WI: New World diseases go both ways

Cloak&Dagger

Definitely Insane
In this scenario, the Native Americans are still devestated by 90% population losses due to disease. However, Eurasia and Africa also suffer the same fate from American diseases.

What does the world look like after a catastrophe that makes the Black Death look tame? What does the new order in Europe, China, India, and the Middle East look like?
 
You get what happened in the Americas, small bands of post-apocalyptic survivors living in the shadows and ruins of their former glories. There is no new order, there is only death.
 
You get what happened in the Americas, small bands of post-apocalyptic survivors living in the shadows and ruins of their former glories. There is no new order, there is only death.

First, the 90% is kind of exaggerated; it is an upper bound.

Second, the time scale involved is often misrepresented, as if 9 out of 10 Natives dropped dead as soon as Columbus set foot on land.

In reality, the decline in population was spread out over several centuries.

It could be unnoticeable from one generation to another.

An important component was that disease vectors were constantly re-introduced, as new colonists and their livestock arrived. Decade after decade, and making it more difficult to develop immunity.

The decline in population was not due to diesease alone, but in combination with colonialism, that destroyed native societies and made them more vulnerable to the dieseases.

I won't speculate in how bad it would be in the Old World, it would have consequences akin to the Black Plague and the Justinian Plague, only on steroids, but not as bad as in the New World.

And the New World, ironically, would not be as bad as OTL New World, because it would not be colonised as hard when the colonizers are literally plagued by massive epidemics.
 
In reality, the decline in population was spread out over several centuries.
Yes. I gather it finally bottomed out late in the 19th century in North America, but I suppose it did so some centuries before in places like Mexico and Peru. So the overall process was indeed spread out over many centuries, and if it were to somehow happen all at once which it did not for reasons discussed below, it would have taken maybe a couple centuries less to bottom out.
It could be unnoticeable from one generation to another.
Well, you seem to be ignoring the punctuated nature of it. The thing is the Americas were not as closely knit with trade networks, fewer societies were as dependent on them, and a spreading Eurasian plague would tend to break the trade chain the disease moved along, particularly after devastating great population centers and radiating out to where trade and complex integrated societies were less prevalent. This meant that people who were indeed indirectly connected to say Mexico while living in say Missouri simply stopped seeing trade goods filtering in from Mexico--until some European explorer (DeSoto say) showed up in the region with disease-bearing pigs going feral and getting the diseases into the wildlife too--then that formerly connected region that became an isolated region would become a plague region.

So, for reasons having little to do directly with how human populations resist disease when these are in fact introduced, relating instead to why pre-agricultural civilizations did not probably suffer epidemic or endemic former epidemic diseases at all, disruption of a major population center would not necessarily propagate to other population centers. But here you seem to have substituted for the reality, which is that regions would be sheltered from exposure at all and then suddenly be exposed and experience quite rapid and large scale collapse, an oversimplified assumption the exposure spreads and people succumb at a rate averaged out between 1492 and say 1900. That gives a misleading picture of the dynamic. The "Seven Cities of Gold" game imagery in which a conquistador's mere appearance causes Native people to pop like soap bubbles is equally cartoonish of course, but it does not help to replace an oversensationalizing cartoon with a soothing understating cartoon. We have to look at what really happened.
An important component was that disease vectors were constantly re-introduced, as new colonists and their livestock arrived. Decade after decade, and making it more difficult to develop immunity.
If new colonists were introducing the same diseases, even mutated strains of the same diseases, over and over, you would be describing the opposite of how human immunity works. If you have a population already exposed to smallpox version A, and then ten times as many conquistadors and colonists show up with smallpox B, the remnant population surviving A ought to do relatively better against B despite the more intense exposure--the trends should offset each other, not saying that a sufficiently large invasion would not overwhelm even a surviving population quite heavily immunized by recent (past decade or so) exposure to the prior strain of germ.

