iffy
There are no operating oil refineries inside the city (I have not found any). AFAIK diesel is not yet a "product". However, simpler diesel generators should run on crudely refined stuff. So, a matter of months before production of adequate fuel is arranged?
Diesel's been around since 1892, It's not available in the quantities needed but it's a known thing and not hugely hard to source and most emergency generators will run on cooking oil, as I've already stated.
One thing to keep in mind though is that the tricky bit isn't really the fuel. It isn't that hard to convert natural gas back to coal fired. Some of them were likely converted from coal to natural gas in the first place and those would be very easy changes. Others would be more complicated but still not that hard to really convert over to coal, as the coal process is generally simpler than natural gas plants.Great find!
However, according to that document all plants are either gas or oil, with some being able to use both. A google search suggests a 50-50 split between oil and gas.
I imagine that bringing in oil would not be that dramatic. Either by tanker ship/barge - as most plants are stated to be on the waterfront (built there to take in coal from barges in times past) - or by tanker rail cars (if no siding rigging up one is not a problem; especially is some sort of "Emergency Powers" are invoked by the Authorities).
However, I suspect that natural gas could be off the table for years. Pipelines to Pennsylvania?
All sorts of emergency diesel generators - iffy
There are no operating oil refineries inside the city (I have not found any). AFAIK diesel is not yet a "product". However, simpler diesel generators should run on crudely refined stuff. So, a matter of months before production of adequate fuel is arranged?
We are going to see fun Ranger Rick doom and gloom 70's and 80's style smog back in New York for the First time in decades until they can get the infrastructure in place to switch back AGAIN from coal back to natural gas
Edit: There also may be decommissioned coal plants that haven't yet been torn down that could be spun back up in many of those power plant sites.
Zap Rowsdower
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Some, from the lakes in the Catskills they were tapping at the time, but not enough for modern levels of use - that reservoir is from a dam finished in 1915.
Somebody is either talking about London, Ontario or they are really goddamn stupid.
London has alot of Water Treatment available to it and the Water/Sewage grid is older than the Isot event... Oh and yes, There's a.. whatchamacallit...River running through the middle of the City.
Realistically London's issues at Event +1 week will be entirely political.
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rule 2: don't be hateful
Hello everyone, sorry to interrupt.
I have logged a standard infraction against Buba's account. Hopefully, all of us will be more conscious of the hurt our words can cause going forwards.
This post clearly violates Rule 2: Don't be Hateful. We explicitly forbid the use of "Retard" as a slur on Sufficient Velocity. "Leftard" is quite obviously still the pejorative use of "Retard", even if it has been portmanteau'd with another word.
I have logged a standard infraction against Buba's account. Hopefully, all of us will be more conscious of the hurt our words can cause going forwards.