But when you bear in mind that Eurasia was a damn cesspool of dozens or hundreds of separate diseases and each wave of colonization was liable to add a new one never seen in the New World before, so we are introducing bugs the Native remnant had never encountered at all, and that immunity tends to be specific to pathogens rather than some spectrum generic "disease resistance," then yes, this modified form of what you are saying does apply.
The decline in population was not due to diesease alone, but in combination with colonialism, that destroyed native societies and made them more vulnerable to the dieseases.
Strongly agreed to this, but I think you are still understating the degree to which the high novelty of infectious spreading disease to New World population skewed the outcome much worse against them. Europeans were trying to colonize places in the Old World too, in Africa and India--and they did accomplish devastating transformations, but these zones did not suffer the sort of demographic collapses the New World did. Massive diebacks, lost civilizations...yes. But magnitude matters here. We simply do not know how much less bad it would have been for various peoples if the Europeans had been behaving in a benign, considerate fashion.

But one thing we do know is, some of the known cases of extensive levels of development going poof to the point that in later centuries, it was entirely unclear to European descended people that extensive cultivation and specialization had been a real thing among the Native peoples did happen behind European backs as it were--one expedition did lasting and unintentional damage that acted as a slow fuse destroying people who were pretty vigorous when they were showing the European explorer-culprits the door.

One of these I have in mind is the various peoples of the Mississippi valley system, the culprit being DeSoto. He came, he trekked halfway up the river to Missouri or so, recorded all sorts of observations of rather populous and developed civilization, moved back to base and died, and neither his Spanish patrons nor any other European power followed up for a couple centuries. The next bunch of Europeans to take a good look at the region were associated with New France, missionaries and functionaries of the fur trade, and they saw what looked like primitive wilderness to them.

Another is something broadly similar only with even later and more peripheral European follow up later, in the Amazon river system. Again we had a bunch of Spanish backed explorer/conquistadores who reported being hotly pursued by legions of quite angry Native people, large towns, complex cultivation arrangements, etc, and managed to get the hell out with most of their skins largely intact to tell the tale. But either because these reports discouraged follow up or because they failed to report any resources to exploit the Spanish or rival Europeans pirating copies of these reports were keenly interested in, the upper river stretches were left largely alone for centuries, and again, when European-Atlantic metaculture zone people showed up to explore again, they saw nothing but "wilderness." But we know today, from satellite imagery leading to specific digs, that in fact the old Conquistadors were not lying about the huge populations and developed elaborate structures they reported. We know this now anyway, but back in the 1980s scholarship was blissfully unaware and all the text reported the Amazon as a primordial jungle.

So--while clearly the massacres and exploitations of conquerors bent on plunder and self-glorification were contributing factors in the collapse of those New World peoples that the conquistadors and their successors and rivals battened on to, and they witnessed the demographic collapse happening right before their pitiless (for the most part, the occasional De Casas to the contrary) eyes, it is also clear that devastation down to the level of the survivors relying on gathering and hunting exclusively, with the very low population density associated with that, without any European exploiters to keep kicking and pushing and stabbing into the bargain.

Again, it is wrong to exaggerate the vulnerability perhaps, but on the whole I think wronger to shrug it off and suggest that it was all the same as if these same diseases had been introduced in the Old World (to populations on the trade routes that is--isolated people there might be almost as bad off as Native Americans generally).
I won't speculate in how bad it would be in the Old World, it would have consequences akin to the Black Plague and the Justinian Plague, only on steroids, but not as bad as in the New World.
I don't think it is possible to have a symmetrical Columbian disease exchange as the OP describes it; we could have a situation where the New World has pretty much the same degree of diversity of nasty diseases as the Old World does, but the outcome would be a moderate intensification of the general background level of disease in both "worlds" quickly (well, over a century or so) stabilizing toward pretty much the same level as OTL. No massive dieback in the New World despite the total novelty of the particular pathogens, and none in the Old World either. That, given a radically different pattern of development in the New World, might be possible.

Having the Old World suffer the sorts of massive diebacks I fear your post tends to downplay as a real thing by saying, in caricature form anyway "it was all just exploitive colonialism," which ignores the evidence of major regional collapses without sustained European presence, no I don't think that can happen at all, for reasons I intend to say more about soon.
And the New World, ironically, would not be as bad as OTL New World, because it would not be colonised as hard when the colonizers are literally plagued by massive epidemics.

The New World might suffer badly despite the absence of the major demographic collapse additionally due to disease being quite novel here, just as the peoples of say Indonesia or West Africa did. And while I suppose a whole continental system's worth of totally novel diseases in Europe might knock the Europeans back for a century or so, and thus delay the mechanisms producing our modern era of global history, that is all that will happen. Perhaps Europe might be so hard hit by some particular bugs that some other society elsewhere in the world invents modern capitalism thus aborted in Europe, but I think if that will be in the cards it would require a more massive devastation of Europe than I think possible, and require really long periods of time for some other zone to cultivate the perfect storm of features that tipped Europe first to capitalism OTL. And once some region goes capitalist, I think it is pretty much destined to conquer the world. Without the sorts of windfalls the depopulated New World gave Europe ready to hand, elements of the process will be protracted, so between say a century or two delay in getting the global ball rolling and a general slowdown of processes that happened OTL between 1500 and 1800 adding say another two or three centuries, we might be some 400 years behind, offset by other peoples getting more effectively and with more global balance into the game in various niches the slower European expansion leaves open for them--more Japans basically, insinuating themselves in opportunistically. So call it 200-300 years delay overall, call it 250 for an average, and we have the clock back to the American Revolutionary period or something like it happening now, except not that because the colonies would be far older if slower spreading...but anyway something along the lines of the British-north European industrial revolution in tandem with something like the French political revolution would be ahead of us in the 21st century instead of most of 2 centuries behind us.

At this rate we might hit the next glaciation before global warming achieves much momentum.
 
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In this scenario, the Native Americans are still devestated by 90% population losses due to disease. However, Eurasia and Africa also suffer the same fate from American diseases.

What does the world look like after a catastrophe that makes the Black Death look tame? What does the new order in Europe, China, India, and the Middle East look like?

How concerned are you about realism?

For a lot of layered reasons, I don't think you can set up this scenario realistically. A population that can generate a suite of diseases as potent as the Eurasian mix as of 1500 CE is a population where those layers of disease resistance--general genetics, social preparation to handle major epidemics--that are generic and not specific to each pathogen strain are well developed. Also, there is as it were fratricide between different disease strains; a place that has a stew of half a dozen or more major epidemic killers lurking around will have the vulnerable population already culled back by the previous lethal round when a new one is added to the mix, limiting and slowing its impact, buying time and opportunity for immunity based both on general genetics and on specific exposure to spread and further inhibit the ability of some superbug to run rampant. So--just granting that the Americas have a disease suite quite as varied and lethal as the Old World, and every one of these a completely different germ than anything anyone in the Old World has any specific immunities to, when the New World bugs somehow reach the Old World, they don't find the "bonanza" of practically zero resistance the OTL Columbian exchange Old World bugs found in the New World; they find a broken field to try to run through. Granted that these bugs take the Eurasian-African populations totally off guard as far as pathogen-specific immunities go, they still have a limited field of fire as it were. And generically speaking, note it is not in the "interest" evolutionarily speaking of a pathogen strain to be floridly fatal; what the germs need is hosts to spread in, and tending to kill those hosts off tends to dead-end their spread. If something is 90 percent fatal to the people of Eurasia, how the hell do sailing ship crews survive to reach European or African shores with some not yet dead crew member still aboard to spread it to some poor sap who meets the drifting ship? More to the point, why would such a superbug exist in the first place?

The situation in the New World OTL came from the fact that many other layers of disease resistance aside from individual exposure history not having generated specific immunity also left the field wide open; bugs that were moderately fatal to most Old World populations were massively so for New World ones, because the situation was not symmetrical. For reasons you might not have any interest in seeing spelled out in great detail, the Americas lacked endemic plagues with epidemic potential, end report.

We can't realistically achieve your specified scenario.

We can realistically, perhaps, if we can go way way back many thousands of years prior to contact, somehow set the Americas up for just as plague-ridden a development trajectory as the Old World had, create a stew of nasty bugs for Columbus and gang to get novelly sick from, while the Eurasian suite is deepening the misery of the New World contactees. But I am holding that the OTL Old World situation was essentially in saturation; doubling the number of pathogen types would not double the degree of sickness. It would probably increase it, but more logarithmically than linearly I would think. There would therefore be, using OTL as a benchmark, a relative slowdown in development rates in every sense, and there would not be the windfall opportunities for Spain and later arrivals at the feast on the American carcasses that there were OTL. Europeans would be relatively weaker, maybe ten percent down, maybe 20 percent, while their OTL American victims, or rather the territory their victims were partially pre-vacated from by catastrophic disease, would be a lot more resistant to being overcome. Note that resistance could also take the form of cooption, that specific peoples and factions who OTL were in demographic collapse and rather distracted from considering their options might here drive some canny bargains and wind up largely on Team Exploiter, with intermarriage and other cultural exchange blending the European and American societies into hybrids. And therefore in this tougher, more competitive setting, European factions that did well OTL might find pickings a lot slimmer and go under in favor both of known from OTL winners who survive the gauntlet, unknown to us Europeans who seize opportunities their OTL counterparts either never had or muffed, and New World parties who OTL effectively did not exist at all.

Note also, that for the American disease pool to be comparably swarming with microparasites as the Old World was, American societies have to be quite different across the board, and probably in ways that make their overall tech level closer to Old World standards. Therefore there is probably as good a chance that the first contacts are not some Old World crew sailing west, but some New World crew sailing east instead.

So--to achieve your OP, exactly as you laid it out, we need it to be the case that the New World bugs lying in wait are superbugs for some reason, and yet capable of lying low enough in a ship for the crews to reliably make port before they suddenly start developing purple rashes that catch on fire or whatever. Even if we had some diabolical ASBs sitting in labs and cackling as they cook up tailor-made superplagues, it is a little hard to visualize just what sort of checklist of characteristics such a Satan Bug would have to have. Then of course the ASBs have to immunize the New World peoples against their biowar anti-Old World targeted supergerms.

At this point it is easier to abandon the germ theory of disease and just declare that God smites people with plague in judgement or for unfathomable divine Reasons and have the Lord decree a mirror imaging of what happens to New Worlders reflected in the Old World.

Then as others have noted, between the Old Worlders being as it were tripped up and crippled in their headlong OTL gold rush Drang Nach Westen and generally sapped and decimated, thus slowing down the process of exposure of New Worlders to the flood of new infections and buying time for some immunities to build up in the New World, the whole agony gets drawn out over a lot more centuries. It is possible that Europe, suffering tremendous population lost, falls below the critical mass of underlying conditions enabling capitalist systems to sustain themselves and falls back to its usual prior status as a global backwater. And if we have God or some other rough justice ASB crusaders continuing to man the control centers of ASB disease infliction, any other parties in the world that stumble into a comparable feverish rate of development potentially enabling them to do what the Europeans did OTL, they too will stumble onto the same plague landmines and be inhibited and possibly burned back in the same way, so in effect we've put the damper on global development across the board.

The upshot being, depending on how literally we take your OP, that the world is pretty much as it was in 1500, given a small increment in general tech levels, and that the New World which has some very sporadic contact with various Old World agencies, is rather rapidly, relative to the pace of development in the Old World before 1500, catching up on various technologies on a largely native, if massively undercut, basis.

If in fact the Old World were simply programmed to undergo ongoing but punctuated demographic collapses due to crazy superbugs popping up semirandomly, it is possible that the general average global state of the arts is rather behind OTL 1500 CE. Or rather, since useful knowledge rarely just disappears completely, we have a situation where decimated populations actually know somewhat more than in that year on the average, but the collapsed demographics means people have slipped back to simpler regional forms of organization and association politically and in terms of trade volume. And of course world population is far below its current level, indeed I would guess well below one billion overall, perhaps a third that or less.

The processes of contact having been slowed, if disease is on a scientific basis (which it couldn't have been, entirely) then the global repertoire of resistance has not bottomed out as OTL into a generic widespread habituation to a global pool of disease, and travelers are liable to stumble into zones where generic resistance to something local does not cover them and they die, generally.
 
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